New parking garage next to Comerica Park sought

[michmina]

Na, they should have gone with something like "JACK Tiger Garage 2 @ Comerica Park Detroit Michigan"

....awww I was looking to work a "Jack" reference in and you beat me!

[ABetterDetroit]

"Possible ground floor retail" and "could also be used for future downtown residents".

There are zero commitments to anything but stadium parking. The Ilitch PR people are just putting the spin on because it's not their land and they want complete control of it.

The next question that should be asked is since they own countless empty parking lots behind the Fox why are they not building this on their own property? Let me guess, the last thing they are willing to do is build a revenue generator that they would have to pay property taxes on.

[emu steve]

"Possible ground floor retail" and "could also be used for future downtown residents".

There are zero commitments to anything but stadium parking. The Ilitch PR people are just putting the spin on because it's not their land and they want complete control of it.

The next question that should be asked is since they own countless empty parking lots behind the Fox why are they not building this on their own property? Let me guess, the last thing they are willing to do is build a revenue generator that they would have to pay property taxes on.

Location, Location, Location...

Also, doesn't some of it have to do with ADA? Don't they need to provide ADA parking to replace those ADA parking spaces in front of Comerica which will be the site of the new housing units?

As far as parking locations, the preferred locations are behind St. John's Church, Henry/Clifford, and Montcalm/Clifford.

The other locations are not first options.

[jmarie]

As for retail in the parking garage, I know it would compete with Hockeytown, but how about something quick like a Subway shop? Folks could stop and eat for 20 minutes before the game..

There are already like 10 Subways in downtown. Including two close by- Grand Circus Park and one at Gratiot and Beaubien.

Ok, 10 may be a slight exaggeration, but I can name 6 off the top of my head- Congress between Washington and Shelby, First National Building, Cadillac Tower, Ren Cen, plus the two I already mentioned.

No more Subways. Please.

I welcome inexpensive options, even a sandwich shop [[I'd love to see a Jersey Mikes downtown), but no more Subways.... [[I have always disliked their sandwiches and cannot figure out how it appeals to so many people.)

[ABetterDetroit]

Location, Location, Location...

Also, doesn't some of it have to do with ADA? Don't they need to provide ADA parking to replace those ADA parking spaces in front of Comerica which will be the site of the new housing units?

As far as parking locations, the preferred locations are behind St. John's Church, Henry/Clifford, and Montcalm/Clifford.

The other locations are not first options.

Steve,
I like baseball and hockey as much as the next guy and even support a new arena but this was one hell of a sweetheart deal they pushed through when the city was on the ropes. No land swaps [[even tho they have gobs of it) no specific residences [[besides what they were forced into when they couldn't demo everything they wanted) and no time line for what they are supposed to do [[that's why not a lick of it is under construction now). Hell there not even building their own new HQ yet. Construction costs always go up as time passes so the city will get less and less for their dollar amount as time is being wasted. The family has milked reopening the Fox for decades now to get everything they wanted with two new stadiums. It is way passed due for them to build new residences or even commercial space that are not part of a arena. Renderings with "could" in them are useless. If there is something they have built on any of the property they have done demolition on or own, that isn't a stadium or parking, Please enlighten me. By my accounting they are high on promises with zero follow through.

[GPCharles]

This is part of the deal with the church to build apartments.

[313rd]

First Floor Retail Space is mandatory for Parking Structures built in the CBD. Now as far as leasing the space, that is not mandatory. Look at the Book Cadillac Garage...how long did that stay vacant?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Retail spaces do not remain vacant because of owner recalcitrance* but rather because of market conditions. When someone with the money and idea walks past a storefront and says, "I could open a shop there and make money", it will be leased. A new garage adjacent to Comerica Park is a benefit for all. The retail space will likely find a tenant quickly [[note: Detroit was not in the same growth situation when the Book Cadillac garage opened). I swear some people will oppose anything just to oppose things! Some people will die a natural death still hating the Ilitches. Meanwhile, the Ilitches will continue to build and buy and employ and pay taxes and donate money to local groups of all kinds. Those m*fers! In the last 20 years I do not recall anyone saying, "Oh, hey! I have a ton of money and want to build something cool in Detroit, but the Ilitches won't let me!" I do not agree with every business decision they have made, but they are great corporate citizens. And I neither work for them nor particularly like Little Caesar's pizza [[although it should be noted I can and will eat any pizza).

*Exception if an owner is seeking to tear down a building.

[313rd]

MikeyinB, I agree with you the market determines who will be able to takeover a space and make money off of it.

I was just stating that it has to be built with first floor retail. Then they can market the space how they want.

[gencinjay]

Also, doesn't some of it have to do with ADA? Don't they need to provide ADA parking to replace those ADA parking spaces in front of Comerica which will be the site of the new housing units?

No they don't. ADA requires a certain percentage of available parking spaces be made accessible. If there is not parking, there is no need to provide ADA space. The new development will have to be ADA accessible and the new deck will have to have a different number of ADA spaces, but there is nothing requiring them to replace spaces that were removed due to a change in land use.

[emu steve]

No they don't. ADA requires a certain percentage of available parking spaces be made accessible. If there is not parking, there is no need to provide ADA space. The new development will have to be ADA accessible and the new deck will have to have a different number of ADA spaces, but there is nothing requiring them to replace spaces that were removed due to a change in land use.

I'll play 'devil's advocate' and I do NOT know any of what I'm asking about...

Assuming what you say is correct, was there or is there any agreement part of the Comerica Park approval for N number of ADA parking spaces? Comerica was built after ADA became the law.

Or N number of parking spaces, period?

Couldn't the well meaning city say, "You must provide 250 ADA parking spaces". Ilitch asks: "Why?" And the city says because we are demanding it of you before approving..."

Is this analogous to a Dunkin Donuts as part of zoning be required to provide N number of parking spaces of which X must be handicapped parking?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

313rd sorry if my post seemed to go off on you. Not the intent. I just get so tired of so many "we must stop the hated Ilitches" posts. I realize yours was not in that mold. But so many people post here on the assumption that blocking an Ilitch plan is a net plus, regardless of the evidence at hand.

[ABetterDetroit]

Retail spaces do not remain vacant because of owner recalcitrance* but rather because of market conditions. When someone with the money and idea walks past a storefront and says, "I could open a shop there and make money", it will be leased. A new garage adjacent to Comerica Park is a benefit for all. The retail space will likely find a tenant quickly [[note: Detroit was not in the same growth situation when the Book Cadillac garage opened). I swear some people will oppose anything just to oppose things! Some people will die a natural death still hating the Ilitches. Meanwhile, the Ilitches will continue to build and buy and employ and pay taxes and donate money to local groups of all kinds. Those m*fers! In the last 20 years I do not recall anyone saying, "Oh, hey! I have a ton of money and want to build something cool in Detroit, but the Ilitches won't let me!" I do not agree with every business decision they have made, but they are great corporate citizens. And I neither work for them nor particularly like Little Caesar's pizza [[although it should be noted I can and will eat any pizza).

*Exception if an owner is seeking to tear down a building.

Mikey,
I am not a person that would "oppose anything", actually far from it. But I ask you the same question. What have they developed past tense in the last two decades as far as a residential project or commercially from their real estate holdings in the CBD? [[Excluding stadiums and parking)

https://makeloveland.com/us/mi/wayne...=neighborhoods

Am I missing something? I will be ecstatic if the Tigers win the World Series but it doesn't change the owner's past history in development in the city.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

ABD, you are correct in pointing out that the Ilitches didn't do much development [[except stadium-related) for 2 decades. BUT- and this a bigger BUT than mine- almost no one else did, either. Why? Because Detroit was an economic basket case. Instead, they slowly assembled land and buildings so that when developments made sense, they would be in a position to do it. That is business-smart long term planning. Since the "Gilbert Era" began a few years ago, building projects of all kinds now make economic sense. People are willing and able to spend significant money on apartments and offices. There are enough people living, working, and visiting downtown to support stores, bars, and restaurants. Had Ilitch built apartments in front of Comerica when it opened, they would have been vacant eyesores for a dozen years. Worse than vacant, they would have been a red flag that screams "build here and you'll lose your investment." Ditto the UA and any other properties they own. The Ilitches did not cause downtown's dormancy. Rather, they waited it out, ready to build when the city woke up. But, now, we're thriving and the Olympia folks are doing a number of big things.

[ABetterDetroit]

ABD, you are correct in pointing out that the Ilitches didn't do much development [[except stadium-related) for 2 decades. BUT- and this a bigger BUT than mine- almost no one else did, either. Why? Because Detroit was an economic basket case. Instead, they slowly assembled land and buildings so that when developments made sense, they would be in a position to do it. That is business-smart long term planning. Since the "Gilbert Era" began a few years ago, building projects of all kinds now make economic sense. People are willing and able to spend significant money on apartments and offices. There are enough people living, working, and visiting downtown to support stores, bars, and restaurants. Had Ilitch built apartments in front of Comerica when it opened, they would have been vacant eyesores for a dozen years. Worse than vacant, they would have been a red flag that screams "build here and you'll lose your investment." Ditto the UA and any other properties they own. The Ilitches did not cause downtown's dormancy. Rather, they waited it out, ready to build when the city woke up. But, now, we're thriving and the Olympia folks are doing a number of big things.

Then we will agree to disagree. I hope the next generation doesn't have tunnel vision. Years ago I thought they would step to the plate one day also, then another owner of a pro sports team stepped into downtown. As a business leader in Detroit, Mike isn't qualified to fetch Dan Gilbert's lunch in my opinion.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

ABD, you are correct in pointing out that the Ilitches didn't do much development [[except stadium-related) for 2 decades. BUT- and this a bigger BUT than mine- almost no one else did, either. Why? Because Detroit was an economic basket case. Instead, they slowly assembled land and buildings so that when developments made sense, they would be in a position to do it. That is business-smart long term planning. Since the "Gilbert Era" began a few years ago, building projects of all kinds now make economic sense. People are willing and able to spend significant money on apartments and offices. There are enough people living, working, and visiting downtown to support stores, bars, and restaurants. Had Ilitch built apartments in front of Comerica when it opened, they would have been vacant eyesores for a dozen years. Worse than vacant, they would have been a red flag that screams "build here and you'll lose your investment." Ditto the UA and any other properties they own. The Ilitches did not cause downtown's dormancy. Rather, they waited it out, ready to build when the city woke up. But, now, we're thriving and the Olympia folks are doing a number of big things.

Yes, they "waited it out", thereby doing nothing to combat downtown's dormancy. The dormancy started ending several years ago. And they still did nothing. And even now, they are doing nothing other than the stadium. That and lots of promises.

[emu steve]

Then we will agree to disagree. I hope the next generation doesn't have tunnel vision. Years ago I thought they would step to the plate one day also, then another owner of a pro sports team stepped into downtown. As a business leader in Detroit, Mike isn't qualified to fetch Dan Gilbert's lunch in my opinion.

I'm with MikeyinBrooklyn.

Gilbert would not have looked like a big hero decades ago. He is more the benefactor of today's [[meaning not 'today' but recent past) better climate for Detroit [[say post-Super Bowl)

In real estate it is location, location, location BUT it is also timing, timing, timing.

Doing big thing years ago would have made no financial sense. Ilitches played 'long ball' on Detroit's revitalization [[and still are playing that game in part of their development say West of Cass).

Ilitches are much more the pioneers. Gilbert more the opportunist.

Don't want to sound like demeaning what Gilbert has done but he is getting in at an opportune time. Ilitches did not.

[CrashDummy]

I'm with MikeyinBrooklyn.

Gilbert would not have looked like a big hero decades ago. He is more the benefactor of today's [[meaning not 'today' but recent past) better climate for Detroit [[say post-Super Bowl)

In real estate it is location, location, location BUT it is also timing, timing, timing.

Doing big thing years ago would have made no financial sense. Ilitches played 'long ball' on Detroit's revitalization [[and still are playing that game in part of their development say West of Cass).

Ilitches are much more the pioneers. Gilbert more the opportunist.

Don't want to sound like demeaning what Gilbert has done but he is getting in at an opportune time. Ilitches did not.

Also, in the early 2000's, the Ilitches were in no financial position to do anything close to what they are doing today. Mike was worth about $500 million and falling. The Tigers were terrible and not drawing anybody. The Comerica Park debt was a drain and they failed two times to refinance it. Little Caesar's was a mess and had dropped behind Papa John's in sales to #4 nationally. They took on a lot of debt in the questionable acquisition of Motor City Casino. The success of the Red Wings masked their financial situation, but they were barely making a profit. Hockey teams are not exactly known a cash cows, anyway. Still, people looked to them to buy anything that came up for sale [[e.g. Pistons) because they were virtually the only game in town.

Today, Mike Ilitch's net worth is $5.5 billion, $2 billion more than Dan Gilbert. I'm not sure the Tigers are profitable, but at least they are drawing about 3 million a year. Little Caesar's has climbed back into the #3 spot and has the highest per store sales of any of the big 4 pizza franchises. Building the new headquarters is a business decision and will get built. It has to. There are finally other players in the real estate market, thanks largely to Gilbert, but he is not the only one. This makes financing these projects much easier.

I don't think it exactly takes a tea leaf reader to figure out what the Ilitch's are doing now is going to be huge, but obviously a lot of people are not convinced. I guess just wait and see, but I can see a lot of people surveying new locations for the goal posts already.

[emu steve]

Mikey,
I am not a person that would "oppose anything", actually far from it. But I ask you the same question. What have they developed past tense in the last two decades as far as a residential project or commercially from their real estate holdings in the CBD? [[Excluding stadiums and parking)

https://makeloveland.com/us/mi/wayne...=neighborhoods

Am I missing something? I will be ecstatic if the Tigers win the World Series but it doesn't change the owner's past history in development in the city.

Okay, I'll bite and use a political analogy:

I believe it is correct to say NO one living has seen one of the two major political parties nominate a candidate for president who hasn't been a high elected official or military leader.

Trump would be the first exception to that rule in what the 21st and 20th centuries.

My point is that things are true until they are no longer true.

How do we know when things which had ALWAYS been true are no longer true?

We use our intellectual gifts and draw different conclusions then the 'same old, same old' static thinking [[e.g., spring follows winter, summer follows spring, etc.)

Same here: Ilitches' history with development is true until the past [[history) is no longer relevant or a beacon into the future.

This board seems split: Some thing the Ilitches are 'same old, same old'; others think there is a 'new day' in Detroit and that the root causes of things NOT getting done 10, 20, 30 years ago are NO longer true.

I'll repeat a point I've made many, many times: I have NOT seen any evidence to suggest that the arena won't be world class, that we won't have a new hdqtrs building across from Comerica, new parking structure [[this thread), apts across from the Comerica, etc. etc.

Today is Feb 27 and we are about 9 months into shovels in the ground and I have not seen 'less' but 'more' from the Ilitches.

EVERYTHING I read seems that the project is getting BIGGER not smaller.

Until I see say TWO buildings go off project, I'm keeping the faith.

[Hermod]

The big problem here is that DYes wants to spend the Illitches' money their way and not the Illitches way. DYes is very generous in spending other people's money.

[emu steve]

The big problem here is that DYes wants to spend the Illitches' money their way and not the Illitches way. DYes is very generous in spending other people's money.

Good thing this isn't FlintYes. Build a 5-star Trump-style hotel for development purposes to stimulate growth in downtown Flint.

Feasible? Well, not really... Oh, my.

[southen]

The big problem here is that DYes wants to spend the Illitches' money their way and not the Illitches way. DYes is very generous in spending other people's money.

You act as if it is unreasonable to expect a billionaire to follow through on promises and not let large swaths of downtown rot. How dare us.

[Bham1982]

You act as if it is unreasonable to expect a billionaire to follow through on promises and not let large swaths of downtown rot. How dare us.

The thing is, you know his promises are worthless and not legally binding. You laid down with him willingly, multiple times, and are now reaping the rewards.

Michigan taxpayers will be paying for his new hockey arena for decades, long after he's gone, and there will be a new generation of DYes members absolutely shocked that the arena didn't spur any development, even though every economist who has weighed in warned of this.

[emu steve]

The thing is, you know his promises are worthless and not legally binding. You laid down with him willingly, multiple times, and are now reaping the rewards.

Michigan taxpayers will be paying for his new hockey arena for decades, long after he's gone, and there will be a new generation of DYes members absolutely shocked that the arena didn't spur any development, even though every economist who has weighed in warned of this.

Really?

First of all, read CrashDummy's excellent post why what is happening TODAY did NOT happen 15 years ago.

Sometimes logic and understanding require a full, fair understanding of the facts as they were AT THE TIME.

Both Detroit and CBD [[and Ilitch) are in MUCH better financial shape, vibrant, etc. today and are ripe for big developments. [[Case in point is Gilbert's work and the Hudson's site. Why wasn't it redeveloped 15 years ago? Hint: maybe conditions were not right).

As CrashDummy indicated, the Ilitches, their operations, etc. are in much, much better shape and they have the financial wherefore-all to do TODAY what they are promising to do.

[emu steve]

The thing is, you know his promises are worthless and not legally binding. You laid down with him willingly, multiple times, and are now reaping the rewards.

Michigan taxpayers will be paying for his new hockey arena for decades, long after he's gone, and there will be a new generation of DYes members absolutely shocked that the arena didn't spur any development, even though every economist who has weighed in warned of this.

One thing about this post: We [[Ilitich) can PROVE you wrong next year/2018.

New headquarters, apartments, hotel, office, WSU School of Business building, etc. as well as Brush Park development stimulated by all of the development on the the other side of Woodward.

Once that happens your post will belong in the DetroitYES "Hall of Shame" for prognosticators whose crystal balls were very, very foggy.