Stolen truck chase ends in fiery crash

**R8RBOB** · August-13-09, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote:'Not going to happen because they both had the right of way."

Never have the right of way making a left.

I was commented yesterday that today's drivers don't know the rules of the road. There was no left-turning light at that intersection which means the minivan could turn left at anytime during the green light as long as there was no incoming traffic arriving at the intersection at the same time.

Basically, it is a judgment call on if you can make the turn before any incoming traffic arrives before you make the turn. The lady in the van made a wrong judment call but she was in her right to make that turn.

**FlyingJ** · August-13-09, 01:03 PM

gnome Anyone know how that works ... if your car is involved in an accident can you be held liable?

I don't have No Fault but my insurance guy told me "We just consider it a matter between the cars-not the drivers" So call it The Pixar Approach, unless a criminal clause invalidates it...

**Ray1936** · August-13-09, 01:13 PM

Gnome, I was in a few. I can recall three off the top of my head. We tried to box 'em in back then [[1960s), and they guy usually just rammed his way out. The pit maneuver was unknown back then, unless it was applied accidentally.

Whenever I see tape of a chase where a police car gets involved in the contact, my mind flashes back to hours and hours of paperwork.

I remember on one the rear quarter panel of our 61 Dodge Dart got crumpled. As I was about to start all the paper work, one of my Sergeants [[bless him) said, "why don't you just see if you can find an alley garage somewhere to bump it out and spray paint some black on it?" We did just that.

Getting back to that tape, did'ja notice him going the wrong way up 12th street? Or Rosa Parks, or whatever it's called now.

**Fnemecek** · August-13-09, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

While the van driver was heading east, into the morning sun, so I'll bet ya that played a major role in the accident; however, that's why you pull over to the right when the bubble tops are flashing. From the other witnesses the truck was being pursued by Taylor, Detroit and State Police ... that's a lot of blue and red lights to miss...even if they were backlit by the low in the sky morning sun.

I'm trying to imagine this from the perspective of the van driver. Would he or she have been able to see the flashing police lights if they were behind the truck? Wouldn't the truck have obscured the van driver's view of anything behind said truck?

**TKshreve** · August-13-09, 01:14 PM

All these people here arguing whether the driver of the van is liable or not makes me sick.

Why try to defend a thief who was in the act of committing a crime? It will only strengthen other crooks ambitions to commit crimes in the future.

Sorry he died, but in the end, he was a drain on society and probably would have gone on to commit further crimes. Most likely upon honest, taxpaying citizens.

Plus - The video suggested that the police backed off the chase. So the van driver probably did not see the lights.

**Sstashmoo** · August-13-09, 01:24 PM

Quote: "The lady in the van made a wrong judment call but she was in her right to make that turn."

Not to be argumentative, but look it up, she never at no time had the right of way. When a driver approaches in a left turn lane, they must yield the right of way to oncoming traffic. If she pulls out in front of that driver regardless of her judgment, and causes an accident it will be her fault. The minivan in this case was clearly at fault.

**R8RBOB** · August-13-09, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "The lady in the van made a wrong judment call but she was in her right to make that turn."

Not to be argumentative, but look it up, she never at no time had the right of way. When a driver approaches in a left turn lane, they must yield the right of way to oncoming traffic. If she pulls out in front of that driver regardless of her judgment, and causes an accident it will be her fault. The minivan in this case was clearly at fault.

Don't need to look it up. I have a car. I make left turns everyday. Perhaps you should go out and make a left turn like that lady did this morning and you will see why she was in the right to make that turn. All I can tell you is: judgment call.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-09, 01:32 PM

Flogging a dead horse by now, but, yeah, that van driver was your typical dumbass, I don't care what's going on, I'm taking a call right now, Detroit driver. I don't even see a turn signal -- that's at least a moving violation.

**ejames01** · August-13-09, 01:34 PM

Wow! That happened down the street from my job. Good thing I took the rest of the week off.

**Novine** · August-13-09, 01:37 PM

Google map route?

**ejames01** · August-13-09, 01:44 PM

People in the area generally do not follow ANY traffic laws.

I've seen speeding, running red lights, no use of turn signals, passing in the center lane, using corner parking lots to circumvent traffic lights. You have to be very careful driving in that area.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Flogging a dead horse by now, but, yeah, that van driver was your typical dumbass, I don't care what's going on, I'm taking a call right now, Detroit driver. I don't even see a turn signal -- that's at least a moving violation.

**wolverine** · August-13-09, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "The lady in the van made a wrong judment call but she was in her right to make that turn."

Not to be argumentative, but look it up, she never at no time had the right of way. When a driver approaches in a left turn lane, they must yield the right of way to oncoming traffic. If she pulls out in front of that driver regardless of her judgment, and causes an accident it will be her fault. The minivan in this case was clearly at fault.

That's what you say, but that's not what the law says in this type of situation.....and probably most situations considering many drivers go faster than the speed limit. Besides, all the other driver [[making the left) has to do is claim you were speeding, and all fault it off. I mentioned that in my previous post, plus I witnessed an accident this past winter of this same sort of thing....no one was ticketed.

Why even bother to bring it up in this thread. The video is proof the driver of the stolen vehicle was being reckless.

**Meddle** · August-13-09, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Not going to happen because they both had the right of way.

When an EV is approaching with lights and siren, there is no 'both have the right of way' in a situation like this.

**EastsideAl** · August-13-09, 02:01 PM

Let's see if I get the route of this chase right from the longer video that Ray posted above.

As the video opens up the van is going west on Michigan somewhere around the Fisher Fwy. [[75), then north on Livernois for awhile, entering southbound onto the Jefferies [[96), exiting at the W. Grand Blvd. exit going south on the service drive, then turning east onto McGraw, where that street ends turning south onto12th St. [[Rosa Parks) and going against the traffic [[which is one-way northbound) all the way down to Michigan, then back onto Michigan westbound until... BOOM right in front of Telway at Martin.

I don't see more than one police car pursuing the pickup anyplace in this video, and always at some considerable distance. So I think it's very likely that the lady in the minivan didn't see or hear the police at all. While it may not be the smartest left turn she ever made, I do think that she probably just misjudged the extreme rate of speed at which the truck was traveling, perhaps in a bit of early morning stupor on her way to get some of that famous Telway coffee. In any event, that guy was on the wrong side of the road or driving against traffic, apparently purposefully, for much of his run, blowing off red lights and stop signs and narrowly missing several other collisions, so it really does seem to be blaming the victim to minutely examine the actions of a citizen who has gotten caught up in a situation like this because of some other person's criminal, heedless, and extremely dangerous behavior.

**Meddle** · August-13-09, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

I'm trying to imagine this from the perspective of the van driver. Would he or she have been able to see the flashing police lights if they were behind the truck? Wouldn't the truck have obscured the van driver's view of anything behind said truck?

How far back was MSP? It's pretty hard NOT to see 2 rotating 6in aircraft landing lights behind a red lens, not to mention hearing a 200watt electronic siren.

**wolverine** · August-13-09, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

When an EV is approaching with lights and siren, there is no 'both have the right of way' in a situation like this.

That is absolutely true, but personally I'm working off of the angle that the chase by police was called off [[as the newcast says) You can see for blocks in one moment there are no vehicles in pursuit.

**R8RBOB** · August-13-09, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

When an EV is approaching with lights and siren, there is no 'both have the right of way' in a situation like this.

You had to have your say, I suppose. I will let you have the final word.

**wolverine** · August-13-09, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

How far back was MSP? It's pretty hard NOT to see 2 rotating 6in aircraft landing lights behind a red lens, not to mention hearing a 200watt electronic siren.

Now, you're just being ridiculous. They were pretty far back if even on the same street

EDIT: after looking at it again, there was a patrol car about 120 feet behind, so yes very likely the driver would have heard and seen sirens. My apologies.

**Meddle** · August-13-09, 02:37 PM

They just showed it on Headline News, and I have to admit it LOOKS like the van driver rammed the pickup. That may not be the case, but that's the appearance.

In most intersection accidents, one of three things happen:

-Turning vehicle gets broadsided.
-Vehicles hit more or less head-on.
-Vehicles try to avoid each other at the last second and hit in glancing blows.

In this one, the van hit the passing truck dead square in the middle, as if it turned deliberately into the truck. Could certainly have been pure bad luck and timing though.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-09, 02:45 PM

OK, we're seeing some different things here. Some people see the van driver as lucky. Some see her as a hero. I see her as the sort of driver I'm used to dealing with over and over again in Detroit: an idiotic loser too spaced-out to pay attention.

**One Shot** · August-13-09, 03:12 PM

Jeffrey Fieger should get this one. Two maybe three lawsuits:
1. Chevy pickup exploding gastank case again
2. Wrongful death caused by police chase.
3. Some type of death lawsuit agains the lady that turned in front of him.

Honestly how did the lady not see him coming? There was no traffic blocking her view. He got what all criminals deserve.

**R8RBOB** · August-13-09, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by One Shot

Jeffrey Fieger should get this one. Two maybe three lawsuits:
1. Chevy pickup exploding gastank case again
2. Wrongful death caused by police chase.
3. Some type of death lawsuit agains the lady that turned in front of him.

Honestly how did the lady not see him coming? There was no traffic blocking her view. He got what all criminals deserve.

She was probably talking on her cell or she was texting and was not paying attention.

**Sstashmoo** · August-13-09, 03:29 PM

Quote: "Don't need to look it up. I have a car. I make left turns everyday."

If you feel you have the right to pull out in front of people [[You don't) and cause an accident, it will be your fault. I've been in court and heard it straight from a judge. You never have the right of way unless you have a green arrow, and you still must use caution for people making right turns. Call any traffic court and tell them you were involved in an accident making a left turn and see what they tell you. It's your fault for failing to yield. If the car was traveling at a high rate of speed, you'll need witnesses and have to prove it, and it will be your fault until you do so.

Here is the Michigan traffic law:

MCL 257.612:
...
[[a) If the signal exhibits a green indication, vehicular traffic facing the signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at that place prohibits either turn. Vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians and bicyclists lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time the signal is exhibited.

Back to the accident, this is a case where two idiots crossed paths.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-09, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Back to the accident, this is a case where two idiots crossed paths.

Amen to that sentiment.

Stosh · August-13-09, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Don't need to look it up. I have a car. I make left turns everyday."

If you feel you have the right to pull out in front of people [[You don't) and cause an accident, it will be your fault. I've been in court and heard it straight from a judge. You never have the right of way unless you have a green arrow, and you still must use caution for people making right turns. Call any traffic court and tell them you were involved in an accident making a left turn and see what they tell you. It's your fault for failing to yield. If the car was traveling at a high rate of speed, you'll need witnesses and have to prove it, and it will be your fault until you do so.

Here is the Michigan traffic law:

MCL 257.612:
...
[[a) If the signal exhibits a green indication, vehicular traffic facing the signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at that place prohibits either turn. Vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians and bicyclists lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time the signal is exhibited.

Back to the accident, this is a case where two idiots crossed paths.

Reprising my earlier post that covered this:

From the Michigan Vehicle Code:

[[5) The driver of a vehicle traveling at an unlawful speed shall forfeit a right of way which the driver might otherwise have under this section.
In other words, for the driver of the truck, too bad, you lose anyway.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-257-649

And there's plenty of witnesses as to the rate of speed as well. Ask the cops.