Stolen truck chase ends in fiery crash

**R8RBOB** · August-13-09, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Don't need to look it up. I have a car. I make left turns everyday."

If you feel you have the right to pull out in front of people [[You don't) and cause an accident, it will be your fault. I've been in court and heard it straight from a judge. You never have the right of way unless you have a green arrow, and you still must use caution for people making right turns. Call any traffic court and tell them you were involved in an accident making a left turn and see what they tell you. It's your fault for failing to yield. If the car was traveling at a high rate of speed, you'll need witnesses and have to prove it, and it will be your fault until you do so.

Here is the Michigan traffic law:

MCL 257.612:
...
[[a) If the signal exhibits a green indication, vehicular traffic facing the signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at that place prohibits either turn. Vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians and bicyclists lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time the signal is exhibited.

Back to the accident, this is a case where two idiots crossed paths.

Newsflash: There was no left-lane turning signal. I can tell some people like yourself don't read previous postings so here is an earlier post from me.

"Both vehicles had the green light. Since there was no left turn light, the driver of the red minivan had the right to turn provided she could do it fast enough. I would suspect like most drivers today she was on her phone and could not gaze the speed of the truck."

Again and please read before you copy and paste traffic law. If there was a left-lane signal light [[green arrow) and the light was blinking red then the driver of the red van could make that turn as long as she don't hit anyone. If it was solid and she made that turn before it turns green, she is wrong...BUT there was NO LEFT-LANE TURNING SIGNAL which means that turning left is all judgment.

What do I mean by judgment? If you are in a left-lane to turn left [[example of this: driving down Grand River to turn left on Outer Drive. No left-lane turn signal)and the light is green you have wait until traffic is clear for you to make the turn. This is all judgment because you have estimate the time for a car to reach the intersection. This is judgment. GOT IT?????

**Ray1936** · August-13-09, 04:29 PM

EastsideAl said:

"As the video opens up the van is going west on Michigan somewhere around the Fisher Fwy. [[75), then north on Livernois for awhile, entering southbound onto the Jefferies [[96), exiting at the W. Grand Blvd. exit going south on the service drive, then turning east onto McGraw, where that street ends turning south onto12th St. [[Rosa Parks) and going against the traffic [[which is one-way northbound) all the way down to Michigan, then back onto Michigan westbound until... BOOM right in front of Telway at Martin."

You nailed it, Al. I wasn't sure where that tape started at until your post, and then I was able to GoogleMap it and you're right on the button. That's one of the damndest police chase video's I've ever seen, and I think I've seen 'em all.

**Captain Midnite** · August-13-09, 05:24 PM

I know this happened early AM, but video shows a lot of eight-lane roads and no traffic.

Bearinabox · August-13-09, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Midnite

I know this happened early AM, but video shows a lot of eight-lane roads and no traffic.

Someone's new in town...

**reddog289** · August-13-09, 09:57 PM

Was almost late for work watching the chase, I think One Shot got it right in this sue happy society. Good thing no one was killed besides the perp.

**rajdet** · August-14-09, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Midnite

I know this happened early AM, but video shows a lot of eight-lane roads and no traffic.

I guess quite a few folks have no job to go to these days.

**ggores** · August-14-09, 01:22 PM

Has the driver of the van said ANYthing about this yet? And, if she hasn't, then is there any reasonable explanation why she hasn't been talked to by blood-hound media? Was she drunk or stoned? I mean, look at the picture, how can it successfully be argued that she misjudged the approaching pickem' up truck? The video shows that she pulled into her turn very lumbering, in other words - at a slow acceleration. I'm just curious. Until she is heard from, then I'd say that it's totally plausible that she intentionally meant to "ease" into this mad truck driver and maybe be a hero and the cops told her she was stupid as hell and that they'd charge her with drunk and stoned driving if she told this to the media, thereby inspiring others to maybe do the same thing one day. I heard 97.1 this morning say that they were broadcasting the chase as it was happening. And then I turned it. Off.

**Detroitnerd** · August-14-09, 01:37 PM

She didn't "misjudge" anything because she didn't judge anything. That's how people drive in town: Like they're not paying attention at all.

**jj84** · August-14-09, 02:07 PM

If you watch the video she actually accelerates into the truck, she starts off slow, then realizes the truck is going faster than what she thought, accelerates to get out of its way and by that time the truck is on top of her. She misjudged the speed of the truck, no one turning expects the vehicle on Michigan Ave to be coming toward them at 80+MPH.

Also the Fire wasn't caused when the truck hit the pole, it started when it hit the other truck in the driveway [[Got to love DVR for stuff like this)

As for the driver good riddance -- he put 1,000's of other people's lives at risk running, my theory with high speed chases is at the end pull them out and put a bullet in their head. They put everyone at risk because they are a dumb***.

**Gannon** · August-14-09, 02:19 PM

Telway was enjoying brisk business during the late-lunch hour, and they are already fixing the pole outside.

All ya gotta do it get on the TeeVee and your city services are rendered! [[although this is likely a county or state maintenance thing, I didn't look too closely at the trucks).

Their sliders are better than White Castle's, by far!

Cheers

**Meddle** · August-14-09, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Midnite

I know this happened early AM, but video shows a lot of eight-lane roads and no traffic.

Originally Posted by rajdet

I guess quite a few folks have no job to go to these days.

Originally Posted by jj84

As for the driver good riddance -- he put 1,000's of other people's lives at risk running, ...

Thousands?

Or dozens?

**Bigb23** · August-14-09, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by jj84

As for the driver good riddance -- he put 1,000's of other people's lives at risk running, ...

Did you watch the video ? That was only 11 minutes of the total chase from downriver. It certainly wasn't dozens. I'd say at least 1000 +

**Rocko** · August-14-09, 09:22 PM

Glad the classic little Teleway survived unscathed, if that truck would have been closer to the sidewalk, I shudder to think about the loss of human life, and on a much less important scale, one of Detroit's most classic burger joints. That 11 minute video was unbelieveable.... all that distance down 12th Street!

I'm impressed that that streetlight was already being repaired....even though those excellent looking streetlights were erected along Michigan between Wyoming and Livernois less than three years ago, several others have been damaged or demolished in some way, and most haven't been repaired yet.

I do need to say, though, that I was distressed, albeit unsurprised, by the lack of coverage of this incident in the Detroit News. I patronized my favorite downtown paper box this morning with the hope of learning more about this one single event, and found a little quarter page segment which was generally unhelpful in shedding light on any more details. Too bad, really.

**Thames** · August-14-09, 09:28 PM

This is from the article that gnome linked:

"Witnesses say the woman driving the minivan attempted to make an illegal turn on Martin, but according to police, she is not at fault. The man who died in the crash and was driving the stolen pickup is responsible. Police say because he was speeding, he no longer had the right of way."

**Sstashmoo** · August-14-09, 10:31 PM

Quote: "Police say because he was speeding, he no longer had the right of way.""

Are they implying the minivan had the right of way making a left turn? Are they implying if you're speeding people can legally pull out in front of you?

**R8RBOB** · August-14-09, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Police say because he was speeding, he no longer had the right of way.""

Are they implying the minivan had the right of way making a left turn? Are they implying if you're speeding people can legally pull out in front of you?

Dude, give it up. You are attempting to make lemonade out of oranges.

**Sstashmoo** · August-14-09, 11:26 PM

No wonder people drive like morons around here, they haven't a clue about traffic law.

Stosh · August-14-09, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Police say because he was speeding, he no longer had the right of way.""

Are they implying the minivan had the right of way making a left turn? Are they implying if you're speeding people can legally pull out in front of you?

Yes. See above posts for more info.

Edit: Never mind, I'll bring it to you.

Reprising my earlier post that covered this:

Quote:
From the Michigan Vehicle Code:

[[5) The driver of a vehicle traveling at an unlawful speed shall forfeit a right of way which the driver might otherwise have under this section.
In other words, for the driver of the truck, too bad, you lose anyway.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-649
And there's plenty of witnesses as to the rate of speed as well. Ask the cops.

**R8RBOB** · August-14-09, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

No wonder people drive like morons around here, they haven't a clue about traffic law.

You know I said the same thing to my neighbor on Wednesday prior to the death of the truck thief.

**48202** · August-15-09, 06:56 PM

I just watched the video.

Clearly this was a controlled demolition. Explosives were placed in the light pole. Any evidence to the contrary is a cover-up.

**Russix** · August-16-09, 04:15 AM

They interviewed the mini-van driver on TV Friday night. I'm pretty convinced that this middle-aged woman with thick glasses saw the truck coming but couldn't tell that it was traveling 3 times the speed limit and believed she had enough time to clear the intersection. As far as her not seeing the Police in pursuit, the oncoming vehicles don't begin to stop nor does the large semi pullover until the evading truck is a good distance past them and they are already moving out of frame. Also the lead cruiser in pursuit doesn't have lights on its roof, assuming its right on the tail of the truck; it would not be easy to see what was coming at you.

**Sstashmoo** · August-16-09, 10:46 AM

"3 times the speed limit"?

That truck doesn't appear to be going much over 50 in that video.

**Locke09** · August-16-09, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Yes. See above posts for more info.

Edit: Never mind, I'll bring it to you.

Reprising my earlier post that covered this:

Quote:
From the Michigan Vehicle Code:

[[5) The driver of a vehicle traveling at an unlawful speed shall forfeit a right of way which the driver might otherwise have under this section.
In other words, for the driver of the truck, too bad, you lose anyway.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-649
And there's plenty of witnesses as to the rate of speed as well. Ask the cops.

Yes, but there is that little qualifier "under this section". The section refers to the rules at intersections when traffic is coming from "two different highways". The right of way waiver for speeding applies only to that section so it applies only to that instance.

There is another section specifically covering left turns at intersections, that does not contain that speeding exemption [[see below). Nor can I find any language in the code overall that says the speeding exemption covers all right of way issues. If it did, you wouldn't need that "under this section" clause. I'm not saying there isn't one, just that I looked through it and didn't see a universal "too bad if you're speeding" clause.

"257.650 Right-of-way; turning left at intersection; violation as civil infraction.

Sec. 650.
[[1) The driver of a vehicle within an intersection intending to turn to the left shall yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard; but the driver, having so yielded and having given a signal when and as required by this chapter, may make the left turn and the drivers of all other vehicles approaching the intersection from the opposite direction shall yield the right of way to the vehicle making the left turn. At an intersection at which a traffic signal is located, a driver intending to make a left turn shall permit vehicles bound straight through in the opposite direction which are waiting a go signal to pass through the intersection before making the turn.
[[2) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction."

Granted the truck wasn't "waiting", but this section is more applicable than the other referenced section which seems more applicable for intersections with only stop signs.

Why does this matter? Well, I need to know if I'm driving properly. I always wait until I see no traffic coming from the opposite direction, or the light turns red [[at which point the law says it's okay for me to complete my turn), or the traffic is so far back that I can barely see it. I don't even feel safe turning when the light turns yellow, because people run yellow lights all the time.

I feel like the police just told everyone that you can go ahead and turn left if you think you can beat the oncoming traffic. Maybe you should also speed across a train track if you think the train is moving slowly. I think they have caused confusion and it should be clarified. Don't charge her, but at least confirm that you should not make a left until traffic has cleared or stopped.

**Russix** · August-16-09, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

"3 times the speed limit"?

That truck doesn't appear to be going much over 50 in that video.

50 Mph is pretty much the normal speed on Michigan Ave. The farther you are away from an object the slower the angle changes between you and it. The truck clears the distance of 6 light poles in secs. Measure that distance or count the car lengths the police car takes to stop. Figuring the police car realizes the chase is over when he passes the exploding truck. Takes 8+ car lengths to stop. 80-90 mph. Anyone else notice the tire flying off the truck and hitting the police car?

Stosh · August-16-09, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Locke09

Yes, but there is that little qualifier "under this section". The section refers to the rules at intersections when traffic is coming from "two different highways". The right of way waiver for speeding applies only to that section so it applies only to that instance.

There is another section specifically covering left turns at intersections, that does not contain that speeding exemption [[see below). Nor can I find any language in the code overall that says the speeding exemption covers all right of way issues. If it did, you wouldn't need that "under this section" clause. I'm not saying there isn't one, just that I looked through it and didn't see a universal "too bad if you're speeding" clause.

"257.650 Right-of-way; turning left at intersection; violation as civil infraction.

Sec. 650.
[[1) The driver of a vehicle within an intersection intending to turn to the left shall yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction which is within the intersection or so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard; but the driver, having so yielded and having given a signal when and as required by this chapter, may make the left turn and the drivers of all other vehicles approaching the intersection from the opposite direction shall yield the right of way to the vehicle making the left turn. At an intersection at which a traffic signal is located, a driver intending to make a left turn shall permit vehicles bound straight through in the opposite direction which are waiting a go signal to pass through the intersection before making the turn.
[[2) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction."

Granted the truck wasn't "waiting", but this section is more applicable than the other referenced section which seems more applicable for intersections with only stop signs.

Why does this matter? Well, I need to know if I'm driving properly. I always wait until I see no traffic coming from the opposite direction, or the light turns red [[at which point the law says it's okay for me to complete my turn), or the traffic is so far back that I can barely see it. I don't even feel safe turning when the light turns yellow, because people run yellow lights all the time.

I feel like the police just told everyone that you can go ahead and turn left if you think you can beat the oncoming traffic. Maybe you should also speed across a train track if you think the train is moving slowly. I think they have caused confusion and it should be clarified. Don't charge her, but at least confirm that you should not make a left until traffic has cleared or stopped.

I suppose that you are right, at least in terms of the left turn. It seems as if they've applied this rather broadly. But, they've made their choice.