Hamtramck City Council Now Majority Muslim

[G-DDT]

Only if you went to Europe and seen reality instead of riding your bike around Detroit asking about a Nike store...

Nike store?

Where do you come up with that? In fact, where does anyone with a rational argument hope to get by in turning any thing of what would seem an objective argument into a chance to make personal attacks on those they disagree with?

I do not excuse the actions of these men.

Don't assume you know me and where I am coming from. Far more talented, trained, and capable persons have tried, and they always fail. Without pity partying or attempting to win this argument by making it a personal expose to elicit sympathy, all I will say to you is I have seen quite a good share of reality, bub.

[Wheels]

Nike store?

Where do you come up with that? In fact, where does anyone with a rational argument hope to get by in turning any thing of what would seem an objective argument into a chance to make personal attacks on those they disagree with?

I do not excuse the actions of these men.

Don't assume you know me and where I am coming from. Far more talented, trained, and capable persons have tried, and they always fail. Without pity partying or attempting to win this argument by making it a personal expose to elicit sympathy, all I will say to you is I have seen quite a good share of reality, bub.

Then why do you live in a delusion?

[dtowncitylover]

Then why do you live in a delusion?

This whole thread is full of delusions and paranoia.

[Honky Tonk]

This whole thread is full of delusions....

Much like the C.O.D., S.O.M., or the U.S.A., for that matter.

[canuck]

This whole thread is full of delusions and paranoia.

Definitely. I mean, how else would you explain the fact that most if not all the perpetrators of the Paris attacks were French muslims born in the Greater Paris region? Don't be paranoid about your Muslim neighbors. Just don't be suckers about the ideology behind the terror. It comes from a backwards component of all the religious abracadabra you can dream up within the Muslim faith.

The Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the bombers at air bases and calling it a holy war to rescue the Christians in the Near and Middle East. No wonder Europe, the US and Canada don't want to team up with the Russians in Syria. Assad is only one factor in the game. We are of course dangerously close to a worldwide event of catastrophic proportions if cool heads don't prevail.

My view on Islam in the West is that the revolution must come from within, that Muslim leaders in France and the UK have to step up to the plate and present an alternative to the lifestyle demands they put on their followers. Much like the Catholic popes, John XXIII and PaulVI did more than a half century ago with Vatican II. The changes have to come from within. Women have to pray side by side with men, veils must be disposed, etc...

On the subject of Alcohol, [[an arabic word) Algerians consume quite a bit of alcohol even if it is not tolerated by their religious leaders. Some drink in the few bars that exist in cities or at home. They hide for the most part their drinking and it is only another example of how people are bound to hypocrisy, and denunciations, and pettiness, all in the name of goodness. Bullshit.

[aj3647]

There's an underlying issue at work here. And its one that us on the right don't understand. Why is it not acceptable to discuss the evil actions of Muslim radicals without being branded as Islamophobic.

You may choose to attack me as an 'Murican' --- or explain something to me. One of those choices is productive. The other, well, I'll generalize as close-minded.

Discussing the evils of ISIL = not Islamophobic
Comparing the Muslim population of Hamtramck to the Nazis = Islamophobic

Do you understand the distinction? That happened in this thread. Followed by Honky Tonk wishing that two other DYes posters would "have their heads cut off" for defending the Muslims in Hamtramck. The Right Wing bigotry in this thread has reached KKK-levels.

[jt1]

But this isn't true. Radical Islam enjoys widespread support among Muslims. Perhaps not a majority, but most surveys indicate a large proportion, perhaps a plurality, support violent action against the West. Israel, in particular, is almost universally condemned.

Probably a somewhat less popular notion among U.S. Muslims, but not in Europe.

Please cite 'most surveys' that you reference with links to actual sources

[canuck]

Discussing the evils of ISIL = not Islamophobic
Comparing the Muslim population of Hamtramck to the Nazis = Islamophobic

Do you understand the distinction? That happened in this thread. Followed by Honky Tonk wishing that two other DYes posters would "have their heads cut off" for defending the Muslims in Hamtramck followed by Zacha discussing the perils of "race-mixing." The Right Wing bigotry in this thread has reached KKK-levels.

You've really twisted things around, eh?

[dtowncitylover]

Definitely. I mean, how else would you explain the fact that most if not all the perpetrators of the Paris attacks were French muslims born in the Greater Paris region? Don't be paranoid about your Muslim neighbors. Just don't be suckers about the ideology behind the terror. It comes from a backwards component of all the religious abracadabra you can dream up within the Muslim faith.

The Russian Orthodox priests are blessing the bombers at air bases and calling it a holy war to rescue the Christians in the Near and Middle East. No wonder Europe, the US and Canada don't want to team up with the Russians in Syria. Assad is only one factor in the game. We are of course dangerously close to a worldwide event of catastrophic proportions if cool heads don't prevail.

My view on Islam in the West is that the revolution must come from within, that Muslim leaders in France and the UK have to step up to the plate and present an alternative to the lifestyle demands they put on their followers. Much like the Catholic popes, John XXIII and PaulVI did more than a half century ago with Vatican II. The changes have to come from within. Women have to pray side by side with men, veils must be disposed, etc...

On the subject of Alcohol, [[an arabic word) Algerians consume quite a bit of alcohol even if it is not tolerated by their religious leaders. Some drink in the few bars that exist in cities or at home. They hide for the most part their drinking and it is only another example of how people are bound to hypocrisy, and denunciations, and pettiness, all in the name of goodness. Bullshit.

I love how we are critiquing the way Muslims pray and dress because of what a horribly small amount of extremist Muslim men have done. This makes no sense.

Orthodox Jews pray separately [[in fact in one synagogue I've been in looks like the women are in jail). Orthodox Jewish woman are to wear wigs or a full hair covering and only skirts. Orthodox [[small "o") Catholic women still wear veils in church. Should we go into these religious communities and tell them to have a "revolution"? It really isn't the way Muslims are dressing or praying that is leading to extremism.

I would recommend this article for reading. Especially the last two paragraphs.

http://www.thenation.com/article/wha...sis-prisoners/

Wanna create more extremists? Alienate and disparage your Muslim co-worker, neighbor, or classmate. Demand they "assimilate" or lest they be deported.

[aj3647]

You've really twisted things around, eh?

Show us on the doll where the Hamtramck City Council touched you.

[Zacha341]

Excuse me, I'm a registered democrat, yet mostly independent politically speaking, and NOT a proponent for racial segregation per my comment #86:
'Ok, here's the thing IMO, mixing cultures and races is never going to result in a perfect 'utopia'...'

To clarify: I have no problem with races, and cultures mixing. I am of mixed racial heritage. To clarify, my comment is in regards to different races and cultures LIVING together in 'society', side-by-side.

Again, as I stated per my observation, there's going to be conflict, unfortunately. I'm not happy about it, but as a realist I know people are resistant to change.

Conflict, prejudice, bigotry etc. must be addressed - out in the open - by dialogue and interaction first. As I tried to convey, name calling promotes censorship allowing those holding on to their bigotry for example to fester!

See below:
'Conflict is part of the melting pot. What's worse, the person or groups forced to censor their prejudices left unaddressed, becomes far worse.

...."have their heads cut off" for defending the Muslims in Hamtramck followed by Zacha discussing the perils of "race-mixing." The Right Wing bigotry in this thread has reached KKK-levels.

[canuck]

I love how we are critiquing the way Muslims pray and dress because of what a horribly small amount of extremist Muslim men have done. This makes no sense.

Orthodox Jews pray separately [[in fact in one synagogue I've been in looks like the women are in jail). Orthodox Jewish woman are to wear wigs or a full hair covering and only skirts. Orthodox [[small "o") Catholic women still wear veils in church. Should we go into these religious communities and tell them to have a "revolution"? It really isn't the way Muslims are dressing or praying that is leading to extremism.

I would recommend this article for reading. Especially the last two paragraphs.

http://www.thenation.com/article/wha...sis-prisoners/

Wanna create more extremists? Alienate and disparage your Muslim co-worker, neighbor, or classmate. Demand they "assimilate" or lest they be deported.

Yes, that is why I say it is time that religious communities stop and look at the world around them and not see evil in the fact women and men can pray together.

I already said I am not someone to tell another how to live. But you know our lay society, our institutions say one thing and there are people in our midst who do not treat their co-religionists fairly in the name of God. That is not exclusively a Muslim problem. Orthodox Jews as you point out are in a strict self-imposed ghetto which seems kind of lame viewed from here, but can be extremely violent in Israel, the occupied territories, etc...

It's one thing to know and accept the fact Orthodox Jews for the.most part avoid contact with their non Jewish neighbors, even reformed Jews, but my point is that we accept certain barbaric practices because we accept the principle of religious freedom.
There was a group of ultra conservative Jews in the Montreal region that lived in a town where kids didn't even learn to study either English or French, only Yiddish. I spare you some of the other details. Look up "Lev Tahor"on the web.

[Bham1982]

Please cite 'most surveys' that you reference with links to actual sources

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/

https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/...-widely-spread

Seems pretty clear that mainstream Muslim worldviews are often incompatible with Western societies, hence the problems in Western Europe.

[Zacha341]

Thank you for revising your comment regarding my comment AJ.

[dtowncitylover]

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/

https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/...-widely-spread

Seems pretty clear that mainstream Muslim worldviews are often incompatible with Western societies, hence the problems in Western Europe.

All this tells me, especially the first one because it has more data in it, is the Muslims have wide ranging views and opinions with American and Balkan Muslims being more liberal than their Middle Eastern neighbors.

Also Sharia Law DOES NOT EQUAL terrorism. Do I want Sharia law here? NO. Because we are not an Islamic nation.

Sorry but nothing in those articles makes me paranoid or believe that the majority of Muslims, or even a large percentage of Muslims, actually want "death to Americans".

[canuck]

Show us on the doll where the Hamtramck City Council touched you.

I don't know yet.

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't believe they will enact a ban of alcohol on Hamtramck. If they did, it would piss me off for you guys and it might do you also. You can be milquetoast about something as light as making an obligatory stop in Detroit for a six-pack because your town is dry and you don't care that much. The problem is "if" there happens a mishmash of religious edicts and by-laws. As has been stated earlier, there are dry towns and counties in the US that are dry because of looney religious views.

[canuck]

All this tells me, especially the first one because it has more data in it, is the Muslims have wide ranging views and opinions with American and Balkan Muslims being more liberal than their Middle Eastern neighbors.

Also Sharia Law DOES NOT EQUAL terrorism. Do I want Sharia law here? NO. Because we are not an Islamic nation.

Sorry but nothing in those articles makes me paranoid or believe that the majority of Muslims, or even a large percentage of Muslims, actually want "death to Americans".

Yes, but let me remind you that all the perpetrators of the Paris attacks were born and bred in Paris. They did not grow up being tortured and maligned any more than they would have in Algeria or Syria, in fact they probably had a good chance of a better life in France. They chose to kill their countrymen and women because of an ideology borne of Muslim thought.

I am not saying that your muslim neighbors are suspect but that religious abracadabra from many other sources be they Christian, Jewish, and others can undermine lay precepts that took a long time to develop such as the long road to equality between men and women, gays, ethnicities. In other words, tell it like you see it, if something looks screwy, chances are they are screwy.

[dtowncitylover]

Yes, but let me remind you that all the perpetrators of the Paris attacks were born and bred in Paris. They did not grow up being tortured and maligned any more than they would have in Algeria or Syria, in fact they probably had a good chance of a better life in France. They chose to kill their countrymen and women because of an ideology borne of Muslim thought.

I am not saying that your muslim neighbors are suspect but that religious abracadabra from many other sources be they Christian, Jewish, and others can undermine lay precepts that took a long time to develop such as the long road to equality between men and women, gays, ethnicities. In other words, tell it like you see it, if something looks screwy, chances are they are screwy.

I get that. But French society and American society are much different. I think it's harder to be a Muslim in France than it is here, because of their official sanction of secularism. Here, we celebrate religion almost to a fault. So a young, religious Muslim might be ostracized in France because he practices and would turn against his native country because of that. While here, because we still put so much faith in faith, that a young religious Muslim wouldn't need extremist Islam because s/he find no need.

[canuck]

I get that. But French society and American society are much different. I think it's harder to be a Muslim in France than it is here, because of their official sanction of secularism. Here, we celebrate religion almost to a fault. So a young, religious Muslim might be ostracized in France because he practices and would turn against his native country because of that. While here, because we still put so much faith in faith, that a young religious Muslim wouldn't need extremist Islam because s/he find no need.

Well you may be surprised in time about what happens in the US. There have been Muslims in France for a lot longer than in the US and Canada. Don't forget the terrorist attacks in Canada this summer. A Muslim fundamentalist drove his car into soldiers, killed one near an army base south of Montreal and then the attacks on the Parliamnet in Ottawa. Both Canadian Muslims.

There was a plot to derail an Amtrak train between Toronto and NYC over a bridge in Niagara recently foiled.
http://globalnews.ca/news/502551/rae...cedented-plot/

Ahmed Ressam, another who lived in Montreal was arrested in the nineties for trying to cross the border, his car trunk filled with explosive materials plotting to bomb LAX airport...

WE had at least 12 girls and boys, teenagers leaving Montreal to join ISIS this year.

[Wesley Mouch]

I love how we are critiquing the way Muslims pray and dress because of what a horribly small amount of extremist Muslim men have done. This makes no sense
...
Wanna create more extremists? Alienate and disparage your Muslim co-worker, neighbor, or classmate. Demand they "assimilate" or lest they be deported.

Your argument is a common one. It suggests that the problems in Islam are very small and isolated. It doesn't seem that way to me, but I do agree we should be careful not to lump all Islamists together.

Criticizing how Muslim men oppress Muslim women is fair and appropriate. It is not acceptable. And its not consistent with Western societies. My criticism of intra-Muslim oppression isn't based on extremism at all. Don't connect the two.

We can be critical of Islam, and not be Islamophobic.

As to the 'create more extremists' comment, that really troubles me. Its also a common meme. Suggests we created the problem, and all we have to do is 'stop poking the beast' -- and everything will be OK. I don't see that letting Bullies carry on with their bad behavior is the best approach.

[kathy2trips]

I'm waiting to hear from Muslim leaders in government and religion to make statements denouncing the violence in Paris and other places, and their promise to combat Islamic terrorism in any way possible. This includes informing on fellow Muslims and assisting the authorities in insuring the safety of this country. I'd like to hear how they plan on doing it. If they don't, that tells me all I need to know.

[Richard]

I'm waiting to hear from Muslim leaders in government and religion to make statements denouncing the violence in Paris and other places, and their promise to combat Islamic terrorism in any way possible. This includes informing on fellow Muslims and assisting the authorities in insuring the safety of this country. I'd like to hear how they plan on doing it. If they don't, that tells me all I need to know.

They do and did denounce the violence in Paris immediately,but that is the extent of it nothing more.

If we look at Syria who has been in a civil war for 5 years,the refugees in the millions are leaving,what exactly is a refugee?

If you do not wish to fight for what you believe in and your children's future you can leave for safety,is that a definition of a refugee?

There are Syrians fighting and dying for their country,can you imagine how they must feel when they also view the videos as their countrymen exit and leave them hanging.If you do not have your own countryman's back,you really cannot expect to have anybody's else back.

[Richard]

Sorry but nothing in those articles makes me paranoid or believe that the majority of Muslims, or even a large percentage of Muslims, actually want "death to Americans".

A large percentage or majority does not matter,all it takes is one and that one could care less if we are all welcoming with a steak dinner they would still blow you and a thousand others standing next to you up without out a second thought.

[G-DDT]

I'm waiting to hear from Muslim leaders in government and religion to make statements denouncing the violence in Paris and other places, and their promise to combat Islamic terrorism in any way possible. This includes informing on fellow Muslims and assisting the authorities in insuring the safety of this country. I'd like to hear how they plan on doing it. If they don't, that tells me all I need to know.

It happened at St. Annes.http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...tacks/36459496 That's just a small local sampling. Check out post #120 on this thread [[I don't blame you for not getting much sleep midst the recent chaos occurring, Zacha!-but thanks for posting it).

If pressed, I can dig out an impressive stack of Press and Guide articles going back at least 8 years highlighting events where local Islamic leaders spoke out against the actions of other so-called "Islamic" devotees causing havoc in the Mid-East. I doubt I will find the online equivalents available, and scanning and posting these articles on this forum may prove unwieldy and most likely illegible.

The point is, though, there has always been an outspoken voice of Muslims in this country condemning the actions of extremism where it turns up. The problem is that we do indeed have a very unbalanced and unfair media industry in this country that disproportionately puts attention and emphasis on the wrong things [[you may want to catch Democracy Now! http://www.democracynow.org/2015/11/...e_are_grievingor any off chance someone posted videos on youtube).

It isn't happenstance; there is a strategic motive to the such madness. Much like how killing and retaliation are highlighted, but reports of forgiveness [[just by deduction alone, something should tip most of the more discernful members of DY as to knowing something is up with what is not being said-I would hope.) are only mentioned as a murmuring blur. It's also, like how anything that can discredit Christianity is hyped, but the steadfast and constant ministry activities of almost every church that preforms charity on a daily or weekly basis is glazed over [[accept for the obligatory brief tear-jerking human interest piece posted around the Holidays).-and yet, I can name many, many more examples....

[G-DDT]

By the way, I pose a question to those attacking faiths [[since we are all competent persons who uphold the need to cite sources, yes? -agreed?): Have you actually read the main works of any given faith, and I do mean, read them cover to cover with the intention to temper all the various ground covered and to walk into these with a fair and unbiased exegetical approach free of presumptuous conclusion [[the type one might be inclined to puff up, pad, and card stack for). Can you do that with the Bible? Can you do that with the Quran? [[come to think of it, I have one. I need to dust it off and dig into that for quite a bit).

Someone brought up trends. What about the most recent violent trends here in this country with far-right teabaggers who idealize Hitler [[Houser), disgruntled news anchors [[Flanagan) looking to blame folks for their alienation, armed-forces rejects [[like Harper-Mercer) who kill classmates based on their religion, and churches being sprayed [[when they aren't being torched in St. Louis) by kids [[like Dylan Roof) influenced by God knows what because of a combination of either race and religion?

What genuine blind delusions are being perpetuated there to breeze past these without further mention in addressing their overall irreligious nature ?