Sick out War! Detroit Public Schools vs Detroit Federation of Teachers.

[Scottathew]

belleislerunner,

I'm not a big fan of unions, especially teacher unions, but you can't literally blame all issues, including parent involvement and administration issues on the teacher.

Yes, these teachers can switch professions or try to switch to a different school. However, the better solution would be to create an environment where they want to work. Fix the administration issues, fix the building issues, get funding for supplies, etc...

The district is imploding, the ship is sinking, and these teachers are the ones that couldn't get a life boat to get away, or the ones that cared enough to stay.

The Rochester Schools elementary school where my daughter attends has an issue with a large transient population with parents that don't speak English natively, or sometimes at all. The difference? School administration backs them up with the resources they need, the ELL\ESL staff that they need, the materials and structure that they need.

The teachers in my child's school district have warm, well lit classrooms, with functioning and stocked bathrooms, and administrators that care.

The result? The lowest performing Rochester elementary, but it still performs much higher than most DPS schools [[although there are some very high performing DPS elementary schools, Chrysler off the top of my head).

Detroit teachers and Detroit kids deserve better. belleislerunner, the answer can't be to "walk", because when the teacher walks, the kids still remain. DPS will become a district of the kids that had no choice being taught by the teachers that had no choice.

[jt1]

Let's all have people with no education background tell us how to fix the schools so we can ignore the socio-economic issues that are the root cause of poor performance and school issues.

Let's also ignore the fact that DPS has been under state control for the better part of 20 years. Let's also ignore the fact that the last major bond approved by voters went to schools that the EAA took over.

But sure, it is the teachers fault and they should just go back into the classroom with 40-50 kids and shut up and be happy that they are making about 60% of their suburban counterparts.

Do some of you people still believe women deserve to be raped if they dress trashy?

[Danny]

This is what I do if I am an emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools.

RESPONDING THE DFT'S REQUESTS:

1. There will be class sizes to 20 students all elementary, middle, high school buildings.

2. All DFT teachers demand a more pay raises and better medical pensions. Well, I will tell them it's up to count day, benefactors and whatever the City, State and Federal Gov't gives the district. And it prove it I will sent them the matter by document the reason WHY the DFT teachers haven't got their pay raises. So don't complain to me about it. Go to your state reps. and demand for money. Make sure you contact your administrator if your going to be absent and a substitute will take over. Failure to follow such policy will result of delay of your paycheck until such presentable evidence is made restating your verbal excuses. All teachers should have a right to defend themselves if a student attacks them. Make sure you quickly contact the hall monitors to stop the situation down.

3. Whatever monies those Romans in Lansing give us, it will go straight to school supplies, and maintenance. Special trips and events will have to be supported by donations and benefactors.

RESPONDING DPS STUDENTS TO ACADEMIC CONTROL:

1. Every student must be school and into their assigned classrooms before hall sweep monitors come. If any student is not their classrooms after the hall sweeps, they will get a detention for a hour until they will be escorted to their assigned classrooms. I will make this a three strike rule to all students. The third strike will be a Saturday detention from 9:00 am. to 3:00 pm. making up their schoolwork. If detention student is late [[example) 9:37 am, they will remain in detention until 3:37 pm. If any student does not abide by these rules will be expelled infinitely from their school. Their relatives will have to find another school district for their delinquent student.

2. Delinquency and other such crimes at the Detroit Public School campuses will not tolerated. Suspensions, getting expelled or criminal prosecution is imminent to any student perform these acts. Detroit Public Schools a carries zero tolerance policy.

RESPONDING TO MAINTENANCE CONTROL:

1. All janitors must clean the entire school building spotless! interior and exterior from hallways to classrooms, from bathrooms and lunchrooms, from auditoriums to lunchrooms. Saturday detention students and even community groups can help. All janitors must apply to these rules or face payment cuts or delays until their task is complete.

2. Lunchroom cooks will prepare food to all students and staff. Food must to cook thoroughly and carefully inspected before it could be brought to the cafeteria. If suspected food poisoning happen to any student and staff. They who is responsible will be suspended without pay, termination, or possible criminal prosecution.

RESPONDING TO DEBT CONTROL

1. Fifty percent of the money from city, state and federal governments will used to cover payment arraignments. Expect major cuts. Teachers, administrators, and even students will have to bring their own supplies. Special trips will have to be covered my donations.

2. Keep schools in occupied Detroit neighborhoods open and close others in blighted areas. Create Elementary/Middle school campuses.

Hopefully my proposal to save Detroit Public Schools will be reliable and undeniable.

[Scottathew]

I'm honestly at a loss in understanding how somebody could attempt to look at this issue and come away with "greed should never trump duty".

It's Idiocracy. And it's anti-American.

I don't want my kids to be in a school district where instead of fixing problems, teachers are just told to eat shit and quit if they don't like things.

[southen]

In each of these scenarios - I don't see how anyone is to blame but the teacher.

Im at a loss as to how to respond to your drivel. I just want to thank you for knowing in absolute terms how good of a teacher my GF is and the circumstances of her employment. I too cannot believe she didn't accept one of the readily available high paying teaching jobs in fantastic districts... I mean they are out there, all you have to do is quit what you are currently doing, abandon the kids you care about, and take it. Your heartlessness and cluelessness is astounding.

[belleislerunner]

48037 -

Detroit teachers and Detroit kids deserve better. the answer can't be to "walk", because when the teacher walks, the kids still remain. DPS will become a district of the kids that had no choice being taught by the teachers that had no choice.

48037 what you fail to realize is you did exactly that. You "walked" or gave up on the DPS. Not "you" but we as a collective we.

We moved our children to the suburbs where we didn't have to deal with "those issues." So rather than the parents who had two people helping at the PTA and babysitting those who were single parents- we created two classes. One where all the wealthy and functioning parents/students teach. One where all the residents left because they couldn't be bothered to fix the issue.

Now we act surprised because the "broken" school is somehow Lansing's fault. It's the structural fault of everyone - the residents who left to pursue greener pastures, actually become part of the cause if they weren't replaced with equally qualified residents.

So the anger shouldn't be directed at Lansing - it should be directed at Macomb and Oakland residents. Rochester and Shelby Twp should pay for abdicating their social responsibilities and leaving the widows and orphans behind. Good luck selling that solution.

No one is saying there aren't massive issues- my only point was calling in sick wasn't the most effective way to highlight your grievances. IT was the most immature and ignorant way.

[Scottathew]

No one is saying there aren't massive issues- my only point was calling in sick wasn't the most effective way to highlight your grievances. IT was the most immature and ignorant way.

And the teachers would respond by saying that they've been telling us about the issues, but no body cares until it effects them [[ie school closure). They've been weathering the storm for quite a while, and they've hit their breaking point.

Your solution is, instead of fixing problems with the schools, is to have the teachers quit and find districts without issues. That doesn't make sense to me. From an individual perspective, if you're not happy, changing jobs, lovers, where you live, etc... makes sense. But when you have a systemic issue like a failing school district, moving large amounts of teachers through the system as wave after wave takes a job, works for a couple years, and then quits, that doesn't make sense, and that's the only solution you seem to be looking at.

[GPCharles]

No one is saying there aren't massive issues- my only point was calling in sick wasn't the most effective way to highlight your grievances. IT was the most immature and ignorant way.

So what is the effective way? Tell us, oh wise fount of all knowledge.

At my W's school they have tried repeatedly to work with the administration to no avail. Note - they don't have a teacher on staff to teach each subject. They have a very limited sub pool. My W has taken 1 day off this year, 1 day off last year and 2 days off the year before. Yeah, she's a real malingerer.

[Wesley Mouch]

It sounds like the teachers and the students are just pawns in a broken system.

The game is irrelevant -- unless we also to grant a monopoly on education to this broken system. Fortunately, alternatives are available for some. Odd that the C-word hasn't made an appearance on this thread.

I side with DPS here. DPS needs the power to decide how the schools are run, and what sizes of classes are appropriate. If they're wrong. They can live with the mistake. If teachers don't like DPS's choices -- they should go elsewhere. If voters don't like the administration -- change it. But don't let the teachers run the school. They should be teaching.

As to the famous 'class size' issue -- of course we want smaller classes. But the last thing I want is rules that limit the administrations ability to deploy their resources well.

[michmina]

At this point, I believe if the teachers, parents and students saw some effort put into addressing the BUILDING problems alone, they would be more than willing to dredge up some more patience as long as progress continued.

Leaking buildings, mold, buckets all over the hallways catching water, broken toilets, vermin [[all health hazards) - that's just the beginning.

We're still in a situation here where people are asking for folks to headquarter their companies or move their businesses into the city, but I guess we expect them to live outside the city - you can't honestly expect people to have their children educated in Detroit under the current conditions.

[313WX]

Sometimes, you have to just ignore the trolls.

I definitely sympathize with the teachers. No one should have to work in the conditions they face.

[belleislerunner]

Glad to help.

A much more effective way would have been for the teachers to stay in school teaching. They could have found the most deplorable conditions in each school and then taken pictures of their students in these confines. Then posted them to social media and other avenues where they could have quickly spread. That would have raised awareness, attached itself to social causes and became the subject of the 5PM and 11PM. Maybe even have the teachers or students holding a specific sign [[e.g. duct tape over mouth or over eyes) as a symbol.

That would have caused people to empathize with the teachers so once the black mold and other issues were addressed, people/groups/agencies would help address class size, pay etc. Refusing to do your job and screaming may get the black mold fixed - but rest assured it will get you nothing else. You always attract more flies with honey.

[southen]

Instead of not teaching kids by taking the day off you would rather they not teach by making students pose with signs or with duct tape over their mouths and eyes for photos? That is the best idea you have?

Odds are that on their day off they were grading papers or preparing lesson plans. Lazy, greedy, bums.

[Wesley Mouch]

Sometimes, you have to just ignore the trolls.

I definitely sympathize with the teachers. No one should have to work in the conditions they face.

OK, I agree. Everyone agrees. So what?

The fact is that the conditions exist.

Now you have to decide how to change those conditions. You can double down on the previous solution. Or you can look to new solutions. You can look at new solutions and tear them apart -- or you can look at just how bad things are today and realize that experimentation and failure might be the only way out.

Oh, if we only paid more. Oh, if we only made everyone be decent. Oh, if we just didn't have principals who steal money from schools. Oh......

But the truth is that sometimes systems decay. And rebuilding isn't so simple.

CAY's approach of allowing the white infrstructure to decay because it was racist was a bad policy.

[bust]

OK, I agree. Everyone agrees. So what?

The fact is that the conditions exist.

Now you have to decide how to change those conditions. You can double down on the previous solution. Or you can look to new solutions. You can look at new solutions and tear them apart -- or you can look at just how bad things are today and realize that experimentation and failure might be the only way out.

Oh, if we only paid more. Oh, if we only made everyone be decent. Oh, if we just didn't have principals who steal money from schools. Oh......

But the truth is that sometimes systems decay. And rebuilding isn't so simple.

CAY's approach of allowing the white infrstructure to decay because it was racist was a bad policy.

Can we agree it's a mistake to deliver public money to schools that waste it educating girls to be subservient second class citizens?

That's a small part of the problem, but it's too much leeway with public money, and serves as an instrumental example. It's real in Detroit. And Hamtramck. And there are other examples.

I'm not against new ideas. But I'm big against some of them, with reason. And I'm wholesale against "tradition" as an organizing concept. It is no purpose in itself.

Traditions conflict. And while new is not necessarily better, traditions are archaic by nature. There are countless examples where tradition was abandoned for a new idea. Often it's progress. Often not.

Religion: I'm a skeptic. Tax dollars should not pay for that. It should come from home.

Educators, both public and private, unionized and unprotected, are part of my family.

From my perspective, there is not a singular villain, not a simple answer, not a clear route to follow.

Schools depend on the city. The city needs a strong tax base to be able to deliver. How do we arrive there? Doing so is prerequisite to solving the problem.

[belleislerunner]

We cannot agree to that because private charter schools are a great alternative to public schools.

[Pam]

Mayor Duggan tours schools:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ools/78647624/

[bust]

We cannot agree to that because private charter schools are a great alternative to public schools.

And here is where we fundamentally disagree. After you you look at each private charter school individually, get back to us.

[southen]

We cannot agree to that because private charter schools are a great alternative to public schools.

Funny you mention that. GF has worked at charters as well and has the exact same issues, the only difference is that the money is being hoarded to turn a profit. Nice try though.

[Johnnny5]

We cannot agree to that because private charter schools are a great alternative to public schools.

Maybe some of them are, but their popularity in Detroit was/is one of the driving forces behind the breakdown of DPS. IMO without the charters public education in the city would be in much better condition overall than it is today. The charters and School of Choice stripped DPS of many of it's best students and their per pupil funding. This left DPS to not only deal with the most challenging students, but reduced funding from a smaller student body and at the same time debt and other legacy costs from the past.

[Zacha341]

Filthy, nasty conditions abound in many DPS schools. This photo has put me off from eating 'mushrooms' for a long while:

Detroit teacher says sick-outs are in response to 'deplorable' conditions at DPS schools

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...at-dps-schools

[michmina]

We cannot agree to that because private charter schools are a great alternative to public schools.

I hate the charter school concept. Totally, and not just in Detroit. Period.

[Zacha341]

^^^ They're not always very consistent. You can have a very good charter here and a terrible store-front one down the street!

Their educational standards and taxonomy vary greatly, particularly when you have the smaller ones with K thru 12 in the same building.

[Honky Tonk]

Filthy, nasty conditions abound in many DPS schools. This photo has put me off from eating 'mushrooms' for a long while:

Detroit teacher says sick-outs are in response to 'deplorable' conditions at DPS schools

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...at-dps-schools

Especially if the restaurant advertises "Locally Grown".

[BankruptcyGuy]

Let me add a little bit to both sides of the equation here:

1. First, the amount of money Detroit gets is fixed by the State. Having a local protest does absolutely nothing. A protest in Lansing would make more sense, but...
2. Detroit is by far the state's largest "recipient" district. That means that when you add the 9-18 mills from everyone's tax bill that is collected by the state, the amount Detroit collects is well, well below what it receives from the State.
3. Detroit's per pupil spending is almost the highest in the state, considering all the Title I money they receive.

On the other hand:

1. DPS has always been very top-heavy in administration. It's not enough to hire 100's of teachers, but there are too many of them.
2. There is no excuse for unkempt school classrooms and buildings.
3. Because of enrollment declines, the classroom sizes are unmanageable. Children who come to school with significant disadvantages are going to fall further behind, not catch up.
4. The best teachers in the world can't solve #3 with 39 kids in a class.

Notwithstanding that, I don't think that a sickout earns you any friends. It doesn't "shed light" on the problem--the impacted parents already know the situation. The outstate legislators who are going to be asked to pony up large sums of money to pay off DPS debt now see that as throwing good money after bad. I don't see that happening.

The parasite may have finally killed the host. I would be really surprised if DPS continued to exist in 2017.