Moore, Nugent & Wilson Sound off about Detroit

[4Oranges]

CheddarBob....shouldn't you be on a honeymoon right now? I hope you aren't spending TOO much time in here, and ignoring the new Mrs. Bob......

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Leftist lies and distortions."

The plain truth. Sorry it doesn't fit your world view, but the truth is what it is.

The rest of your post is nothing more than neocon tripe. Apparently you missed a few memos, they lied to us on numerous points, they even admitted they lied about it. In the words of Dick Cheney when asked about it, his reply was "So". If this is your idea of a free republic and democracy complete with your remedies for disobedience via public executions and stripping people of their citizenship, stay tuned. Iraq will be shopping for a leader like that very soon. You can carry the torch for Saddam.

Quote: "Just know in doing so it could end up sparking car bombs and more attacks here"

Hey, you aren't completely delusional.. What if we got our ass out of there? Think that would help the hatred toward us? Let me guess, they hate our western ways? We aren't the worlds police force. As much as you and yours like to rub one out to the thought of spreading "democracy" at the point of a gun, it doesn't work. "The Iraqi's want this, and the Iraqi's want that" The Iraqi's want us the hell out of there, and nothing else. Every one of them ever interviewed, has said the same thing. They hated us and they still hate us.

You are aware that 90% of the American public does not agree with you? You're in a very small minority that still believes all the BS propogated by the Bush administration.

[BShea]

The plain truth. Sorry it doesn't fit your world view, but the truth is what it is.

So you're going to ignore the facts? Eight years of what Clinton and Co. had to say? The F-ing regime change law he had passed? You're too far gone, blinded by partisan hatreds. The truth doesn't fit with your intellectual sloth and spite. I'd wager you're a Truther, too.

Did Iraq violate the 1991 ceasefire over and over again? Yes or no?

As much as you and yours like to rub one out to the thought of spreading "democracy" at the point of a gun, it doesn't work.

Just like it didn't work in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, France, etc., eh? And at last check, our democracy here was purchased and preserved at the end of a gun from 1775-83. No thanks to the likes of you, of course.

The Iraqi's want us the hell out of there, and nothing else. Every one of them ever interviewed, has said the same thing. They hated us and they still hate us.

Rarely do I come across someone to spectacular wrong, hyperbolic and distortionist in everything they write.

For all practical purposes, the Iraq was is won. Major combat is over and troops are moving to Afghanistan. The insurgency is defeated and our troops primarily provide security and train the Iraqis. The nation is never going to be a calm, peaceful nation like ours, but none in the Mideast are. What it won't be is a destabilizing force in the region, one that ferments terror and wages war on its neighbors and thumbs its nose at the world.

You are aware that 90% of the American public does not agree with you? You're in a very small minority that still believes all the BS propogated by the Bush administration.

I believe what I see. You might take your marching orders from Obama [[unless he needs to draft you, then you'll skedaddle to a hidey-hole and claim to be a Quaker or something), but I base my opinions on empirical evidence ... and that includes the reports and statements of the Clinton administration and other governments prior to Bush even being elected. And the post-war reports are pretty revealing, too. Of course, you've never read 'em. Wouldn't fit with the trademarkDaily Kos narrative you've swallowed. And feel free to live your life by opinon polls, too. Why doesn't that surprise me?

Silly old Leftist with tired old canards and complaints, with nothing more to offer than limp "If we just leave, they'll leave everyone alone! We're a bad people! We need the world to love us!" and whatever else you crib from The Nation.

[rb336]

funny wingnuts, still trying to blame it all on reagan lite [[clinton) after having total control of the government for nearly eight years, and being the most obstructionist congress in history when they lost control in '06.

"but I base my opinions on empirical evidence"

oh, really? link to some. No, I don't like Clinton much, yes, he had some of the same intelligence about Iraq, but that was heavily contradicted by new evidence before the chimp invaded. [[see the actual reports that came from US inspector Charles Duelfer, head of the Iraq Survey Group, http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/index.html) The Bushies chose to mislead Americans by discounting all evidence except that conveniently provided by a guy they had tortured

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "So you're going to ignore the facts?"

You mean accept the bullshit from the Bush administration? No.

Quote:"Did Iraq violate the 1991 ceasefire over and over again? Yes or no?"

Do you really want to discuss violation of UN sanctions including violations of cease fire agreements by other countries as well? Is this a legitimate basis for military intervention? If so, we got a few more that need an ass-whippin'. Or would you just execute them all? Your hatred and vitriol is apparent.

Quote: "Just like it didn't work in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, France, etc., eh?"

Difference being, they wanted to be liberated. We were not invited to Iraq. Remember "we will be greeted as liberators"? Never happened, another lie.

Quote: "Rarely do I come across someone [[s)o spectacular[[ly) wrong, hyperbolic and distortionist in everything they write"

Translation: So this is what it's like, to NOT listen to Limbaugh, Hannity and O'reilly.

Quote: "For all practical purposes, the Iraq wa[[r) is won."

"Won"= We give up. We have lost the faith of the American people and the the support we anticipated from the rest of the world, never came because they could see through our BS.

Quote: "What it won't be is a destabilizing force "

What it will be according to anyone who knows anything about that region, is all out civil war when we leave, and it will fall into control of one of the three or four tribal factions.

[Lloyd]

Dang BShea, you should just call it a day. Your indefensible positions have been dogged time and again while all you have to offer is the last refuge of the desperate, the personal attack.

[BShea]

You mean accept the bullshit from the Bush administration? No.

Or the Clintons, and every other Western nation that said Saddam was up to no good. But hey! If we're not going to topple every destabilizing murderous dictator, then we can topple any! Nice logic.

Do you really want to discuss violation of UN sanctions including violations of cease fire agreements by other countries as well? Is this a legitimate basis for military intervention? If so, we got a few more that need an ass-whippin'. Or would you just execute them all? Your hatred and vitriol is apparent.

No, not sanctions. Violations of the agreement that halted -- but did not end -- the 1990-91 war. That's call a "cease fire" for the many slow learners that appear to be on here. How many other nations have targeted and fired upon American aircraft and engaged in actions that repeatedly required the U.S. to move brigades and divisions of troops to the region? NONE. How many U.N. ceasefire agreements are in place of the scope of the 1991 cease fire. NONE. [[Except North Korea, which does need a beat down). And nice trying to dodge the question by the most childish of strawmen: "Well, other countries violate stuff, and we don't punish them, so we should have left Saddam alone!" Jesus, you're hopeless.

Difference being, they wanted to be liberated. We were not invited to Iraq. Remember "we will be greeted as liberators"? Never happened, another lie.

Nazi Germany, facsist Italy and Imperial Japan wanted to be liberated? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you genuinely that ignorant? I could have sworn millions of Allied troops were killed and wounded fighting them. Seriously, I'm done with you. You're simply a distortionist liar that makes Baghad Bob look honest.

And again, you try to deflect the point with some stupid Cheney statement. Son, that doesn't mean my point wasn't valid. It was. You need to go back to debate class.

Translation: So this is what it's like, to NOT listen to Limbaugh, Hannity and O'reilly.

Except that I don't. The last time I listed to Limbaugh was a MNF broadcast years ago. I don't want television news, nor listen to talk radio. Nor am I a Bush-Cheney fan by any means, nor was I ever. But I'd bet you're a Daily Kos reader, aren't you?

"Won"= We give up. We have lost the faith of the American people and the the support we anticipated from the rest of the world, never came because they could see through our BS.

How is a broken insurgency us giving up? Are there any cities occupied by insurgent forces? No. Did the Awakening movement and Surge turn the tide? Yes. Your boy Obama isn't going to let Iraq go South Vietnam on his watch because he knows that would be electoral poison for the Dems. Hence, he wouldn't shift 30K troops to Afghanistan is it was going to lead to a military problem.

Face it: We won.

What it will be according to anyone who knows anything about that region, is all out civil war when we leave, and it will fall into control of one of the three or four tribal factions.

American combat troops now aren't deployed in large numbers outside their immediate staging areas. We're completely out of almost all provinces. So are the Brits. And yet those provinces haven't fallen into civil war. Odd that, isn't it?

I'd wager that you were among those in 2003 who breathless predicted Baghdad would be the U.S. Stalingrad. </eyeroll>

Why do you think so poorly of Iraqis and their ability to government themselves? Is it some sort of closeted belief that only Westerners can do so without resorting to dictatorship?

I guess "anyone" in your book is Markos Moulitsas and Michael Moore. Obama and his administration, both civilian and military, disagree. Take it up with them, bud.

Up your game.

[oldredfordette]

This looks like a good place to announce this month's Women In Black is in Hamtramack. Wear black if possible, men and children welcome, prepare for a silent vigil. Noon.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "and every other Western nation that said Saddam was up to no good."

Sure he was up to no good, and with our help. Like when we supplied him with mustard and sarin gas to use against the Iranians, he instead used it on the Kurds. Slaughtering 300 thousand of them. Oops! you forgot that one didn't ya? That's what Colin Powell meant by "WMD's UNACCOUNTED for". We gave it to ya, where the hell is it? Saddam was our boy, remember that? Hell, we even supplied the AG crop duster planes to dispense the stuff on civilians.

Quote: "Violations of the agreement that halted -- but did not end -- the 1990-91 war."

Total nonsense. This is the first time ever have I read "OPERATION Desert storm" referred to as a "war". And it was indeed over. You and your ilk have been trying to link the two incursions in to one. Nice try, but it don't hunt. A 10 year break in fighting? Please, you can't be serious. The reason your ilk has effectively brainwashed you into believing this is they have no reason for the 2001 invasion, linking it to Iraq invading Kuwait gives it purpose. Very Weak..

Quote: "Nazi Germany, facsist Italy and Imperial Japan wanted to be liberated? Are you fucking kidding me?"

My sentiments exactly. The majority of the people that were liberated wanted to be.

Quote: " And again, you try to deflect the point with some stupid Cheney statement. Son, that doesn't mean my point wasn't valid. It was."

It wasn't. The point made was that our government lied to us repeatedly and their flippiance regarding it was apparent. They even admitted it. It's a proven fact they ignored intelligence that did not support their agenda of invading Iraq, a sovereign nation. The truth. Do you use Google? Maybe it's your search engine.

Quote: "Face it: We won."

I think that was said in 91 regarding Iraq as well. Oops again. "We won"? We'll see.

Quote: "Why do you think so poorly of Iraqis and their ability to government themselves? "

Does it sound as though I think poorly of them? I've mentioned the 100 thousand of them that have died by our hands in the last 5 years, twice. Are you even aware of how many have died. Are you aware how many have been tortured by us and our independent "contractors", Are you aware the trauma and hatred we've planted in the youths of Iraq as our squads march families out in the middle of the night at gunpoint doing house to house searches? Better yet, do you even care? This is far from being over and it is anything but "won".

Bush 1 knew there was no exit strategy and even told his idiotic dumbass son. Here we are.

[cheddar bob]

Bshea, I'm about as left, and opposite from you as I can get and would probably rather chew on tin foil than to spend more than five minutes with you, but this was about the most correct statement I've seen around here in awhile...

Rarely do I come across someone to spectacular wrong, hyperbolic and distortionist in everything they write.

Tip of the cap, sir. Even with the missing verb part.

[Sstashmoo]

"Tip of the cap, sir."

Yawnnn...







Yawwwnnnn....

[BShea]

Sure he was up to no good, and with our help. Like when we supplied him with mustard and sarin gas to use against the Iranians, he instead used it on the Kurds. Slaughtering 300 thousand of them. Oops! you forgot that one didn't ya? That's what Colin Powell meant by "WMD's UNACCOUNTED for". We gave it to ya, where the hell is it? Saddam was our boy, remember that? Hell, we even supplied the AG crop duster planes to dispense the stuff on civilians.

So that means he shouldn't have to account for it? That he's free to do whatever he pleases? Did we give him weapons to commit crimes with them? No. Nice logic on your part, tho. And you fail to mention the WMD and conventional weapons the Baathists bought from other nations.

Quote: "Violations of the agreement that halted -- but did not end -- the 1990-91 war."

Total nonsense. This is the first time ever have I read "OPERATION Desert storm" referred to as a "war". And it was indeed over. You and your ilk have been trying to link the two incursions in to one. Nice try, but it don't hunt. A 10 year break in fighting? Please, you can't be serious. The reason your ilk has effectively brainwashed you into believing this is they have no reason for the 2001 invasion, linking it to Iraq invading Kuwait gives it purpose. Very Weak..

Show me the peace treaty. If the war was "over" as you claim, why were there UN no-fly zones? Why were we bombing them throughout the 1990s?

Did you read the Congressional authorization for the 2003 invasion? No, you didn't. If you did, you're lying here then, because the U.S. Congress noted right from the start that Iraq was violating the ceasefire.

Do I need to define ceasefire for you? Are you genuinely that stupid?

My sentiments exactly. The majority of the people that were liberated wanted to be.

Well, those Nazis that wanted to be liberated sure put up a helluva fight against it, didn't they? You are amazing. I've never seen such a fundamental failure to grasp basic history in an adult.

It wasn't. The point made was that our government lied to us repeatedly and their flippiance regarding it was apparent. They even admitted it. It's a proven fact they ignored intelligence that did not support their agenda of invading Iraq, a sovereign nation. The truth. Do you use Google? Maybe it's your search engine.

Bullshit. You dodged something I pointed out by offering up the "greeted as liberators" nonsense. My point was that you were completely wrong about how democracy is born, and I pointed out to you some obvious examples of countries that become democratic only through war. Your response to that was the Cheney stuff. And now you're dodging again. Christ, you're not very good at this ...

Quote: "Face it: We won."

I think that was said in 91 regarding Iraq as well. Oops again. "We won"? We'll see.

We won the war within the limited aims it had in 1991 - liberating Kuwait. And I'm sorry, as much as you lust after an American defeat on the battlefield, it's not going to happen today. We won, and for all his many flaws, Bush accomplished it. Sticks in your craw, obviously.

Does it sound as though I think poorly of them?

Yes, it does. You believe them incapable of sustaining Western democracy and you believe their central government will fail to hold the country together. I have greater faith in 'em.

I've mentioned the 100 thousand of them that have died by our hands in the last 5 years, twice. Are you even aware of how many have died. Are you aware how many have been tortured by us and our independent "contractors", Are you aware the trauma and hatred we've planted in the youths of Iraq as our squads march families out in the middle of the night at gunpoint doing house to house searches? Better yet, do you even care? This is far from being over and it is anything but "won".

War is hell. Sherman did far, far worse in 1864-65. Far worse. Yet not many Georgians are car bombing the Yankees these days. And it's evident you don't know much true history, otherwise you'd know what our occupying forces did in Germany. The Iraqis have gotten off lightly.

Bush 1 knew there was no exit strategy and even told his idiotic dumbass son. Here we are.

Bush 1 didn't have a mandate to topple Hussein. The allied coalition was fragile, and several nations said they would not commit troops if the goal was to occupy Iraq. In retrospect, a mistake. We had an Army then of more than 1 million troops, and could have pulled it off a lot easier than today. A missed opportunity.

The exit strategy is a simple one: Ensure the freely elected Iraqi government can hold the country together, ensure human rights, etc. We're closer to that goal than ever. But you choose to ignore progress because it doesn't fit your ideological narrative. I bet you thought the surge would result in something like the Tet offensive and massive U.S. and iraqi deaths. Wrong then and you're wrong now.

Our troops have accomplished something that will look very different in the history books in 100 years. That is, if Obama doesn't abandon our ally.

[BShea]

Click on this:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ243.107

That's the joint Congressional resolution authorizing the Iraq invasion.

Three times it references the violations of the 1991 cease fire.

Three.

I guess my ilk included Congress and the U.N.

Not the company I prefer to keep, for the sake of this current argument, I'll take 'em over your lies and distortions.

Again: Three times.

How bad does it turn to be this wrong?

[Sstashmoo]

BShea,

I'll give you credit, at least you post my actual words and respond to them, unlike the underhanded skulduggerous trickery that Cheddar employs by copy and pasting the words of others when quoting me.

Back to the debate:

There was no war going, period. You are really discrediting yourself by saying this. We were at war in the late 90's? If we were at war why did it take an act of congress to get involved in 2003? Is it a double war. Is there such a thing? Your argument is disintegrating.

Quote: "Bush accomplished it."

Conjecture, but if you are referring to the destruction of our economy. Yes he did. Anything that guy ever touched, failed.

Quote: "The exit strategy is a simple one:"

Oh really? Smarter men than you have been trying to figure it out for the last 6 years and have not. Maybe you need to send them your "simple" plan, I'm sure they can't wait to hear from you. We are just going to leave slowly and hope for the best. That's the strategy. The same way...

[cheddar bob]

Attachment 469
I tried to copy and paste everything in your posts so they would not be taken out of context. It's not my fault you somehow can't figure out something simple as a quote function.

[PurpleHeart]

See that's the problem with Ted

Everytime he [[topic) comes up it is not his music that we [[or anybody else) talk about, it's about his politics.

When it comes to Ted, he is mutually exclusive.

He can't play guitar for crap

And his politics stinks

enough with Ted and the horse he rode in on