Oh, so to assert a view with "certainty" is offputting? Sorry about that. I'll pussyfoot around in the future.

Anyone with experience in real estate [[or most other undertakings) realizes that there is no such thing as a "great deal" on land or anything else in an arms length transaction. Most people were shocked that the Fisher Building, the parking structure and the Kahn Building sold for $12,500,000. It sold for what it is worth, The properties were auctioned worldwide - exposed to a vast market - for a considerable period of time and bidders - there were twelve of them as I recall - had to put up a substantial deposit for the right to bid. One qualified bidder offered $12,500,000; eleven others thought that was too much. Most of those with little or no experience thought it was shockingly too little. Who's correct?

Anything exposed to the market - especially at a widely respected auction - goes for the highest price possible.

I am mystified that so many supposedly think "stick built" is a derogatory term, a euphemism for low quality. An amazing lack of comprehension. Every $10 million home sold is stick built. The home you live in is stick built. It's a term used for a type of construction and it has no bearing on quality. Of course, stick built construction can be shoddy just as steel and concrete construction can be shoddy. [[Remember the Hancock Tower in Boston where most of the windows blew out in heavy winds? Remember the high rise casino in Vegas where construction was stopped for several months while millions of dollars were spent rebuilding a faulty foundation?) Also, the type of project determines the construction method. The new red wings arena although low rise must be built of steel and concrete, for example. Any architects or construction engineers on the forum could explain it better. Still, some on the forum will not be swayed.

You are not justified in criticizing VG's two other apartments projects in Detroit. VG didn't build those projects but from what I hear they are vastly improved as the result of the expenditure of several million bucks. Southen, what the hell would satisfy you? [[By the way, I went on VG's website and learned what I could about the company. It appears they have built high quality projects around the country.)

Your response to the question I posed is not unreasonable I suppose. And of course, if you owned the land and could legally do so, you could reopen the bidding for the site. That I'm sure would resolve the question and I for one would be very curious to see the result.

Another question - to which there is no right answer at this time - is how many of the current and proposed apartment developments, new or rehabbed, will be profitable in 5 years and/or can be sold at a pre-tax profit?

I just read that Gilbert's First National Building is a financial home run; it was pointed out that he bought it for $8 million and invested $110 million in upgrading it, a $118 million investment. However, it was just appraised at $110 million, so he's at an $8 million loss at this point. [[All of which is pre-tax by the way so it is or probably will be a good investment.)