DFT Calls for DPS Sick out - schools closed

[Zacha341]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/educ...ools/83813704/

What a Monday!

[Wesley Mouch]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/educ...ools/83813704/

What a Monday!

from the story:

"DPS emergency manager Judge Steven Rhodes told the union Saturday that unless the state Legislature approves sending more money to the district, there is not enough in the coffers to pay teachers their already-earned salaries after June 30. Summer school and extended special education services would also be canceled."

Since pay hikes can be retroactive, can the strike be made retroactive?

[Danny]

What a national disgrace and embarrassment for Detroit Public Schools. Gov. Rick " Caligula" Snyder, the geek and his Romans in Lansing can't even fix the struggling and dead broke school district. That include the Flint Water Crisis.

[SDCC]

What a national disgrace and embarrassment for Detroit Public Schools. Gov. Rick " Caligula" Snyder, the geek and his Romans in Lansing can't even fix the struggling and dead broke school district. That include the Flint Water Crisis.

It is in the national news. I have never felt as negatively about a governor as I do about Snyder...and he just returned from Europe

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...oblems-n565591

[Honky Tonk]

If people would keep their fingers out of the till, and use DPS money what it was intended for, you wouldn't have these problems. And you're right, it is a national disgrace.

[Johnnny5]

I don't blame them. After all these teachers have put up with over the years, the announcement last week that they might not even get paid would have been enough to make me "sick".

DPS is a disaster, but Lansing bears much of the blame for it. Instead of helping an ailing DPS years ago they sanctioned charters and School of Choice to siphon away students and funding. When that inevitably sent the district into a tailspin, Lansing sent their incompetent overseers to watch as what was left crumbled.

IMO this if far more incriminating on the State than the water crisis in Flint. That was a tragic accident brought on by incompetence. The destruction of DPS was completely foreseeable even from those at the top. Lansing didn't just ignore it, IMO they intentionally caused it.

[EastsideAl]

This is squarely in Snyder's lap. It's the result of of him working to please voters in other parts of the state and his fellow ideologues by working to cheap out on actually helping the most needful fellow citizens of our state. The "emergency manager" BS has now been shown up to be the giant scam a lot of us thought it was all along. The real function was to shield Lansing and allow them to pursue their ideological goals at our expense.

The victims are, of course, those awful teachers trying to do their jobs under incredibly difficult circumstances while still being able to pay their daily living expenses [[who the hell do they think they are?). And the biggest victims of all of course, as in Flint, are children who were unfortunate enough not to be born into Mr. Snyder's class and race, and therefore deserve nothing better than tainted water and dangerously crumbling schools, lest they cost Mr. Snyder's supporters a few more bucks.

[Honky Tonk]

This is squarely in Snyder's lap. And is yet another example of him working to please voters in other parts of the state and his fellow ideologues by actively working to cheap out on actually helping the most needful fellow citizens of our state. The "emergency manager" BS has now been shown up to be the giant scam a lot of us thought it was all along.

The victims are, of course, those awful teachers trying to do their jobs under incredibly difficult circumstances while still being able to pay their daily living expenses. And the biggest victims of all, as in Flint, are children who were unfortunate enough not to be born into Mr. Snyder's class and race, and therefore deserve nothing better than tainted water and dangerously crumbling schools, lest they cost Mr. Snyder's supporters a few more bucks.

14 To Be Charged In DPS Corruption Case

Have you seen these headlines, Al?

[EastsideAl]

14 To Be Charged In DPS Corruption Case


Have you seen these headlines, Al?

Of course I have. Not clear on what that has to do with not paying teachers for their work.

[BankruptcyGuy]

There's plenty of blame to go around:

1. Administration of this district has to be the worst I've ever seen, and it's not really that close. Why do we continue to have 97 schools with 47,000 kids? That's preposterous. I know it's hard to tell people that their local school is closing, but every dollar on utilities or an additional principal is one less dollar in the classroom.

2. The staff continue to drive their heads into the sand. There is not pot of money waiting for them at the end of the rainbow. There are no "stolen jewels" waiting to be returned. The state does not owe DPS any more money. The district has been a recipient district [[they get more than they generate for the state in tax revenue) for many, many years. You're all smart people--try being part of the solution. That means firings, pay cuts, and relaxed work rules.

[[On a side note, who could blame them for today's activity? If I wasn't getting paid, I wouldn't work either.)

3. Why did it take so long for a person like Judge Rhodes [[an obvious non-partisan) to be appointed as the EM? Why were people so incompetent chosen? This goes back many years.

4. Why did the people of the City of Detroit elect such a bunch of know-nothings to their local school board that they had to be taken over? Unfortunately, they were mostly shills for the local unions. And since salaries and benefits are the vast majority of expenses, I think the unions here have driven the district off the cliff.

Rather than place blame, it's time to start solving the problem. First, we should identify what that problem truly is. It is not "DPS is failing." It is "DPS [[and other schools) are failing to educate our kids." Until we direct energies toward increasing enrollment at successful schools and closing down unsuccessful ones, you are going no where.

I've read that the problem is charters. People in wealthier districts have a choice when their local school stinks--they can go to a private school or drive their kid elsewhere, or failing that, move. Poor people do not have any of those choices. So the drive to eliminate charters in poor areas will have the effect of increasing inequality: those who have money can access better choices; those who don't, can't.

[iheartthed]

There's plenty of blame to go around:

1. Administration of this district has to be the worst I've ever seen, and it's not really that close. Why do we continue to have 97 schools with 47,000 kids? That's preposterous. I know it's hard to tell people that their local school is closing, but every dollar on utilities or an additional principal is one less dollar in the classroom.

2. The staff continue to drive their heads into the sand. There is not pot of money waiting for them at the end of the rainbow. There are no "stolen jewels" waiting to be returned. The state does not owe DPS any more money. The district has been a recipient district [[they get more than they generate for the state in tax revenue) for many, many years. You're all smart people--try being part of the solution. That means firings, pay cuts, and relaxed work rules.

[[On a side note, who could blame them for today's activity? If I wasn't getting paid, I wouldn't work either.)

3. Why did it take so long for a person like Judge Rhodes [[an obvious non-partisan) to be appointed as the EM? Why were people so incompetent chosen? This goes back many years.

4. Why did the people of the City of Detroit elect such a bunch of know-nothings to their local school board that they had to be taken over? Unfortunately, they were mostly shills for the local unions. And since salaries and benefits are the vast majority of expenses, I think the unions here have driven the district off the cliff.

Rather than place blame, it's time to start solving the problem. First, we should identify what that problem truly is. It is not "DPS is failing." It is "DPS [[and other schools) are failing to educate our kids." Until we direct energies toward increasing enrollment at successful schools and closing down unsuccessful ones, you are going no where.

I've read that the problem is charters. People in wealthier districts have a choice when their local school stinks--they can go to a private school or drive their kid elsewhere, or failing that, move. Poor people do not have any of those choices. So the drive to eliminate charters in poor areas will have the effect of increasing inequality: those who have money can access better choices; those who don't, can't.

No, sorry. The problem is with the state. Say what you want about corruption and underperforming schools, but the system has deteriorated most due to state meddling. It started with the state messing with the public school funding mechanism in order to fund charter schools. Enrollment in Detroit Public Schools declined by over 70% in less than two decades, at a far faster rate than the city as a whole [[enrollment in DPS in 2000 was 167,000 vs today at 48,000). That would not be a bad thing if the charter schools were doing a better job of educating students than DPS did, but I think we both know that that is not the case.

[KJ5]

This is beyond terrible. Can't the teachers sue for breach of contract?

[Bobl]

This is beyond terrible. Can't the teachers sue for breach of contract?

Failing to pay for work done is a lockout. The teachers, who I support, would have been better represented if the one who commented on local TV had not made two grammatical errors during a ten second sound bite. The problems at DPS go beyond the fiscal ones.

[BankruptcyGuy]

No, sorry. The problem is with the state. Say what you want about corruption and underperforming schools, but the system has deteriorated most due to state meddling. It started with the state messing with the public school funding mechanism in order to fund charter schools. Enrollment in Detroit Public Schools declined by over 70% in less than two decades, at a far faster rate than the city as a whole [[enrollment in DPS in 2000 was 167,000 vs today at 48,000). That would not be a bad thing if the charter schools were doing a better job of educating students than DPS did, but I think we both know that that is not the case.

No offense, but that's absolute nonsense. The state funding mechanism changed in 1994 with Proposal A. There was no substantial change when charters were authorized. What Detroit [[and all other districts) lost was their monopoly on public education. In rich areas, parochial schools were already an option. Detroit parents with kids in poor schools had none.

The analogy is this: McDonald's is making really crappy hamburgers, so the solution is that we should shut down Burger King and Wendy's, because then hamburger lovers will be forced to buy McDonald's, and somehow that will make the product better. It's absurd.

Some charters are better than DPS. Some are worse. When too many parents pull their kids out of a charter, it is forced to close down. When too many parents pull their kids out of DPS, it's the State's fault?

[BankruptcyGuy]

No offense, but that's absolute nonsense. The state funding mechanism changed in 1994 with Proposal A. There was no substantial change when charters were authorized. What Detroit [[and all other districts) lost was their monopoly on public education. In rich areas, parochial schools were already an option. Detroit parents with kids in poor schools had none.

The analogy is this: McDonald's is making really crappy hamburgers, so the solution is that we should shut down Burger King and Wendy's, because then hamburger lovers will be forced to buy McDonald's, and somehow that will make the product better. It's absurd.

Some charters are better than DPS. Some are worse. When too many parents pull their kids out of a charter, it is forced to close down. When too many parents pull their kids out of DPS, it's the State's fault?

Apparently, Speaker Cotter reads DetroitYes.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...tter/84594570/

"“If Burger King is struggling to sell hamburgers, the answer is not to close down McDonald’s and Wendy’s,” Cotter said. “But rather, Burger King needs to raise their game. They need to improve the quality of the product they’re putting out there. ... We need to improve quality — and then the rest takes care of itself.”

p.s. I swear I am not Rep. Cotter.

[Towne Cluber]

The problem is with the state. Say what you want about corruption and underperforming schools, but the system has deteriorated most due to state meddling.

WRONG. The DPS system deteriorated most when the city deteriorated most. The "us" vs "The State" mentality is a very big part of the problem. As a city [[and as a people), we can either start getting our act together and joining with the rest of mainstream society or further suffer the consequences of trying to have it both ways.

[Wesley Mouch]

Whether you agree with teachers or students, its clear that DPS is a dysfunctional organization. Something about the way we deal with urban education doesn't work. Some here think that we only need to let unions rule the schools, and all will be well. Others believe the administration is the problem. The State of Michigan is blamed by some for not paying legacy costs/debt.

We can point fingers. But I don't hear much in the way of solutions. Are there any magic bullets that we're missing in Detroit?

[Honky Tonk]

Whether you agree with teachers or students, its clear that DPS is a dysfunctional organization. Something about the way we deal with urban education doesn't work. Some here think that we only need to let unions rule the schools, and all will be well. Others believe the administration is the problem. The State of Michigan is blamed by some for not paying legacy costs/debt.

We can point fingers. But I don't hear much in the way of solutions. Are there any magic bullets that we're missing in Detroit?

Plenty of bullets, but they're the usual run-of-the-mill, nothing magical about them.

[Wesley Mouch]

No, sorry. The problem is with the state. Say what you want about corruption and underperforming schools, but the system has deteriorated most due to state meddling. It started with the state messing with the public school funding mechanism in order to fund charter schools. Enrollment in Detroit Public Schools declined by over 70% in less than two decades, at a far faster rate than the city as a whole [[enrollment in DPS in 2000 was 167,000 vs today at 48,000). That would not be a bad thing if the charter schools were doing a better job of educating students than DPS did, but I think we both know that that is not the case.

Am I wrong that every Detroit parent could have sent their children to DPS? But they didn't. Was that also that State's fault? Or is it a sign that the parents made a choice for the betterment of their children? Is that not what we want?

I don't see why we care how DPS is doing. I only care about how the children are doing.

[Kevgoblue]

There's plenty of blame to go around:

1. Administration of this district has to be the worst I've ever seen, and it's not really that close. Why do we continue to have 97 schools with 47,000 kids? That's preposterous.......

2. ......The state does not owe DPS any more money. The district has been a recipient district [[they get more than they generate for the state in tax revenue) for many, many years. You're all smart people--try being part of the solution. That means firings, pay cuts, and relaxed work rules.

[[On a side note, who could blame them for today's activity? If I wasn't getting paid, I wouldn't work either.)

4. ......And since salaries and benefits are the vast majority of expenses, I think the unions here have driven the district off the cliff.

5. Rather than place blame, it's time to start solving the problem. First, we should identify what that problem truly is. It is not "DPS is failing." It is "DPS [[and other schools) are failing to educate our kids." Until we direct energies toward increasing enrollment at successful schools and closing down unsuccessful ones, you are going no where.

6. .... Poor people do not have any of those choices. So the drive to eliminate charters in poor areas will have the effect of increasing inequality: those who have money can access better choices; those who don't, can't.

1. 47,000 kids in 97 schools. Average size of the schools being roughly 500 students. What is the average number of students per school in the state? You think it's greater than 500?

2. The city of Detroit was a donor city I'd guess from the 1940's thru the early 21st century. 60+ yrs. In that period of time was anyone calling for suburban or rural districts to take pay cuts, close schools, and ignore work rules?

4. Last I checked, the teachers in the districts of Grosse Pointe, Birmingham, Troy and Northville are unionized employees as well. Shouldn't their salaries and benefits be driving those communities' districts over the cliff as well?

5. Sounds good, but is it the district itself that is failing to educate the kids? Or is DPS [[and other schools) failing because the kids that attend the schools are some of the most socially and economically disadvantaged in the region? Allowing certain preferred charter schools to cherry pick out the cream of the crop does nothing to address the needs of the public schools which must accept the lesser achieving children.

6. If charter schools were such a panacea for improved educational opportunities, then why aren't the people of the more affluent suburbs [[who more firmly embrace the importance of education) clamoring for for-profit charters in their districts?

The 500 lb gorilla in the room that continues to be ignored when discussing schools is the fact that Detroit [[and therefore DPS) has been the recipient of 50+ years of continual disinvestment. Disinvestment in the form of jobs, tax revenues, and stable families.

[BankruptcyGuy]

1. 47,000 kids in 97 schools. Average size of the schools being roughly 500 students. What is the average number of students per school in the state? You think it's greater than 500?

2. The city of Detroit was a donor city I'd guess from the 1940's thru the early 21st century. 60+ yrs. In that period of time was anyone calling for suburban or rural districts to take pay cuts, close schools, and ignore work rules?

4. Last I checked, the teachers in the districts of Grosse Pointe, Birmingham, Troy and Northville are unionized employees as well. Shouldn't their salaries and benefits be driving those communities' districts over the cliff as well?

5. Sounds good, but is it the district itself that is failing to educate the kids? Or is DPS [[and other schools) failing because the kids that attend the schools are some of the most socially and economically disadvantaged in the region? Allowing certain preferred charter schools to cherry pick out the cream of the crop does nothing to address the needs of the public schools which must accept the lesser achieving children.

6. If charter schools were such a panacea for improved educational opportunities, then why aren't the people of the more affluent suburbs [[who more firmly embrace the importance of education) clamoring for for-profit charters in their districts?

The 500 lb gorilla in the room that continues to be ignored when discussing schools is the fact that Detroit [[and therefore DPS) has been the recipient of 50+ years of continual disinvestment. Disinvestment in the form of jobs, tax revenues, and stable families.

1. I think that the average across districts is closer to 700 per, because high schools and middle schools drive that number up.

2. No, that's not true. Remember that before 1994, taxes for schools were collected and spent locally. Detroit's taxes went to Detroit schools. So no, Detroit was never a donor to suburban or out-state school districts.

4. Most of those districts have a) reduced the size of administrative staffs, b) privatized non-core services, and c) instituted health care cost sharing that makes the price paid by the district less than the hard cap. I don't know if Detroit has done any of those things.

That being said, if the debt were paid by the state [[the ultimate responsible party, and why a DPS bankruptcy would be meaningless), DPS would have a $50MM or so operating surplus.

I want to make this clear: the lion's share of the blame goes on DPS administration. The teachers are trying to do their jobs, but they have lousy management and union leadership that has different goals than they do.

5. Charter schools can't cherry pick. Any parent can apply to any charter school. The parent has to provide their own transportation, and there is a lottery if the openings are oversubscribed. Don't see the "cherry picking" argument.

6. Charter schools open up where the public school options are poor. It's not limited to Detroit; there are plenty in inner ring suburbs. And there are no laws preventing charters from opening in wealthier suburbs; take, for example, Plymouth Scholars. More charters do not open in those areas because the operators cannot guarantee that they will get the mass of students necessary to operate the school. They can't guarantee that, because the public school options are still a reasonable choice. Not so in Detroit.

[Bigdd]

There's plenty of blame to go around:

1. Administration of this district has to be the worst I've ever seen, and it's not really that close. Why do we continue to have 97 schools with 47,000 kids? That's preposterous. I know it's hard to tell people that their local school is closing, but every dollar on utilities or an additional principal is one less dollar in the classroom.

2. The staff continue to drive their heads into the sand. There is not pot of money waiting for them at the end of the rainbow. There are no "stolen jewels" waiting to be returned. The state does not owe DPS any more money. The district has been a recipient district [[they get more than they generate for the state in tax revenue) for many, many years. You're all smart people--try being part of the solution. That means firings, pay cuts, and relaxed work rules.

[[On a side note, who could blame them for today's activity? If I wasn't getting paid, I wouldn't work either.)

3. Why did it take so long for a person like Judge Rhodes [[an obvious non-partisan) to be appointed as the EM? Why were people so incompetent chosen? This goes back many years.

4. Why did the people of the City of Detroit elect such a bunch of know-nothings to their local school board that they had to be taken over? Unfortunately, they were mostly shills for the local unions. And since salaries and benefits are the vast majority of expenses, I think the unions here have driven the district off the cliff.

Rather than place blame, it's time to start solving the problem. First, we should identify what that problem truly is. It is not "DPS is failing." It is "DPS [[and other schools) are failing to educate our kids." Until we direct energies toward increasing enrollment at successful schools and closing down unsuccessful ones, you are going no where.

I've read that the problem is charters. People in wealthier districts have a choice when their local school stinks--they can go to a private school or drive their kid elsewhere, or failing that, move. Poor people do not have any of those choices. So the drive to eliminate charters in poor areas will have the effect of increasing inequality: those who have money can access better choices; those who don't, can't.

Well said. Average public school size in the USA is 600 students per. So step one would be closing another 17-18 schools.

But you forgot a biggie,.... THE PARENTS.
A lot of a child's education should be done at home. That's also where the discipline comes from.

And regarding finances,... 47% of Detroit residents don't pay property tax.

Even still,.. Detroit schools don't lack for money. The average spending for K-12 students in Michigan is $9,500 per pupil. BUT IN DETROIT,.. it's $14,000 per.

So Detroit gets much more money per pupil than pretty much anywhere else,... in spite of 47% of residents not paying their taxes.

This isn't the governor's problem,.. it lies with the teacher's union and the management of DPS.

[Shai_Hulud]

Even still,.. Detroit schools don't lack for money. The average spending for K-12 students in Michigan is $9,500 per pupil. BUT IN DETROIT,.. it's $14,000 per.

Something like 30% of that goes straight to debt payment. Not to payroll, not to class room, not to maintenance. I believe I read that it was higher than that at one point but can't locate that at the moment.

Subtract that from the total and DPS is slightly under the average.

Then subtract the extra legacy costs, transportation costs, special needs instruction and the bloated administration, and it's not hard to see why this situation never gets any better. Hint, it's not the teachers that are the problem.

The Detroit district’s payments on old debts — some dating back a decade or longer— amount to $3,019 of the $7,296 per student grant the district will receive from the state this school year, a Detroit News analysis of public records shows.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/education/2016/01/04/detroit-schools-debt-payments/78240726/

Detroit Public Schools is largely hamstrung by high administrative and special education costs and debts. Nearly $1,200 in district money for every student goes toward paying off past operating deficits the district won't escape until 2022, at the earliest.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/education/2015/03/26/detroit-schools-finances-free-fall/70469838/

[BankruptcyGuy]

Then subtract the extra legacy costs, transportation costs, special needs instruction and the bloated administration, and it's not hard to see why this situation never gets any better. Hint, it's not the teachers that are the problem.

DPS has no extra legacy costs. Health care and pensions are all state administrated, unlike for the City of Detroit employees.

They do owe the State back payment for pension obligations. Don't know how or why that was allowed to continue. It isn't allowed in any other district, rich or poor.

[swingline]

Well said. Average public school size in the USA is 600 students per. So step one would be closing another 17-18 schools.

But you forgot a biggie,.... THE PARENTS.
A lot of a child's education should be done at home. That's also where the discipline comes from.

And regarding finances,... 47% of Detroit residents don't pay property tax.

Even still,.. Detroit schools don't lack for money. The average spending for K-12 students in Michigan is $9,500 per pupil. BUT IN DETROIT,.. it's $14,000 per.

So Detroit gets much more money per pupil than pretty much anywhere else,... in spite of 47% of residents not paying their taxes.

This isn't the governor's problem,.. it lies with the teacher's union and the management of DPS.

One of the biggest reasons the taxpayers of Detroit and ultimately the whole State are not getting their money’s worth out of the $14k/per student being spent is that hundreds of millions are being spent to pay back relatively recent bond debt that was taken on to build or renovate dozens of buildings that are now abandoned, scrapped and worthless. Something like $1.8 billion [[with a B) was raised and spent by DPS from the early 1990s through about 2004 on these new buildings and renovations. Local elected leadership reasonably sought to improve achievement at least in part by improving facilities, many of which had been abysmally maintained for many years.

So what did the State do to assist this effort? Before the new paint had barely dried and well before meaningful results could be measured, it completely undermined DPS’ [[expensive) effort by effectively eliminating limits on new charter school openings. Good old competition will shape up those lazy Detroit educators, right?

With the floodgates opened, DPS started bleeding 15,000 students or more per year to charters. Without students and the foundation grant funds that go with them, it became impossible to service the new debt and properly educate the remaining children at the same time. Thanks to policies created and promoted by politicians in Lansing, DPS became insolvent. Sure, leadership and administration at DPS could have been better while under local control. But even the best leadership in the country would never have made the numbers work while at the same time confronting 15-20% annual enrollment declines. To repeat, because of Lansing’s [[not Detroit’s) decision to open up education to the glories of “competition” and the “marketplace,” hundreds of millions of borrowed dollars were spent on facilities that now lie in actual ruins. Given that these policies came from Lansing, it seems only fair that now taxpayers across the entire state will share in the pain of repayment.