Moore, Nugent & Wilson Sound off about Detroit

[Sstashmoo]

""So anyone who scooted off to Canada or faked a medical condition in avoiding the draft is fine with you?""

Knowing the circumstances? Absolutely. It was war there was no winning. There has been a 4o year debate whether it was even a "war" at all. Being patriotic does not mean submit blindly to your government. You know people that went to VietNam? So do I. And I know many that are F'd up till this day because of it.

Had your relation went to VietNam like mine did, you'd probably have a different take on it. The malaria, the jungle rot, The heat, humidity, monsoon rains, deployment without ammo, people dying for no reason, the Agent orange and all the other deadly shit our government was subjecting our troops to. No, I have no ill will for anyone who could think for themselves.

[MoparDan]

""So anyone who scooted off to Canada or faked a medical condition in avoiding the draft is fine with you?""

Knowing the circumstances? Absolutely. It was war there was no winning. There has been a 4o year debate whether it was even a "war" at all. Being patriotic does not mean submit blindly to your government. You know people that went to VietNam? So do I. And I know many that are F'd up till this day because of it.

Had your relation went to VietNam like mine did, you'd probably have a different take on it. The malaria, the jungle rot, The heat, humidity, monsoon rains, deployment without ammo, people dying for no reason, the Agent orange and all the other deadly shit our government was subjecting our troops to. No, I have no ill will for anyone who could think for themselves.

Uh, my dad was there for two tours & last I remember, we were related at the time. His name is on my birth certificate so I'll assume it's legal.
I grew up in a military community & lots of fathers/sons went. Some came back screwed up while others survived it. My sister's first husband came back whacked out & they divorced shortly after he returned to the states. He disappeared never seeing his daughter grow up; none of us saw him again.
You're completely missing the point: Avoiding war while cheerleading others to go fight.
Bill Clinton is good in your book for avoiding service at that time? Anyone who disagreed with or protested the Iraq invasion are patriots?

[BShea]

"It is wrong for anyone who refused to serve when called to now advocate that other server. Simple. Not hate. Just fact."

That would include William Jefferson Clinton, correct?

Funny, the "chickenhawk" nonsense didn't get much use on the Left in the 1990s.

And I'd add that those who advocate that only those who have served have some moral authority to call for war, the other side of the coin is that only those who have served can call for not going to war. That's a dangerous precedent I don't want us to find ourselves in.

[pffft]

I don't think that most of those here are saying that only people who served in the military have the moral authority to "call for" war, however, the strident tone taken by Nugent, disparaging anyone who doesn't agree with him as "un-American" and blasting those who didn't support the war in Iraq as unpatriotic ...that kind of guy leaves himself open to the charge of "chickenhawk" by those of us in Michigan who know his real history, which was anything but heroic.
Lots of people did not choose to serve and either found other ways, or frankly, fled. But they didn't set themselves up as a moral authority, passing judgment on others...

[Ravine]

Just chiming in:
All of this talk is much more attention than Ted Nugent deserves. Ted is a self-adoring asshole with a big mouth, and he's not even a very good guitar player.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Anyone who disagreed with or protested the Iraq invasion are patriots?"

Absolutely.

[MoparDan]

Quote: "Anyone who disagreed with or protested the Iraq invasion are patriots?"

Absolutely.

Bill Clinton skirting the draft is fine with you too?

[MoparDan]

Just chiming in:
All of this talk is much more attention than Ted Nugent deserves. Ted is a self-adoring asshole with a big mouth, and he's not even a very good guitar player.

Maybe next time Stevie Wonder or Bob Seger could be hit up for their opinion. Just sayin'.

[oldredfordette]

We're talking about Ted Nugent, if you want to talk about Bill Clinton, start another thread.

[BShea]

Quote: "Anyone who disagreed with or protested the Iraq invasion are patriots?"

Absolutely.

The only thing as silly as people who think dissent should be stifled thinking themselves patriots is the dissenters thinking they're patriots because they're just because they're dissenting.

Both sides think they're right. Doesn't make 'em any more patriotic. Jingoism and dissent aren't the bedrocks of patriotism.

"I'm against the war, so I'm a patriot!" is isn't patriotism. It's egotism. Why? Because a helluva lot of people support the war and think they're right, too. No one has a monopoly on patriotism.

[Sstashmoo]

"Bill Clinton skirting the draft is fine with you too?"

Considering there has been no legitimate need for a selective service draft since 1945, anyone who has objected to surrendering their freedom since to be forced in to some abstract geopolitical squabble, or less, is understandable.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of Bill Clinton.

[BShea]

"Bill Clinton skirting the draft is fine with you too?"

Considering there has been no legitimate need for a selective service draft since 1945, anyone who has objected to surrendering their freedom since to be forced in to some abstract geopolitical squabble, or less, is understandable.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of Bill Clinton.

So it's up to individuals to decide when there is a legitimate need for a draft? Can I decide which laws I'm going to obey?

As citizens, we have a moral obligation to do our duty to the nation when it calls, even if we're not gung-ho about it. That's part of the deal in being an American.

Not everything is black and white, and many people considered Japanese and German actions in the 1930s to be nothing more than "some abstract geopolitical squabble."

People seem plenty ready to bitch about "surrendering their personal freedom" than actually defending it. And that defense is more than just repelling an invasion of these shores. I'd like to think people have more foresight than that.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "So it's up to individuals to decide when there is a legitimate need for a draft?"

This is a democracy "by the people". As much as some would like this to be a socialist country, it isn't. A quick check of recent politicians and their records on decision making, most aren't qualified to instate a draft or even declare war. Alqueda members attacked and destroyed the World trade center, Bush and his cabinet invaded Iraq on lies. 100 thousand people have died, they continue to die. You want blind allegiance to this sort of government? Forget it.

Quote: "Can I decide which laws I'm going to obey?"

Sure can, people do it all the time.

Quote: "As citizens, we have a moral obligation to do our duty to the nation when it calls"

We also have a duty to the constitution to not allow an oppressive government to seize absolute power and surrender our liberty and freedoms. Or do you just do what you're told?

Quote: "I'd like to think people have more foresight than that."

Me too.

[cheddar bob]

You want blind allegiance to this sort of government? Forget it.

Quote: "Can I decide which laws I'm going to obey?"

Sure can, people do it all the time.

Wow, such a reversal of opinion on if you can break laws and who can break them...

Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 2435
Registered: 02-2007


Posted on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 9:57 pm:


21 million, 10 million? 500? Who cares the number, the fact is we cannot have people with total disregard for our laws treating our borders as though they do not even exist. As citizens we must abide by the laws of our land. I have little compassion for anyone that would enter here unlawfully and knowingly break our laws and refuse to leave.



Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 2987
Registered: 02-2007


Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 1:02 am:


Quote: "labor of those I demonize as subhuman."

From the freedictionary.com

il·le·gal [[-lgl)
adj.
1. Prohibited by law.

What part of the above complicated definition are you having trouble with?

Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 3457
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 6:04 pm: This country is due for a renaissance to patriotism. Long over due. Our country and IT's interests need to be put first always. Love it or get the f*ck out.

So, you act all patriotic except for when you don't feel like it, and people can break our laws except for the people you say can't break them. What happened to "As citizens we must abide by the laws of our land."? What hypocrite.

[Sstashmoo]

What a garbled mess.

This is not my quote: "Quote: "labor of those I demonize as subhuman."

Why don't you try telling the truth?

[RJ_Spangler]

I had the pleasure of meeting Mary Wilson once when I was playing on the Mitch Albom Show. She was very nice and quite beautiful! Another time doing Mitch's show I met Steven King, who was very cool! Mitch seems okay but NEVER says anything to us.

[BShea]

Sure can, people do it all the time.

And then you deserve the punishment for breaking those laws.

In the case of dodging the draft in wartime, I'm of the belief that it's treason and you should be executed. In public.

We also have a duty to the constitution to not allow an oppressive government to seize absolute power and surrender our liberty and freedoms. Or do you just do what you're told?

Well, then that happens, we'll talk about it. But there is no draft, and the hyperbole about Bush et al as Constitution-killing bogeyman of the Left is nothing but dodging the issue we're talking about. You have no fewer rights now than you did on Sept. 10, 2001, unless you got your rocks off on take box cutters on planes and checking out "Car Bombing For Dummies" at the Library of Congress while talking to known terrorists on your cell phone in Waziristan and not expecting to draw FBI interest.

You don't get to freely pick/choose what laws you obey. You can, but you then deserve the scorn and punishment for doing so.

This is a democracy "by the people". As much as some would like this to be a socialist country, it isn't.

Well, let's check out a few countries that today have compulsory military or national service: Finland, Russia, Germany, Greece, Turkey, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Columbia, Georgia, Brazil, Bolivia, Estonia, Mexico, Taiwan, Switzerland, Bermuda, Philipines, South Korea, China ... and a host of others.

Yep, some socialist countries in there. Some really crappy places. But quite a few Western democracies, too.

And "the people" of the United States consent to laws enacted by our represtatives in Congress. Those reps set the laws and punishment for failure of "the people" to obey them. All part of the social contract, etc.

I'm well aware there are plenty of people that value their individual freedom far more than any obligation to serve when the nation calls, or they want to pick and choose when they obey that obligation, and they allow better men to go to war. Nothing new. The Left in wartime tends to scorn those who serve as simple sheep blinding willing to follow proganda of the military-industrial conplex and other Smedley Butler claptrap. Let's just say I've got a bit of experience on this one ...

[cheddar bob]

What a garbled mess.

This is not my quote: "Quote: "labor of those I demonize as subhuman."

Why don't you try telling the truth?

That was you quoting someone else. So it was your words, you were just repeating what someone else said. I know that the previous forum's quote function was well beyond your capabilities, so I never begrudged you for not using it. This new forum has a quote button, so even you should be able to figure it out. Try it sometime.

Faced with undeniable proof of your hypocrisy, spelled out for you in black and white, and that is your response? One sentence that wasn't yours, but was in fact, your feeble-minded way of quoting other people? How about if you comment on the crux of the post, that is that you are demonstratively a hypocrite?

[Lloyd]

Wow, this post sure went far afield since I put in my two cents worth yesterday. I am, however, willing to comment on Bill Clinton's skirting of the draft.

My comments were directed at those who avoided going to Viet Nam at all costs but who now strongly advocate fighting the current wars. This is, in my opinion, just wrong. If you are not willing to serve, then you should just shut up and not burden others with your armchair generaling.

Yes, Bill Clinton skirted the draft but I do not recall him ever once advocating going to war. He gave Bush the benefit of professional courtesy by remaining mostly silent about Iraq, even though I would speculate that Clinton feels as I do about that travesty. How anyone can, then, lump him with the chickenheart, yellowbellyed, lilly livered who so strongly advocate others going to fight is beyond me; that is, I believe it shows an ignorance of the basic facts that is beyond the scope of my understanding.

Now, back to the real subject of the thread. Everyone is totally entitled to their opinion. I don't personally care whether Moore, Nugent or Wilson are from Detroit or not as long as they have the best for Detroit in their hearts when they talk. Yes, Nugent is compromised, not by his actions in avoiding the draft <which I, incidently, agree with>, but by his subsequent rabid pro war stance. Moore is compromised by this inability to make a true documentary <although I personally agree with the slant of all his shows> as that highlights his inability not to let his highly liberal leaning get in the way. Wilson, on the other hand, seems to speak purely from the heart, a bit hopeful, or maybe naive, but from the heart. All this to the side: this is America still so each of them is entitled to their opinion, as we are entitled to pick and choose whose opinion to lend credence to.

[MoparDan]

My aim is to point out the hypocrisy of people wanting to play both sides of the fence while claiming to have principles. We're all hypocrites to a certain extent, some are just much more blatant & shameless.
I certainly wasn't old enough for Vietnam or the draft, but yet directly affected by it; a father already there, one brother drafted with the possibility of the next one going, a brother-in-law who snapped after doing his tour then disappeared after my sister divorced him, not to mention several in our neighborhood who, while against it, still showed up when called. This isn't anything unique to me or anyone else. If some were able to avoid it legally by student deferments, actual medical conditions or hardships, then that really shouldn't be held against them. My take on a draft is that no one, regardless of class, should be excluded; otherwise it's mainly the poor or less-than-well-connected kids who wind up doing the fighting, suffering & dying.

The only reason I even mentioned Clinton is because how often he's called a draft dodger, yet Cheney, who received several deferments, is considered a great American. For Nugent to go to the extent he did to avoid the draft then have the audacity to urge others to join up to fight is deplorable; he needs to unwrap himself in the flag & put on a cheerleader's skirt. What I have found amazing/incredible during my active duty & reserve military service is how the majority will defend the likes of a Nugent without question. I've encountered younger members who think more critically & will to listen to different sides without name calling or getting in someone's face. However, they make up a small minority & will probably not make the military a career which is unfortunate for the country.

The only reason why Nugent or Moore were even asked to chime in is because they are polarizing figures. You'll rarely find anyone famous with a true thought process being asked what they think; there probably aren't that many, but no one will take the time or energy to seek them out. So, stuck with Nugent/Moore from the D-List, we get what we deserve.

[BShea]

Yes, Bill Clinton skirted the draft but I do not recall him ever once advocating going to war.

No, he just sent American troops into combat as commander in chief.

He gave Bush the benefit of professional courtesy by remaining mostly silent about Iraq, even though I would speculate that Clinton feels as I do about that travesty.

Um, the Clinton administration was the architect-in-chief of the movement to topple Hussein and the Baathists. Were you around in the 1990s? Who do you think coined "regime change" in relation to Iraq? That country didn't just suddenly spring up on the radar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/.../clinton.iraq/

"We have to defend our future from these predators of the 21st century. They feed on the free flow of information and technology. They actually take advantage of the freer movement of people, information and ideas.And they will be all the more lethal if we allow them to build arsenals of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. We simply cannot allow that to happen. There is no more clear example of this threat than Saddam Hussein's Iraq. His regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region and the security of all the rest of us." -- Bill Clinton

Maybe Iraq was only a threat when a Democrat was in the White House? When a Republican does something about it, it's a bad thing. OK to talk about the threat, bad to do something about it. Got it.

[CountrySquire]

I put Michael Moore in the same category.....message gets lost by the antics used to convey said message. He might have more support if he wasn't such a d-bag about how he presents his opinions & arguments.

Oh, and if he developed & presented some real ideas for positive change.

I like Micheal Moore's message; is he over the top and prone to hype? Sure! But in a media market that has Rush Limbaugh, Bill O' Reilly and Ann Coulter in it, he needs to be.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "That was you quoting someone else. So it was your words,"

So, following that same logic, if I copy and paste a Detroit News article, those become MY words as well? Sheesh...

Quote: "This new forum has a quote button, so even you should be able to figure it out. Try it sometime."

No thanks.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Faced with undeniable proof of your hypocrisy,"

Translated: Since I made up a bunch of bullshit, I'd like to see you refute it anyway.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "In the case of dodging the draft in wartime, I'm of the belief that it's treason and you should be executed. In public."

First we have not been involved in a "War" since World War II. Everything since has been labeled a "conflict" or "operation". Anyone who thinks we are involved in a "war" now, is pretty clueless to any sort of reality.

We also have a duty to the constitution to not allow an oppressive government to seize absolute power and surrender our liberty and freedoms. Or do you just do what you're told?

Quotes: "Well, then that happens, we'll talk about it."
"You have no fewer rights now than you did on Sept. 10, 2001"

Total nonsense, the suspension of Habeus Corpus, the Patriot Act allowing unbridled invasion into our privacy by the government, wire taps, video surveillance, etc.


"This is a democracy "by the people". As much as some would like this to be a socialist country, it isn't."

Quote: "And "the people" of the United States consent to laws enacted by our represtatives in Congress. Those reps set the laws and punishment for failure of "the people" to obey them. All part of the social contract, etc.""

"Social Contract" is a theory, not law. I think you're confusing our democracy with a dictatorship. And freedom is a gift depending on one's political beliefs.

Quote: "I'm well aware there are plenty of people that value their individual freedom far more than any obligation to serve when the nation calls, or they want to pick and choose when they obey that obligation, and they allow better men to go to war. "

By that logic, WORSE men refuse to involve themselves with travesties of diplomacy like Iraq and VietNam?

I'm not a gambler, but I would have loaded up on the outcome if Bush and Rumsfeld would have started a draft. It would have been an all-out revolt, Guaranteed.