Breaking: Illitch donating 40 million to build NEW WSU business school on Woodward

[CrashDummy]

Attachment 28591

I like both posts...

If you like both posts, then why not two thumbs up?

[bust]

Can I quote Jeb Bush: "Blah, blah, blah".

As far as DIA vs. pro sports:

What is the total attendance for the Red Wings within a season?

What is the total patronage at DIA for say a calendar year?

The Islanders started playing near my home a few weeks ago. The Barclay's Center has brought a lot of riff raff to the neighborhood, but I've never seen prostitutes on 4th Ave until then. They appear just before the games let out and disappear soon after.

I used to be a big Red Wings fan, and maybe you'll say things are different in Detroit, but in general hockey fans aren't the kind of patrons most businesses need. They're good for loud sports bars, pizza and burger joints, and apparently prostitutes too. Proprietors of those ventures don't typically go to B school.

Meanwhile, you're clearly a paid contractor for the Olympia organization. Don't think some of us here haven't heard of online reputation management companies and don't know what they do. You're all too transparent. The moderators seem to welcome all opinions. But paid social marketing and opinions are not the same.

[bust]

Can I quote Jeb Bush: "Blah, blah, blah".

As far as DIA vs. pro sports:

What is the total attendance for the Red Wings within a season?

What is the total patronage at DIA for say a calendar year?

I'll add to my last comment the following:

My parents go to the DIA several times a year for films, and some special exhibitions too. They often patronize a Detroit restaurant while they're there. [[Never Hockeytown.)

When I come home to visit, the DIA is one of the places we'll most likely go. And it isn't usually the only stop we make in Detroit while we're there.

You may not put much value the museum but others certainly do.

Once I even ran into an old friend from my east coast grad school while I was there.

And once is exactly as often as I went to a Red Wings game since I left for college, a long time ago.

Meanwhile my dad was a baseball player and was offered contracts with two pro teams. He just watched every game of the playoffs and world series from beginning to end. But it's been years since he's seen the Tigers in person, or for that matter, attended any pro sports game.

I'd be devastated if the DIA left the city for the outskirts of town. If the Red Wings left I'd be disappointed, but it wouldn't be a major problem. If I watch them it's almost always on TV. And the kind of development hockey arenas attract isn't the best kind cities most need.

I'd be curious to know how much public money supports the DIA and how much the Red Wings and their new stadium receive.

The DIA is a much more important asset to the city. And not just because it is a whole lot more important to me.

[archfan]

The bigger offense are the arts and crafts houses though. The arts and crafts movement was a response in England to the industrial revolution. It was aligned with socialism, and rejected industrialization and machine-made objects in favor of the traditional trades [[and politically, the trade unions). And then in Detroit we have union busting barons of the auto industry, the crowning glory of capitalism and industrialization, using mechanized construction methods to build mansions in exclusive neighborhoods. Everyone involved, from client to architect, either didn't know or didn't care about what the arts and crafts movement was actually about. There's more to architecture than decorating facades.

Some wings of the arts and crafts movement more realistically recognized that we couldn't avoid a mechanized world. The handcrafted home then is a refuge from the daily grind of factory work. In that sense, the a&c-influenced houses in Detroit [[of all sizes) make a lot of sense.

Others, like Wright [[see 'Art and Craft of the Machine'), saw the possibility of using mechanized construction methods to produce good architecture.

[Gistok]

I'll add to my last comment the following:

My parents go to the DIA several times a year for films, and some special exhibitions too. They often patronize a Detroit restaurant while they're there. [[Never Hockeytown.)

When I come home to visit, the DIA is one of the places we'll most likely go. And it isn't usually the only stop we make in Detroit while we're there.

You may not put much value the museum but others certainly do.

Once I even ran into an old friend from my east coast grad school while I was there.

And once is exactly as often as I went to a Red Wings game since I left for college, a long time ago.

Meanwhile my dad was a baseball player and was offered contracts with two pro teams. He just watched every game of the playoffs and world series from beginning to end. But it's been years since he's seen the Tigers in person, or for that matter, attended any pro sports game.

I'd be devastated if the DIA left the city for the outskirts of town. If the Red Wings left I'd be disappointed, but it wouldn't be a major problem. If I watch them it's almost always on TV. And the kind of development hockey arenas attract isn't the best kind cities most need.

I'd be curious to know how much public money supports the DIA and how much the Red Wings and their new stadium receive.

The DIA is a much more important asset to the city. And not just because it is a whole lot more important to me.

Your whole anecdote is a moot point... for those who live here.... we know that $23 million in a tricounty property tax millage goes to supporting the DIA, and allowing all tri-county residents free admittance to the DIA. Since the DIA had a $180 million museum expansion about 8 years ago... any discussion about them moving to the suburb is pointless.

Also... long time DYes poster Emu_steve doesn't live in metro Detroit right now... so him being an Olympia shill is not based in logic.

And one last thing.... your point that somehow Hockey fans are not the kind of folks who restaurants or other establishments want in downtown.... is patently unfounded. Hockey fans frequent many of the same restaurants as other sports patrons.... with many finer restaurants providing shuttle service to and from the venue.

From the sound of it, many of your Brooklyn based observations are not applicable in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

[emu steve]

Your whole anecdote is a moot point... for those who live here.... we know that $23 million in a tricounty property tax millage goes to supporting the DIA, and allowing all tri-county residents free admittance to the DIA. Since the DIA had a $180 million museum expansion about 8 years ago... any discussion about them moving to the suburb is pointless.

Also... long time DYes poster Emu_steve doesn't live in metro Detroit right now... so him being an Olympia shill is not based in logic.

And one last thing.... your point that somehow Hockey fans are not the kind of folks who restaurants or other establishments want in downtown.... is patently unfounded. Hockey fans frequent many of the same restaurants as other sports patrons.... with many finer restaurants providing shuttle service to and from the venue.

From the sound of it, many of your Brooklyn based observations are not applicable in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

One again, Gistok nails it.

As for me, I used to live in Detroit. I was a Wings season ticket holder one year right after I graduated from WSU [[when they still played at the Olympia on Grand River). The Norris family owned the team.

[as a WSU alum I don't mind commenting on the school and wish it well].

I don't attend hockey games any more. My favorite sports now are mostly college football and basketball, the suffering Lions and suffering Tigers.

I've also learned not to pit arts vs. sports. Like why?

Detroit has the DIA and is a great sports city. Double win.

Let people choose how they wish to spend their free time. After all, it is THEIR free time.

One thing I love about sports: Folks of all ages, from the young to the old and infirm, if they have cable television or DirecTV, etc. they can, for basically the cost of the service, watch hundreds of sporting events each year. Next month I'm going to an Andrea Bocelli concert. For the cost of tickets, I could pay two years of out-of-market MLB coverage from DirecTv to watch the Tigers' games. For many, sports are 'cheap thrills.'

I'm not sure how this thread got to be arts vs. sports? Are we still fighting about the public subsidy for the new arena?

[emu steve]

BTW as the project has been approved by the WSU board and supposedly shovels in the ground next spring, maybe we can talk of other development, repurpose, redevelopments, etc. in the area.

Does the Alhambra Apartments look like a better redevelopment opportunity today? [[I would think so. Can anyone think of a more strategic opportunity? Beautiful building in a 'hot' area.)

Might sound crazy, but could the Hotel Americana be redeveloped into say efficiency apartments some of which might be attractive to WSU school of business students. What a blessing that would be for the Masonic Temple to have that building redeveloped.

How about that vacant block at Woodward and Alfred?

As mentioned, how about re-development or re-purpose those store fronts between Temple and Charlotte?

Time for the "Midtown Momentum" to continue...

[bust]

Your whole anecdote is a moot point... for those who live here.... we know that $23 million in a tricounty property tax millage goes to supporting the DIA, and allowing all tri-county residents free admittance to the DIA. Since the DIA had a $180 million museum expansion about 8 years ago... any discussion about them moving to the suburb is pointless.

Also... long time DYes poster Emu_steve doesn't live in metro Detroit right now... so him being an Olympia shill is not based in logic.

And one last thing.... your point that somehow Hockey fans are not the kind of folks who restaurants or other establishments want in downtown.... is patently unfounded. Hockey fans frequent many of the same restaurants as other sports patrons.... with many finer restaurants providing shuttle service to and from the venue.

From the sound of it, many of your Brooklyn based observations are not applicable in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

Thanks for the reminder about the millage. It helped me find more info.

As you said, the millage will generate $23M. That's per year, for the next 10 years. So $230M.

I learned the DIA gets no other public support, which is unusual.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/ar...-approved.html

I'm curious how Olympia's incentives to keep the Red Wings in Detroit compare. Maybe someone with more knowledge can provide more info, but here's what I found:

The arena was financed by $450M in bonds. Olympia will pay back $200M. Detroit's Downtown Development Authority, run by the Detroit Economic Growth Corp, will pay back the remaining $250M. The DDA is supported by a property tax levied within its district.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...re-are-answers

If Olympia invests or "causes to invest" at least $200M around the arena within 5 years after it opens, the DDA will credit Olympia an additional $62M.

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/ol...nt?oid=2144114

If Olympia receives no other incentives, the public funding comparison looks like this:

DIA: $230M [[from tri-county property taxes)
Olympia: $250M, up to $312M [[from DDA property taxes)

Let me know what I'm missing or if I got anything wrong.

I'm glad both are in the city. But I value them differently. It's interesting to see how public [[or quasi-public) funding values them differently too.

[bust]

Your whole anecdote is a moot point... for those who live here.... we know that $23 million in a tricounty property tax millage goes to supporting the DIA, and allowing all tri-county residents free admittance to the DIA. Since the DIA had a $180 million museum expansion about 8 years ago... any discussion about them moving to the suburb is pointless.

Also... long time DYes poster Emu_steve doesn't live in metro Detroit right now... so him being an Olympia shill is not based in logic.

And one last thing.... your point that somehow Hockey fans are not the kind of folks who restaurants or other establishments want in downtown.... is patently unfounded. Hockey fans frequent many of the same restaurants as other sports patrons.... with many finer restaurants providing shuttle service to and from the venue.

From the sound of it, many of your Brooklyn based observations are not applicable in Downtown and Midtown Detroit.

Meanwhile, my apologies if I was unclear.

Of course the DIA's not leaving. Some of the art almost did, but how could the institution itself? My point in imagining that hypothetical situation was to illustrate my opinion that of the two the DIA is much more important to the city.

And I realize hockey fans visit restaurants. Keeping them in town is good for the economy. My point was the kinds of businesses that sports arenas attract tend to be bars, pizza, and burger joints. That's what's popping up around the Barclays center, and a few prostitutes too. Arenas located where good transit isn't an option will also require lots of parking.

Cities need all these things. But too many, catering to the same crowd, busy only before and after games, doesn't make for a great neighborhood. It's much better than an empty neighborhood, you can argue that. But the best kind of neighborhood would include full-time residents and the much wider diversity of businesses they need. Marketing materials have encouraged us to get excited for that. But that kind of development isn't natural for a sports arena to attract. Let's hope it happens.

Finally, I shouldn't have accused emu_steve of engaging in reputation management for Olympia without proof. And of course I don't have any. Sorry for that. But there's no reason why anyone would need to do that from Detroit. If he's in DC that's no alibi. Many companies provide online reputation management services for American clients out of India. Here's one:

http://www.repindia.com/

Maybe I'm being too suspicious, but it's hard to believe anyone would post here so often and so consistently enthusiastically for everything Ilitches without any ties, financial or otherwise. Social marketing and online reputation management are common services these days. But I do believe in giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm unconvinced either way.

And I see he's here now in person. I'll apologize to him directly next.

[bust]

One again, Gistok nails it.

As for me, I used to live in Detroit. I was a Wings season ticket holder one year right after I graduated from WSU [[when they still played at the Olympia on Grand River). The Norris family owned the team.

[as a WSU alum I don't mind commenting on the school and wish it well].

I don't attend hockey games any more. My favorite sports now are mostly college football and basketball, the suffering Lions and suffering Tigers.

I've also learned not to pit arts vs. sports. Like why?

Detroit has the DIA and is a great sports city. Double win.

Let people choose how they wish to spend their free time. After all, it is THEIR free time.

One thing I love about sports: Folks of all ages, from the young to the old and infirm, if they have cable television or DirecTV, etc. they can, for basically the cost of the service, watch hundreds of sporting events each year. Next month I'm going to an Andrea Bocelli concert. For the cost of tickets, I could pay two years of out-of-market MLB coverage from DirecTv to watch the Tigers' games. For many, sports are 'cheap thrills.'

I'm not sure how this thread got to be arts vs. sports? Are we still fighting about the public subsidy for the new arena?

emu_steve my apologies for accusing that you work for the Ilitches. It sure seems like it, but I'm not sure you do.

As far as pitting arts vs. sports, wasn't that exactly what you did when you pitted the DIA's attendance vs. the Red Wings'? It's what I reacted to, and how we got here.

Anyway, no worries. Whatever the case, you seem like a swell guy. And the characters you meet online are all part of the fun.

Nice to meet everyone here!

[mikeg19]

Your assertion that sports arenas and the accompanying developments [[bars, pizza joints, restaurants, etc) bring in riff raff and hookers is a bit off base. I could make the argument that the Plaza Hotel in NYC or the Townsend in Birmingham brings in just as many hookers looking to score cash from clients as does a bar. I saw peddlers out front of the Partridge Creek Mall over the weekend, which is in an affluent area in Macomb. I've been propositioned by hookers outside/inside of some very nice local establishments as well. So overall, I think it doesn't matter, because wherever money goes, whether it's a strip club, Iridescence, or Joe's bar on 14 mile, seedy characters are everywhere.

I also find your correlation between hockey fans and the lower class way off base as well. Have you ever been to Tigers Opening Day? Baseball fans, who are supposed to be the "Classy" collection of people attending sporting events, pissing themselves and throwing up in the middle of Woodward. There are just as many drunks attending Lions, Wings, Tigers, Pistons games as there are people who go to the DIA and Sunday brunch at the Whitney.

And to say that "hockey fans are the kind of people businesses don't need" is ridiculous. If you have a pulse, money to spend, and you aren't acting like you 4 years old, ANY business will probably take your money. This isn't $5000 dinners at the Polo Club in the Hamptons with trust fund babies. These are retailers and restaurants making money to pay rent and employees.

[emu steve]

emu_steve my apologies for accusing that you work for the Ilitches. It sure seems like it, but I'm not sure you do.

As far as pitting arts vs. sports, wasn't that exactly what you did when you pitted the DIA's attendance vs. the Red Wings'? It's what I reacted to, and how we got here.

Anyway, no worries. Whatever the case, you seem like a swell guy. And the characters you meet online are all part of the fun.

Nice to meet everyone here!

Thanks.

I try to post on various subjects but the new arena [[and related development) seems to 'take most of the oxygen out of the room.' Hence, it might seem I'm posting so much on development around the new arena, Comerica, Cass Park, etc.

I do feel comfortable discussing the Tigers and Lions. I do not follow the NHL. I used to be a big NHL fan, but that was long in the past. I don't follow soccer much [[except World Cup, etc.) but do follow soccer plans for the Detroit area [[that has nothing to do with the Ilitch family).

I feel very comfortable discussing Wayne State and their school of business. I have one of their degrees. I lived my last year in an off campus dump [[razed and now a WSU building) so I have some feel for discussing an urban, essentially commuter school. My first post-WSU job kept me in the area.

I feel very comfortable discussing Belle Isle. I ran there many, many times when I lived in S.E. MI.

I don't have any feel for the east side other than the river front between downtown and say Belle Isle. I would be lost without a map. I couldn't find CAY airport, maybe even with a map... I rarely post on east side matters, including neighborhoods.

[bust]

Your assertion that sports arenas and the accompanying developments [[bars, pizza joints, restaurants, etc) bring in riff raff and hookers is a bit off base. I could make the argument that the Plaza Hotel in NYC or the Townsend in Birmingham brings in just as many hookers looking to score cash from clients as does a bar. I saw peddlers out front of the Partridge Creek Mall over the weekend, which is in an affluent area in Macomb. I've been propositioned by hookers outside/inside of some very nice local establishments as well. So overall, I think it doesn't matter, because wherever money goes, whether it's a strip club, Iridescence, or Joe's bar on 14 mile, seedy characters are everywhere.

I also find your correlation between hockey fans and the lower class way off base as well. Have you ever been to Tigers Opening Day? Baseball fans, who are supposed to be the "Classy" collection of people attending sporting events, pissing themselves and throwing up in the middle of Woodward. There are just as many drunks attending Lions, Wings, Tigers, Pistons games as there are people who go to the DIA and Sunday brunch at the Whitney.

And to say that "hockey fans are the kind of people businesses don't need" is ridiculous. If you have a pulse, money to spend, and you aren't acting like you 4 years old, ANY business will probably take your money. This isn't $5000 dinners at the Polo Club in the Hamptons with trust fund babies. These are retailers and restaurants making money to pay rent and employees.

Mike, I seem to be failing at the internet lately. I'll try to clarify my opinion. I hope I don't fail again.

I didn't make this a class issue. Hockey's my favorite sport to watch, and I've been to more games than I can remember. But I do see how I caused that confusion when I said hockey fans are not good for most businesses, that they are good for loud sports bars, pizza and burger joints, even prostitutes. I said that based on first hand experience seeing how the Barclays Center has changed my neighborhood, but those were a poor choice of words. I chose my words better when I said the kind of development hockey arenas attract isn't the best kind cities most need. Allow me to explain.

This started about hockey because I was responding to a challenge to compare annual attendance between the Red Wings and the DIA. But I believe arenas have almost the same effect on their surrounding neighborhood, no matter the sport. They result in short periods when massive influxes of people come and leave at once, for entertainment, and little activity other times. For those massive influxes of people, the game is the primary activity, possibly complemented by a visit a restaurant or a bar. But for neighboring businesses, those massive influxes of people represent large numbers of potential customers, and it makes sense to cater their operations for them. Lots of beer, pizza, and burgers are sold.

I like beer, pizza, and burgers as much as anyone. But it's a problem for the neighborhood if its businesses singularly focus on an arena crowd. Those businesses are usually loud and crowded during short periods before and after games, and empty or even closed other times. And their offerings are limited. Thriving neighborhoods need local residents. And local residents need everyday businesses like hardware stores, toy shops, salons, dentists offices, and quiet restaurants as well. At least in my neighborhood, and largely as the result of the Barclays Center, I've seen too many of those kinds of local businesses close. Time will tell what kind of neighborhood will surround the new Red Wings arena. Whatever it is it will be better than what exists there now.

One other point of clarification: I didn't specify, but by riff raff I meant the scalpers, hustlers, drunk shouters, sidewalk urinators, and more recently the hookers that have been showing up before and/or after Barclays Center events. I'm not talking about the average person who attends. Though of course locals tend to respect the neighborhood more than outsiders.

I have no doubt the hockey arena will bring in bigger crowds than the DIA. My overall point is the DIA is nonetheless an incredibly important asset to the city, it also brings important economic activity, and it does so without the problems that come with sporting events and their crowds. It shouldn't be slighted. My apologies, again, for the confusion caused by my poor choice of words.

Now I'm gonna go read the internet manual. Let me know if you have any tips.

[mikeg19]

No harm no foul bust. I do agree with you that the DIA is a fantastic cultural institution that's priceless [[unless you're a bankruptcy creditor). And you are correct, as I hardly see anyone tailgating to go see the Van Gogh, that there are different crowds attending these institutions.