After M-1 Rail

[ABetterDetroit]

Agreed, Hamtramck would be great. Like this? It could be an extension of the original M-1/QLINE or its own thing.

[Had to delete my first attempt at this reply...]

Attachment 29890

On this map it is really impressive what just adding another line equal to the 3.3 miles of the Qline can do. All have solid merit, its hard to choose just one.

[emu steve]

If the QLine is best for frequent stops, high density areas, etc. travel which encourages development, then I'd think Jefferson Ave is a 'no brainer.'

It would provide for those who 'work and play' in Downtown Detroit but live a mile or two or three away while encouraging even more development along Jerfferson.

This would seem much more natural than extending QLine to say 8 mile.

I'd think ridership would be much higher.

[Newdetroit]

What about adding a line on West and East Grand Boulevards and circle the area in, and then add two lines down Warren and Mack from E Grand to W Grand? And then have all the spokes hit E and W Grand. Basically Woodward up to W Grand, Gratiot up to E. Grand, E. Jefferson up to E. Grand, Grand River up to W. Grand, Michigan up to W. Grand, and then W. Jefferson up to W. Grand.

Sorry, I don't know how to draw it on a map... But I think it would be great idea. Any thoughts?

[Hermod]

What about adding a line on West and East Grand Boulevards and circle the area in, and then add two lines down Warren and Mack from E Grand to W Grand? And then have all the spokes hit E and W Grand. Basically Woodward up to W Grand, Gratiot up to E. Grand, E. Jefferson up to E. Grand, Grand River up to W. Grand, Michigan up to W. Grand, and then W. Jefferson up to W. Grand.

Sorry, I don't know how to draw it on a map... But I think it would be great idea. Any thoughts?

How about:

[MicrosoftFan]

How about:

Why do trains stop at Pontiac? Why don't Flint trains travel via Pontiac?

[casscorridor]

It's really hard to take "Q Line" seriously. It might as well be called the McTram. But in all honestly I think the cheesy corporate branding reflects the shortcomings of this project-- the lack of right-of-way within a road that is 9 lanes across, the operating hours that end at 10pm and the low frequency of only 4 trains per hour. It's basically stretching the people mover out in a line rather than a loop, but sacrificing all its strengths.

[emu steve]

It's really hard to take "Q Line" seriously. It might as well be called the McTram. But in all honestly I think the cheesy corporate branding reflects the shortcomings of this project-- the lack of right-of-way within a road that is 9 lanes across, the operating hours that end at 10pm and the low frequency of only 4 trains per hour. It's basically stretching the people mover out in a line rather than a loop, but sacrificing all its strengths.

Ending it at 10pm would be a total disaster.

It should run until say 11:00 pm to provide transportation for people at sporting events which start say 7 or so. [[or even later for a Lions night game).

Provisions to extend if games go extra innings or rain delays, etc.

[Hermod]

Ending it at 10pm would be a total disaster.

It should run until say 11:00 pm to provide transportation for people at sporting events which start say 7 or so. [[or even later for a Lions night game).

Provisions to extend if games go extra innings or rain delays, etc.

It should run for an hour after the bars close to get the Wayne State students back to their dorms from downtown without a DUI.

[K-slice]

It should run for an hour after the bars close to get the Wayne State students back to their dorms from downtown without a DUI.

Agreed. A major source of revenue for the current Q Line or any future extension would be people riding it into downtown, Corktown, or midtown and leaving their car at home. A lot fewer people will choose to ride if doing so imposes a 10pm curfew on their activities. Currently I shy away from bars I can't walk to but if I could ride a streetcar to Mercury or Honest Johns they would certainly be added to my short list.

[Junjie]

It's really hard to take "Q Line" seriously. It might as well be called the McTram. But in all honestly I think the cheesy corporate branding reflects the shortcomings of this project-- the lack of right-of-way within a road that is 9 lanes across, the operating hours that end at 10pm and the low frequency of only 4 trains per hour. It's basically stretching the people mover out in a line rather than a loop, but sacrificing all its strengths.

All good points. I don't think the right of way issue is likely ever to be fixed, but running 6 trains an hour [[every ten minutes) and going until at least midnight on at least Friday and Saturday are no brainers. Unfortunately trains are expensive and I assume they are only buying as many as they plan to run for now.

On the other hand I still expect it to perform significantly better than the PM. The sarcastic way to put it is that most people's intended direction of travel when taking a trip is a line between two places, not a circle back to where they started. And obviously it connects a lot more places than the PM, so it will have a lot more potential riders.

[Junjie]

What about adding a line on West and East Grand Boulevards and circle the area in, and then add two lines down Warren and Mack from E Grand to W Grand? And then have all the spokes hit E and W Grand. Basically Woodward up to W Grand, Gratiot up to E. Grand, E. Jefferson up to E. Grand, Grand River up to W. Grand, Michigan up to W. Grand, and then W. Jefferson up to W. Grand.

Sorry, I don't know how to draw it on a map... But I think it would be great idea. Any thoughts?

Here you go. It is definitely a lot of streetcar mileage... about 35 total miles, or the equivalent of 10 more M-1 projects! And you'd be sending them through some pretty depopulated areas on the Mack and Warren routes especially.

[royce]

No extentions of M1-Rail/Q-Line are going to take place, ever. Just like the People Mover, M1-Rail will function for years in the manner in which it was built. BRT will be the future for any mass transit it the Detroit area. How do I know? I'm a Detroiter/Michiganian. Logic does not govern choices around here. M1-Rail will be a debacle on so many levels that I can't even begin, but I will. First, the 10 p.m. shut-down is short-sighted for all the reasons that people have already given. Second, once it is discovered by locals that you can ride it for free ,a.k.a the honor system, M1-Rail won't make the revenue it promised. Third, riding it southbound will be fraught with so many delays, parked delivery trucks, cars turning right while waiting for pedestrians, bus stops, and the occasional conked-out car blocking that curbed-side lane, that most folks will avoid riding it southbound. When all of this comes to light, no one will be interested in extending it anywhere.

[Hermod]

All good points. I don't think the right of way issue is likely ever to be fixed, but running 6 trains an hour [[every ten minutes) and going until at least midnight on at least Friday and Saturday are no brainers. Unfortunately trains are expensive and I assume they are only buying as many as they plan to run for now.

On the other hand I still expect it to perform significantly better than the PM. The sarcastic way to put it is that most people's intended direction of travel when taking a trip is a line between two places, not a circle back to where they started. And obviously it connects a lot more places than the PM, so it will have a lot more potential riders.

Why I have referred to it as the "linear people mover".

[Hermod]

Why do trains stop at Pontiac? Why don't Flint trains travel via Pontiac?

The promoters of the route through Rochester were able to raise money to build.

Remember, the interurbans were built with private capital. People living in their mother's basements were not able to plan them on their computers.

[SDCC]

It's really hard to take "Q Line" seriously. It might as well be called the McTram. But in all honestly I think the cheesy corporate branding reflects the shortcomings of this project-- the lack of right-of-way within a road that is 9 lanes across, the operating hours that end at 10pm and the low frequency of only 4 trains per hour. It's basically stretching the people mover out in a line rather than a loop, but sacrificing all its strengths.

Ending service @ 10:00 is a tad early; coming from San Diego the trolleys end service around midnight. As far as frequency goes, 15 minutes [[M-F) is the standard between trolleys – one exception is the trolley that runs from the Mexican border to downtown. During morning and evening rush hours, this one line runs every 7 minutes.
This is however a much larger system, for a larger city that has an international border.

[ekleezy]

No extentions of M1-Rail/Q-Line are going to take place, ever. Just like the People Mover, M1-Rail will function for years in the manner in which it was built. BRT will be the future for any mass transit it the Detroit area. How do I know? I'm a Detroiter/Michiganian. Logic does not govern choices around here. M1-Rail will be a debacle on so many levels that I can't even begin, but I will. First, the 10 p.m. shut-down is short-sighted for all the reasons that people have already given. Second, once it is discovered by locals that you can ride it for free ,a.k.a the honor system, M1-Rail won't make the revenue it promised. Third, riding it southbound will be fraught with so many delays, parked delivery trucks, cars turning right while waiting for pedestrians, bus stops, and the occasional conked-out car blocking that curbed-side lane, that most folks will avoid riding it southbound. When all of this comes to light, no one will be interested in extending it anywhere.

First, I honestly believe that the 10pm shut-down is just something that's being tossed around right now. It's already been said that the time will be adjusted for special events [[concerts, sports, etc.). Once it's proven that there's sufficient demand for other nightlife to use it the time will be extended appropriately.

Second, locals can ride it for free? That's the first I've heard of that. If locals are given some kind of free pass I imagine they would still need a card to scan when they get on.

Third, you really think they designers of this rail haven't considered that? Delivery trucks will have to use some side street off of Woodward to park. There won't be any bus stops on Woodward because there is this rail line. I'm sure it will be made clear that there is no standing/parking in the right-side lane. If a car breaks down, it is clearly written on M1's website that they will be prepared to have tow trucks come out immediately.

[dtowncitylover]

Also, do we realize there are transit police? I have seen many on the People Move and I know they patrol DDOT. Honor systems do work. And in most of these systems, the fine can be very costly, which is a great deterrent. Risk a $100+ fine or $1.50 fare?

[Newdetroit]

Here you go. It is definitely a lot of streetcar mileage... about 35 total miles, or the equivalent of 10 more M-1 projects! And you'd be sending them through some pretty depopulated areas on the Mack and Warren routes especially.

Awesome! But you forgot Grand River..

[royce]

ekleezy

"Third, you really think they designers of this rail haven't considered that? Delivery trucks will have to use some side street off of Woodward to park."

That decision will be problematic. If I'm a delivery driver I'm not going to waste time looking for a place to park on a side street when I can deliver right in front of the store or business I need to get to. Am I, as the deliver driver, gonna carry a dolly of beer or some other large item around a corner when the business is in the middle of the block? Although it may be prohibitive to park in the streetcar lane on the southbound side of Woodward, many are going to violate that rule out of necessity and/or convenience. When the M1-Rail/QLine comes, it will have to just wait.

"There won't be any bus stops on Woodward because there is this rail line."

So where are the busses going to drop off people heading southbound after Grand Boulevard? When did DDOT abdicate its function to pick up DDOT riders along that route?

"I'm sure it will be made clear that there is no standing/parking in the right-side lane. If a car breaks down, it is clearly written on M1's website that they will be prepared to have tow trucks come out immediately."

How fast is "immediate?" Riders are not going to be happy having to wait additional minutes for a tow truck to come out. And they truly aren't going to be happy when this happens repeatedly while taking the rail on that side.

[professorscott]

Two thoughts on some of what has been said.

First, if you are going to park your car or delivery vehicle on railroad tracks based on the assumption that Roger Penske can't have it towed quickly, good luck with that.

Second, in regard to expansion [[both hours and route-miles) the M1 folks are very cognizant of demand and of opportunities. The hours of operation will expand if there seems to be a demand for it. If development pushes beyond the current M1 termini in either direction, the M1 folks will at least consider expansion. In my opinion the most likely direction for expansion is slightly to the north, or to the east.

None of this has anything to do with RTA or buses. Buses and M1 Rail, incidentally, can easily operate on the same streets and I don't know why anyone thinks this is even an issue. Spend a weekend in downtown Toronto.

[SDCC]

Two thoughts on some of what has been said.

First, if you are going to park your car or delivery vehicle on railroad tracks based on the assumption that Roger Penske can't have it towed quickly, good luck with that.

Second, in regard to expansion [[both hours and route-miles) the M1 folks are very cognizant of demand and of opportunities. The hours of operation will expand if there seems to be a demand for it. If development pushes beyond the current M1 termini in either direction, the M1 folks will at least consider expansion. In my opinion the most likely direction for expansion is slightly to the north, or to the east.

None of this has anything to do with RTA or buses. Buses and M1 Rail, incidentally, can easily operate on the same streets and I don't know why anyone thinks this is even an issue. Spend a weekend in downtown Toronto.

Professor,
I thought it was common knowledge that this message board is flush with Transit Operations Specialists, Right of Way Engineers, Regulatory Inspectors, System Architects, Lineman and Electro-mechanics.

[professorscott]

Professor,
I thought it was common knowledge that this message board is flush with Transit Operations Specialists, Right of Way Engineers, Regulatory Inspectors, System Architects, Lineman and Electro-mechanics.

#snort....

[ekleezy]

Royce

I'm sure the Detroit parking officers will be glad to heavily ticket any vehicles that are illegally parked/standing on the tracks. If you want to test how long you can park on the tracks without getting towed or ticketed, give it a try and let the rest of us know how long it takes.

If you want specifics about bus stops look at the M1 website or DDOT or something. In response to your specific question, maybe there will be a bus stop at Woodward and Grand Boulevard on grand boulevard so passengers can get on the at that intersection. Try asking someone directly involved with these decisions if you want an official answer.

[Junjie]

Awesome! But you forgot Grand River..

Dang, so I did. Sorry about that. Tack on another 3.5 miles and call it 11 more M-1 Rail sized projects...

[Newdetroit]

Dang, so I did. Sorry about that. Tack on another 3.5 miles and call it 11 more M-1 Rail sized projects...

Thanks so much. I actually think that this is a good design. The only thing I could see adding is perhaps a line along St. Aubin from Jefferson to Hamtramck Drive up to Joseph Campau, and then a line on the West side along 14th street.

Basically, a densely populated area "Within the Boulevard" could be the New Detroit.