And It Begins: I-75 To Be Widened In Oakland County

[EastsideAl]

Call it an overlay, call it maintenance, call it whatever. They fix the same streets every year or two. Every summer it's orange barrels and delays. I call it bullshit.

It's not bullshit to the DOT's favored contractors, it's just mo' money on the gravy freeway baby.

[Scottathew]

Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Hazel Park city leaders are voicing opposition and may take legal action: http://www.dailytribune.com/general-...i-75-expansion

[erikd]

Great news, long overdo, and should be great for the metro area's economy.

Of course, the armchair transit experts on DYes will lament that we didn't build a subway line to Clarkston, with 10x the cost and 1/20 the ridership.

Bham,

I'm surprised that you are so supportive of this freeway expansion, as I seem to recall you criticizing freeway expansion in the past. We have discussed induced demand at length on this forum, so I would think that you would know that this freeway expansion is unlikely to reduce traffic congestion on I75. I'm actually interested why you think that this is a good use of a billion dollars.

[Scottathew]

why you think that this is a good use of a billion dollars.

Keep in mind, that even if they don't add lanes, they still need to redo the freeway and bridges. Even if no lanes are added, they should still fix the Square Lake interchange configuration, do the 11-Mile exit ramp braiding, as well as make the 12 Mile interchange improvements. Also, the drainage is being fixed\redone. So even if you take the additional lane out of the project, it's still going to cost a very significant amount of money.

I like this project, but I would say that 4 lanes is the max. No more lanes for I-75 in Oakland county after this.

After this project the focus needs to be mass transit.

Limiting freeway expansion will help the region be more dense, and stop the abandoning of Detroit and the inner-ring. At some point, we have to actually fix the problems with crimes and failing schools, not just move out to the next exo-burb and commute to Southfield and Detroit.

I'm part of the problem, I moved from Warren to Rochester Hills and use 75 to get to my downtown Detroit job.

[erikd]

This wasn't always the case. Oakland County as the region's wealth center is a very recent phenomenon, concurrent with Patterson as County Exec.

Decades ago people would have fallen out of their chair laughing if you told them property in Novi and Rochester Hills [[nowhere near the wealthiest parts of OC) would be far more expensive than the Pointes and Palmer Woods. Those were farm pastures and hick towns. They would think you're insane if you claimed Royal Oak bungalows cost the same as Grosse Pointe colonials. Working class dudes belonging to the Elks Club lived in RO; the country club swells lived in the Pointes.

Granted, there's a correlation-causation issue, but it would be hard to claim that his management is irrelevent to the residential desirability of Oakland County. He may be boorish and kind of a jerk, and I don't share his politics, but the county is extremely healthy, and is the state's undisputed wealth and growth engine.

Growth engine? What growth? Metro Detroit [[MSA) had a population of 4,490,902 in 1970, 4,266,654 in 1990, and 4,296,250 in 2010. How is that growth? To be sure, Oakland County had a tremendous increase in population during this period, but it was mirrored by, and largely fueled with, the simultaneous decline of population in Detroit. That isn't growth, it's displacement.

[Bham1982]

Growth engine? What growth? Metro Detroit [[MSA) had a population of 4,490,902 in 1970, 4,266,654 in 1990, and 4,296,250 in 2010. How is that growth? To be sure, Oakland County had a tremendous increase in population during this period, but it was mirrored by, and largely fueled with, the simultaneous decline of population in Detroit. That isn't growth, it's displacement.

No, it's pure growth. The Oakland County executive isn't responsible for adjacent counties; he's only responsible for Oakland County. The fact that other counties haven't performed as well over time is hardly Oakland County's fault. Wayne County could elect slightly less idiotic/corrupt leadership and probably wouldn't be in the shape it's in.

Metro Detroit, BTW, is currently growing, not that it's particularly relevent. In fact it's growing faster than basically any major rust belt metro. I care about 2016, not 1970 or 1980. It probably has almost nothing to do with Brooks, though, as the region is completely tied to the auto industry's fortunes.

[Bham1982]

Bham,

I'm surprised that you are so supportive of this freeway expansion, as I seem to recall you criticizing freeway expansion in the past. We have discussed induced demand at length on this forum, so I would think that you would know that this freeway expansion is unlikely to reduce traffic congestion on I75. I'm actually interested why you think that this is a good use of a billion dollars.

The freeway is congested and increasing capacity will allow more drivers to use the freeway, thus enabling regional mobility. No economist disputes that increased regional mobility aids economic growth.

Freeways are also much safer than surface streets, and if you get people commuting on freeways, you're reducing car accidents and saving some lives, while giving people a wider potential circumference of job opportunities.

If the freeway, at some point, becomes completely congested again, that's a sign of success. It means that people are actually utilizing the investment to maximum capacity. Thriving areas should have congested freeways at rush hour.

And it isn't feeding sprawl as the entire corridor is already suburbanized. There's sprawl along I-75 all the way through Oakland at this point, and the northernmost townships aren't particularly pro-growth anyways. You aren't going to get massive development north of Great Lakes Crossing. Most of the recent growth in Oakland is to the west [[which is why I-96, at some point will be need to be expanded; I-96 between Southfield and Brighton is much worse than I-75).

[dtowncitylover]

The freeway is congested and increasing capacity will allow more drivers to use the freeway, thus enabling regional mobility. No economist disputes that increased regional mobility aids economic growth.

How does adding lanes on a freeway increase regional mobility? The freeway is already there. If you want to use it, no one is stopping you.

Freeways are also much safer than surface streets, and if you get people commuting on freeways, you're reducing car accidents and saving some lives, while giving people a wider potential circumference of job opportunities.

What about people that don't drive to work? How do additional lanes on a freeway allow them greater access to work? Especially since we know that there is a sizeable chunk of Detroiters who commute into the suburbs by taking the bus. How does a widened 75 help them?

If the freeway, at some point, becomes completely congested again, that's a sign of success. It means that people are actually utilizing the investment to maximum capacity. Thriving areas should have congested freeways at rush hour.

And it isn't feeding sprawl as the entire corridor is already suburbanized. There's sprawl along I-75 all the way through Oakland at this point, and the northernmost townships aren't particularly pro-growth anyways. You aren't going to get massive development north of Great Lakes Crossing. Most of the recent growth in Oakland is to the west [[which is why I-96, at some point will be need to be expanded; I-96 between Southfield and Brighton is much worse than I-75).

So if 75 [[or 96 for that matter) is widened and all the lanes fill up again from 8 Mile to 59, how many more lanes should we build?

How much more economic development will occur because new lanes are added to 75?

[Junjie]

No, it's pure growth. The Oakland County executive isn't responsible for adjacent counties; he's only responsible for Oakland County. The fact that other counties haven't performed as well over time is hardly Oakland County's fault. Wayne County could elect slightly less idiotic/corrupt leadership and probably wouldn't be in the shape it's in.

Metro Detroit, BTW, is currently growing, not that it's particularly relevent. In fact it's growing faster than basically any major rust belt metro. I care about 2016, not 1970 or 1980. It probably has almost nothing to do with Brooks, though, as the region is completely tied to the auto industry's fortunes.

I agree with most of what you posted above [[though skeptical of claimed economic benefits to a slightly wider freeway) but don't see how on one hand you can talk about 2016's Metro Detroit and on the other hand claim that Oakland's growth represents anything meaningful. The growth was just a transfer of wealth within the region from Detroit to Oakland County. There wasn't [[much) new growth in Oakland that would have happened without it moving out of Detroit. For the Metro Detroit area you're interested in, it's a wash.

[Junjie]

By the way, here's one example of what Oakland County is competing with in terms of suburban/exurban infrastructure:

http://www.slideshare.net/fairfaxcou...ublic-meetings

And yes, they're also in the process of widening Fairfax County's "main street" [[ha), I-66.

[mikeg19]

Personally, I have mixed feelings on the project.

On one hand, I drive that stretch a few times a month to visit my parents and that stretch of freeway is in rough shape. Would it be nice to have it rebuilt? Absolutely, it's sorely needed. Add a lane? No. Save for about two-three hours a day during morning/afternoon rush hour, I don't see the need for an extra lane. Improving freeway access points, on ramp/off ramp configurations [[M-59/I-75 interchange is horrific) I think would be money better spent than just adding a HOV lane.

[erikd]

No, it's pure growth. The Oakland County executive isn't responsible for adjacent counties; he's only responsible for Oakland County. The fact that other counties haven't performed as well over time is hardly Oakland County's fault. Wayne County could elect slightly less idiotic/corrupt leadership and probably wouldn't be in the shape it's in.

Metro Detroit, BTW, is currently growing, not that it's particularly relevent. In fact it's growing faster than basically any major rust belt metro. I care about 2016, not 1970 or 1980. It probably has almost nothing to do with Brooks, though, as the region is completely tied to the auto industry's fortunes.

The growth of Oakland County has not resulted in any growth of the metro region or the state, therefore, it is quite specious to call Oakland County a "growth engine" for the region and/or state. The only regional/state growth that Oakland County has created is the growth of roads, streetlights, water/sewer pipes, bridges, and other additional public infrastructure that a stagnant regional/state population can not afford to maintain, which results in an overall increasing tax burden and declining level of service for the region and state as a whole.

I do not disagree with your point that LBP isn't responsible for the performance of adjacent counties, nor is he responsible for the overall performance of the region or state, for that matter. Did LBP and Oakland County do a good job of capitalizing on the national trend of people and businesses leaving the cities for the suburbs? Certainly. Hell, I could even respect the argument that LBP is just playing the hand that he was dealt, and that he couldn't make a difference in regional/state growth even if that was his main goal. I think we probably agree on that point.

Having said all of that, my point was that Oakland County is not a growth engine for the region or the state. Growth in Oakland County is, at best, a wash for the region and state, and in actuality a loss for the region and state, as it is primarily fueled by regional displacement and increasingly unsustainable additions to the regional infrastructure systems. This may not be LBP's concern, but it should be a concern for all Metro Detroiters and Michigan citizens.