Detroit out-migration, in-migration, and the "other"

[Gannon]

Great reminder of the problems. I don't see how this results in inability to keep your neighborhood clean. Do you really think that economic challenges caused moral decay? I would think it would have resulted in more gardens to grow food -- yet the urban garden movement seems to have only 'sprouted' after 'in-migration'. Maybe immigration is a good thing -- even if not a plank of Black Nationalism.

The urban gardening movement is ancient in this town, seemingly surging and waning in popularity as overall economic times demanded.

The latest surge, which I'd say began in the mid-to-late 2000s, was almost certainly bolstered by those who have not migrated, ever. Every collective and community garden which I'm aware of was begun by Detroiters. One of my favorites was actually born in Philadelphia, but considers herself a naturalized Detroiter...she's been around the city longer than most of the hipsters have been alive.


What 'sprouted' afterward are the applications for the products of urban agriculture...I'd bet the restaurants and food trucks may have a majority in-migrant [[heh) ownership. I grudgingly admit that my hero of Eastern Market, Dan Carmody, was imported...but he very quickly became engrained in the city's core culture.

Depending upon when you date this latest in-migration, I think he will sneak in as a prior, anyways. I think he arrived in 2008, or early '09.


Cheers!

[Wesley Mouch]

The urban gardening movement is ancient in this town, seemingly surging and waning in popularity as overall economic times demanded.

The latest surge, which I'd say began in the mid-to-late 2000s, was almost certainly bolstered by those who have not migrated, ever. Every collective and community garden which I'm aware of was begun by Detroiters. One of my favorites was actually born in Philadelphia, but considers herself a naturalized Detroiter...she's been around the city longer than most of the hipsters have been alive.


What 'sprouted' afterward are the applications for the products of urban agriculture...I'd bet the restaurants and food trucks may have a majority in-migrant [[heh) ownership. I grudgingly admit that my hero of Eastern Market, Dan Carmody, was imported...but he very quickly became engrained in the city's core culture.

Depending upon when you date this latest in-migration, I think he will sneak in as a prior, anyways. I think he arrived in 2008, or early '09.


Cheers!

I have lived in various parts of Detroit proper most of my life. I never saw an 'urban farm' until perhaps 2000. Hardly ancient, but I suppose that depends on your age.

My point wasn't so much about urban farming, as about how those 'left behind' to 'struggle' with the problems of the city seemingly prefer bitching about what was done to them rather than what they can do themselves.

[Gannon]

I have lived in various parts of Detroit proper most of my life. I never saw an 'urban farm' until perhaps 2000. Hardly ancient, but I suppose that depends on your age.

My point wasn't so much about urban farming, as about how those 'left behind' to 'struggle' with the problems of the city seemingly prefer bitching about what was done to them rather than what they can do themselves.

Yeah, we've been blessed to live in [[relatively) good economic times...but certainly you've heard of the Pingree Potato Patches, or the WWII Victory Gardens?!


It is all in what we choose to hear...we can hear complaining, or those who rise above their circumstances. While encouraging those who were rising, I was astounded to hear the main resistance to Urban Ag was from those too indignant of the premise to dig in dirt. Seems they thought it a return to some form of slavery.

Numbed the mind, that one did. That'd be like me boycotting potatoes, because half my ancestry had them forced upon 'em by bad Brits.


But I think you're right on the timing...although those Mad Monks at the Capuchin Center and the Greening of Detroit folks were doin' their thing before then. [[just looked to confirm, and learned that Greening's founder was an import, too, from 1989...although everyone I've met from there has been from the Metro area) [[I guess, one could argue that all of the Monks have been imported as well...)


So yeah, the concept is nearly eternal in this town, but the latest application might have been bolstered by a few imports...

[archfan]

Great reminder of the problems. I don't see how this results in inability to keep your neighborhood clean. ...

A city built for 1.85 million now has just 700,000 people. 1.85M/700K is roughly 2.64. So, I would have to keep my yard nice, another yard, and half of a third to keep my neighborhood clean. No problem.

[canuck]

A city built for 1.85 million now has just 700,000 people. 1.85M/700K is roughly 2.64. So, I would have to keep my yard nice, another yard, and half of a third to keep my neighborhood clean. No problem.

In a nutshell.

[Wesley Mouch]

A city built for 1.85 million now has just 700,000 people. 1.85M/700K is roughly 2.64. So, I would have to keep my yard nice, another yard, and half of a third to keep my neighborhood clean. No problem.

That's right. No problem.

The low expectations of some are an insult to our City.

You don't think DPS students could clean neighborhood yards to support their community? I do. And I think they could even stand up to AFSCME and clean up school grounds too.

Strong communities don't look for money from the 99%. They get stuff done.

[erikd]

Great reminder of the problems. I don't see how this results in inability to keep your neighborhood clean. Do you really think that economic challenges caused moral decay? I would think it would have resulted in more gardens to grow food -- yet the urban garden movement seems to have only 'sprouted' after 'in-migration'. Maybe immigration is a good thing -- even if not a plank of Black Nationalism.

I used to say these exact same things before I moved into the city and realized how drastically different things really are for extremely poor people in disadvantaged neighborhoods. The fact is that the lack of resources and economic opportunity absolutely inhibits the ability to "keep the neighborhood clean."

It is realatively easy for a middle-class, or working-class, person to expend a little extra time and money to repair a rotted step on the front porch, repaint some peeling trim, cut the grass in the empty lot across the street, buy a couple sheets of plywood to board up the entrance to a vacant building, or pick up a load of basic gardening supplies to start and maintain a garden on the lot down the street.

It is hard for the average American to comprehend the fact that there are many impoverished inner city areas where nobody on the block has access to a lawnmower for cutting grass, a vehicle to drive to the store to pick up supplies, or even a nearby hardware store to go to. Starting a community garden seems easy and simple enough when you have easy access to garden tools, and a vehicle to pick up the fertilizer, soil, and all of the other materials required, but it's actually quite a challengening task when you don't have any of those resources at your disposal.

Before we vilify and pass judgement on entire neighborhoods and communities, we should at least try to understand their situation, and consider how much more difficult things are if you don't have access to many of the basic tools and assets that most of us take for granted.

[Pam]

Re: keeping neighborhoods clean- illegal dumping by outsiders is still a problem in Detroit.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in..._sea_of_t.html

[Wesley Mouch]

I used to say these exact same things before I moved into the city and realized how drastically different things really are for extremely poor people in disadvantaged neighborhoods. The fact is that the lack of resources and economic opportunity absolutely inhibits the ability to "keep the neighborhood clean."

It is realatively easy for a middle-class, or working-class, person to expend a little extra time and money to repair a rotted step on the front porch, repaint some peeling trim, cut the grass in the empty lot across the street, buy a couple sheets of plywood to board up the entrance to a vacant building, or pick up a load of basic gardening supplies to start and maintain a garden on the lot down the street.

It is hard for the average American to comprehend the fact that there are many impoverished inner city areas where nobody on the block has access to a lawnmower for cutting grass, a vehicle to drive to the store to pick up supplies, or even a nearby hardware store to go to. Starting a community garden seems easy and simple enough when you have easy access to garden tools, and a vehicle to pick up the fertilizer, soil, and all of the other materials required, but it's actually quite a challengening task when you don't have any of those resources at your disposal.

Before we vilify and pass judgement on entire neighborhoods and communities, we should at least try to understand their situation, and consider how much more difficult things are if you don't have access to many of the basic tools and assets that most of us take for granted.

I've lived inside the city limits most of my life. In good neighborhoods -- but with close proximity to very poor neighborhoods. Our course its much more difficult when you have less resources. But it is not impossible.

Not every poor neighborhood fails. And the 60 years since the Great Society and massive investment into urban areas -- great investment into anti-poverty programs -- and I think you also have to start wondering whether lack of money is the real problem.

You look at the problems. And they exist. No money for a lawnmower? Well go to your neighborhood church and borrow one. If that mega-church doesn't loan them out to you -- then the problem isn't money. Could urban neighborhoods using money? Or course. But is it what holds them back? No. There's something else going on, and as a broader society that cares about our citizens, we haven't found the solution. So keep trying.

[Dumpling]

I am a middle class Yankee-style English Roman Catholic - I might possibly have thrived
in Boston, but I was born in Detroit - that lives in Warrendale side by side with people that
don't fit that exact description.
Here is this week's street cleanup story. Today I picked up my sweater from the cleaners.
I like White Cloud which is run by the little Korean lady down on West Jefferson in River
Rouge, but this is a side note, except that the 25 mile per hour speed limit signs are still
enforced down there in River Rouge. The bridge is slowly being disassembled.
The sweater had to go to the cleaners because my whole outfit didn't smell good at all
after dumping out a Courville container and repackaging the garbage into large size trash
bags. My neighbors are frugal. They either recycle shopping bags as garbage bags or toss their trash directly into the Courville container. This repackaging had to happen because they had set their two Courville containers in the street side by side - by itself not a problem - but they piled a little bit of roofing job debris and a broken plastic chair on top of each Courville container. The Advanced Disposal driver left the two full containers because of the lack of bulk trash separation - I have seen this happen before, it was not a one-off. So I removed
the bulk trash and set it all over by the curb at the Kopanakis lot, very slightly risking a
$1000 blight ticket if another neighbor complained about the mess plus took pictures of
me leaving the stuff there and where it will look unsightly for up to two weeks. It would have been picked up by Advanced Disposal at once if it was in the 'burbs, I think, please correct me if not.
One Courville container went across the street to be picked up whole, the other was
repackaged as noted and distributed into other neighbors' Courville containers. End
cleanup job. That's the way it is.

[Gpwrangler]

Good gosh, I hope so!
...

Mine is pristine, came from a Detroit estate sale way back when; no one bothered to look in the garage. If that car could talk...

[Bham1982]

I used to say these exact same things before I moved into the city and realized how drastically different things really are for extremely poor people in disadvantaged neighborhoods. The fact is that the lack of resources and economic opportunity absolutely inhibits the ability to "keep the neighborhood clean."

It is realatively easy for a middle-class, or working-class, person to expend a little extra time and money to repair a rotted step on the front porch, repaint some peeling trim, cut the grass in the empty lot across the street, buy a couple sheets of plywood to board up the entrance to a vacant building, or pick up a load of basic gardening supplies to start and maintain a garden on the lot down the street.

It is hard for the average American to comprehend the fact that there are many impoverished inner city areas where nobody on the block has access to a lawnmower for cutting grass, a vehicle to drive to the store to pick up supplies, or even a nearby hardware store to go to. Starting a community garden seems easy and simple enough when you have easy access to garden tools, and a vehicle to pick up the fertilizer, soil, and all of the other materials required, but it's actually quite a challengening task when you don't have any of those resources at your disposal.

Before we vilify and pass judgement on entire neighborhoods and communities, we should at least try to understand their situation, and consider how much more difficult things are if you don't have access to many of the basic tools and assets that most of us take for granted.

Detroit, by global standards, is wealthy. Median household income is higher than that of almost all of Eastern Europe. There are poorer towns in Michigan, without the same maintenance issues. Many of the poorest parts of Detroit [[like SW Detroit) are reasonably well kept. There is no wealth-based excuse for having neighborhoods look like crap.

And if someone really has no money to afford a lawn mower [[a brand new push mower can be bought for less than $100), then obviously they cannot afford living in a single family house with a yard in the first place.

[Richard]

Detroit, by global standards, is wealthy. Median household income is higher than that of almost all of Eastern Europe. There are poorer towns in Michigan, without the same maintenance issues. Many of the poorest parts of Detroit [[like SW Detroit) are reasonably well kept. There is no wealth-based excuse for having neighborhoods look like crap.

And if someone really has no money to afford a lawn mower [[a brand new push mower can be bought for less than $100), then obviously they cannot afford living in a single family house with a yard in the first place.

If you do not have $20 ....... $20 is a lot of money.

If one is living in a house that was passed down through the generations is it more economically feasible for them to stay in that house or to provide the funds to place them into a rental property,total up the costs for a couple of generations.

Is it better for them to stay in that generational house as a permanent neighbor verses a constant turnover of tenants.

If repair funds and education are spent to help them in the maintenance of that property,is that not a better return as in a stronger established neighborhood,long term as a city?

There are funds available to help those and people volunteer all of the time to help,I think there is more of a disconnect of what is available and and what is accepted,or getting the word out.

That is just a cruel outlook to say if you cannot afford a lawnmower you do not deserve a roof over your head or the little pride of ownership that it may bring.It is hard to pass judgement on somebody because of a situation they may be in through no fault of there own,and you cannot collectively judge everybody because of a few.

[Bham1982]

If you do not have $20 ....... $20 is a lot of money.

If you don't have $20 you shouldn't be living in a house. Sell the house and move in with family or friends; at that level you are too poor to even rent a room in a flophouse. I don't know how it would be possible to be so poor, as even the homeless are generally getting SSI and welfare benefits, so someone not working should be getting some minimal monthly income.

And that isn't the norm in Detroit. Again, Detroit isn't poor by global standards. Places like Hungary and Slovakia and the like are much poorer but I don't think the average person lacks $20 or there's some epidemic of uncut lawns.

That is just a cruel outlook to say if you cannot afford a lawnmower you do not deserve a roof over your head or the little pride of ownership that it may bring.

It isn't cruel at all. If you truly cannot afford a $40 item that is absolutely essential to single family homeownership, then you shouldn't be a homeowner in a single family home. What happens if the roof needs to be replaced?

The majority of the developed world rents instead of owns, and relatively few in the world own single family homes with yards. Homeownership isn't a right, and single family homeownership, in the global sense, is reserved for the prosperous few.

And again, your scenario isn't the norm. Detroit isn't poor. People don't lack money, for the most part. Those that do lack money shouldn't choose an expensive lifestyle like homeownership, which generally requires thousands in annual maintenance.

[Richard]

And that isn't the norm in Detroit. Again, Detroit isn't poor by global standards. Places like Hungary and Slovakia and the like are much poorer but I don't think the average person lacks $20 or there's some epidemic of uncut lawns.


It isn't cruel at all. If you truly cannot afford a $40 item that is absolutely essential to single family homeownership, then you shouldn't be a homeowner in a single family home. What happens if the roof needs to be replaced?

The majority of the developed world rents instead of owns, and relatively few in the world own single family homes with yards. Homeownership isn't a right, and single family homeownership, in the global sense, is reserved for the prosperous few.

And again, your scenario isn't the norm. Detroit isn't poor. People don't lack money, for the most part. Those that do lack money shouldn't choose an expensive lifestyle like homeownership, which generally requires thousands in annual maintenance.

We are not discussing the rest of the world,in this country 63% are home owners and 30% are homeowners with no mortgage.

When we are talking about Detroit,I would believe we are talking about the depressed neighborhoods,for sake of argument forget about Corktown,Midtown etc they are handling things on their own for the most part.

The other neighborhoods have a high percentage of home owners that are there because of the residence being passed down.In that case what would you prefer,helping with a $40 lawnmower or coming up with $9600 a year to place them into a apartment for many years to come.

And again, your scenario isn't the norm. Detroit isn't poor. People don't lack money, for the most part. Those that do lack money shouldn't choose an expensive lifestyle like homeownership, which generally requires thousands in annual maintenance.

That part is confusing to me .... Detroit is not poor and people do not lack money .. those that do lack money.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...That part is confusing to me .... Detroit is not poor and people do not lack money .. those that do lack money.

Not confusing. One is a generalization. The second is a recognition that not everone fits the generalization.

I agree. Detroit and Detroiters aren't particularly poor. Of course they are poor in comparison to the population of the metro or the US. But by world standards, they're doing OK. But there are certainly individuals and families who are truly in need. And they should not be forgotten. But the problems of Detroit mostly aren't financial. They are social. The social has caused the financial, in my opinion. The left believes that the financial has caused the social. We disagree. And I believe history can tell us who is right.

[erikd]

If you don't have $20 you shouldn't be living in a house. Sell the house and move in with family or friends; at that level you are too poor to even rent a room in a flophouse. I don't know how it would be possible to be so poor, as even the homeless are generally getting SSI and welfare benefits, so someone not working should be getting some minimal monthly income.

And that isn't the norm in Detroit. Again, Detroit isn't poor by global standards. Places like Hungary and Slovakia and the like are much poorer but I don't think the average person lacks $20 or there's some epidemic of uncut lawns.


It isn't cruel at all. If you truly cannot afford a $40 item that is absolutely essential to single family homeownership, then you shouldn't be a homeowner in a single family home. What happens if the roof needs to be replaced?

The majority of the developed world rents instead of owns, and relatively few in the world own single family homes with yards. Homeownership isn't a right, and single family homeownership, in the global sense, is reserved for the prosperous few.

And again, your scenario isn't the norm. Detroit isn't poor. People don't lack money, for the most part. Those that do lack money shouldn't choose an expensive lifestyle like homeownership, which generally requires thousands in annual maintenance.

I tend to agree with your assertion that people who can not afford the expense of home ownership shouldn't choose to buy a home that they can not afford to maintain, but that simply isn't the case in many, or perhaps even most, of the situations in the most distressed neighborhoods in Detroit.

It is very common for homes in these areas to be owned by people who have lived there for decades, or be owned by people who have inherited the old family home. It's easy to say that they should just sell the house if they can't afford the maintenance, but that option simply doesn't exist in these situations.

What is an elderly person who can no longer maintain their home supposed to do when the property values have deteriorated so much that their house is worth virtually nothing? In a normal situation, the elderly person would sell the old family home, and use the proceeds to pay for an apartment, condo, or senior residence that did not require maintenance. Unfortunately, the situation in distressed Detroit neighborhoods is not normal, so this option is off the table.

What would you do if you were an elderly person living in your home of 30, 40, or 50 years, that you could no longer maintain, but also couldn't sell, because the declining neighborhood had made your house nearly worthless? What would you do if you inherited a house like this from a relative?

[Bham1982]

What would you do if you were an elderly person living in your home of 30, 40, or 50 years, that you could no longer maintain, but also couldn't sell, because the declining neighborhood had made your house nearly worthless? What would you do if you inherited a house like this from a relative?

I agree that there are some households in Detroit that are in a very difficult situation. But in the scenario you describe, the mortgage should have been paid off a long time ago, and the retired person should be getting some income [[at a minimum some SS and SSI).

Annual home-related expenses shouldn't be outrageous for a paid-off bungalow. Property taxes will be low. It doesn't cost that much to maintain, and utility costs are minimal in that size house.

But you're right; if the roof needs to be replaced, or the boiler goes, or even the windows need to be replaced, it's a tough situation, and the homeowner may have to sell. From a public policy perspective the city can't be paying for home repairs for everyone on a limited income [[though I have no problem with some govt. role in assisting such vulnerable households). And this is why family and friends are so important in life; that elderly person needs assistance.

[bust]

It's disappointing the discussion has been so limited in perspective. Some Detroiters are suspicious of suburbanites, but opinions here reveal the opposite is equally true.

Moreover fear of the "other" in the Detroit area is obviously not limited to a city / suburb divide. Witness the islamophobia expressed on the "Hamtramck City Council Now Majority Muslim" thread:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...ajority-Muslim

Detroit, and the Detroit area, needs less out-migration and more in-migration. In particular, to compete in the future economy [[and indeed today's and yesterday's) Detroit must retain and attract skilled workers, trained talent, entrepreneurs.

Yet when I consider the kids with me in suburban Detroit schools, regretfully few of the best students remained in Michigan. I didn't pull out my old yearbook, but when I think of the kids in the advanced classes, I can think of only one who has.

It would be nice to have more than just anecdotal data to support it, but few would disagree: the trend for decades has been that when given the opportunity, many of the most ambitious young adults from the Detroit area choose to leave. And most people elsewhere when considering a choice of destinations don't choose Detroit.

From my experience, the economy is usually only one part of the decision. Most of us are also partially motivated by a desire to live in a community that is more open minded and diverse.

The schools I attended had only a small percentage of kids who weren't white. Most were close friends. Not one resides in Michigan today.

I reunited with one recently. He said he enjoyed his childhood, but feels much more comfortable where he lives now among more ethnic minorities. He said he feels "relieved" people are more more accepting of differences and more "open minded" in general. He's happy his kids don't feel strange because of their appearance. And he's happy for their broader perspective overall.

That was yet another anecdote. And anecdotes aren't scientific.

But it's factual each of us has a perspective that is the accumulated result of our experiences. No two of us share the same experiences, nor therefore the same perspective. I'm sharing mine. And whether it's my bias it's my opinion the Detroit area is less open minded about outsiders than I would like.

Such a qualitative opinion is difficult to prove. But there are some quantifiable measures by which we can prove experiences in the Detroit area are more limited than in some other major cities. Here are some:

1) Few are moving in, bringing their fresh perspectives.
2) Many of the brightest are leaving, taking with them theirs.
3) Extreme segregation [[See: http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...roit/71517466/)
4) Detroit's car culture transports people from bubble to bubble in a bubble with few opportunities for random social interaction along the way.

I don't have data to support 1 and 2, but those seem uncontroversial. I'd find it if I had more time. 3 has been proven repeatedly. Regarding 4, I feel sure no one who has ever lived in a more walkable city, with better transit, would disagree.

I hope I don't come across like one of those New Yorkers my friends who attended Michigan would complain would say how New York is better. That's annoying. And expressing these opinions I know some of you will say I do. I've failed at the internet before.

But I love Detroit. I grew up less than a half mile from Detroit. My dad is from Detroit. My Grandma is from Detroit. Detroit helped make me who I am. I know there is no shortage of great people there. I think I understand some of the city's problems. I think I appreciate many of its advantages too.

I'm incredibly excited to see how Detroit has turned a corner, and is improving. I want the best for the city and the people who live there. And I'm drawn to be a part of it, and to contribute to its future. For my particular career it would require some flexibility, but with some hard work and creativity I recognize there's good opportunity there.

However what deters me more than anything is the close-minded sensibility I remember and continue to encounter when I visit. Of course not everyone is afflicted, and it comes in shades, some harsh, some subtle. But it's discouraging to be reminded of it in some of the comments here. I'm careful to protect my wife and family, and want to spare them that psychological harm.

I know what some of you are thinking, and maybe a few of you will say: if you don't like it, don't come — we don't need you here. I've heard that many times before. But I do like it, in fact I love it, if not everything, and I haven't given up just yet.

We're soon visiting again for a long weekend. One of a few trips we make each year. We're looking forward to some of Detroit's charms while we're there.

[DetroitBoy]

It's disappointing the discussion has been so limited in perspective. Some Detroiters are suspicious of suburbanites, but opinions here reveal the opposite is equally true.

Moreover fear of the "other" in the Detroit area is obviously not limited to a city / suburb divide. Witness the islamophobia expressed on the "Hamtramck City Council Now Majority Muslim" thread:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...ajority-Muslim

Detroit, and the Detroit area, needs less out-migration and more in-migration. In particular, to compete in the future economy [[and indeed today's and yesterday's) Detroit must retain and attract skilled workers, trained talent, entrepreneurs.

Yet when I consider the kids with me in suburban Detroit schools, regretfully few of the best students remained in Michigan. I didn't pull out my old yearbook, but when I think of the kids in the advanced classes, I can think of only one who has.

It would be nice to have more than just anecdotal data to support it, but few would disagree: the trend for decades has been that when given the opportunity, many of the most ambitious young adults from the Detroit area choose to leave. And most people elsewhere when considering a choice of destinations don't choose Detroit.

From my experience, the economy is usually only one part of the decision. Most of us are also partially motivated by a desire to live in a community that is more open minded and diverse.

The schools I attended had only a small percentage of kids who weren't white. Most were close friends. Not one resides in Michigan today.

I reunited with one recently. He said he enjoyed his childhood, but feels much more comfortable where he lives now among more ethnic minorities. He said he feels "relieved" people are more more accepting of differences and more "open minded" in general. He's happy his kids don't feel strange because of their appearance. And he's happy for their broader perspective overall.

That was yet another anecdote. And anecdotes aren't scientific.

But it's factual each of us has a perspective that is the accumulated result of our experiences. No two of us share the same experiences, nor therefore the same perspective. I'm sharing mine. And whether it's my bias it's my opinion the Detroit area is less open minded about outsiders than I would like.

Such a qualitative opinion is difficult to prove. But there are some quantifiable measures by which we can prove experiences in the Detroit area are more limited than in some other major cities. Here are some:

1) Few are moving in, bringing their fresh perspectives.
2) Many of the brightest are leaving, taking with them theirs.
3) Extreme segregation [[See: http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...roit/71517466/)
4) Detroit's car culture transports people from bubble to bubble in a bubble with few opportunities for random social interaction along the way.

I don't have data to support 1 and 2, but those seem uncontroversial. I'd find it if I had more time. 3 has been proven repeatedly. Regarding 4, I feel sure no one who has ever lived in a more walkable city, with better transit, would disagree.

I hope I don't come across like one of those New Yorkers my friends who attended Michigan would complain would say how New York is better. That's annoying. And expressing these opinions I know some of you will say I do. I've failed at the internet before.

But I love Detroit. I grew up less than a half mile from Detroit. My dad is from Detroit. My Grandma is from Detroit. Detroit helped make me who I am. I know there is no shortage of great people there. I think I understand some of the city's problems. I think I appreciate many of its advantages too.

I'm incredibly excited to see how Detroit has turned a corner, and is improving. I want the best for the city and the people who live there. And I'm drawn to be a part of it, and to contribute to its future. For my particular career it would require some flexibility, but with some hard work and creativity I recognize there's good opportunity there.

However what deters me more than anything is the close-minded sensibility I remember and continue to encounter when I visit. Of course not everyone is afflicted, and it comes in shades, some harsh, some subtle. But it's discouraging to be reminded of it in some of the comments here. I'm careful to protect my wife and family, and want to spare them that psychological harm.

I know what some of you are thinking, and maybe a few of you will say: if you don't like it, don't come — we don't need you here. I've heard that many times before. But I do like it, in fact I love it, if not everything, and I haven't given up just yet.

We're soon visiting again for a long weekend. One of a few trips we make each year. We're looking forward to some of Detroit's charms while we're there.

You're comments capture the essence of the area fairly accurately. If you have gained this perspective after living elsewhere, why would anyone else who is not from here want to come to a place this 'close-minded'?

You're a native and are concerned about exposing your children to it let alone returning here to live. If you are drawn to this yet have these feelings, it would appear that is somewhat pathological which would be in line with being a product of the area.

[maverick1]

It's disappointing the discussion has been so limited in perspective. Some Detroiters are suspicious of suburbanites, but opinions here reveal the opposite is equally true.

Moreover fear of the "other" in the Detroit area is obviously not limited to a city / suburb divide. Witness the islamophobia expressed on the "Hamtramck City Council Now Majority Muslim" thread:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...ajority-Muslim

Detroit, and the Detroit area, needs less out-migration and more in-migration. In particular, to compete in the future economy [[and indeed today's and yesterday's) Detroit must retain and attract skilled workers, trained talent, entrepreneurs.

Yet when I consider the kids with me in suburban Detroit schools, regretfully few of the best students remained in Michigan. I didn't pull out my old yearbook, but when I think of the kids in the advanced classes, I can think of only one who has.

It would be nice to have more than just anecdotal data to support it, but few would disagree: the trend for decades has been that when given the opportunity, many of the most ambitious young adults from the Detroit area choose to leave. And most people elsewhere when considering a choice of destinations don't choose Detroit.

From my experience, the economy is usually only one part of the decision. Most of us are also partially motivated by a desire to live in a community that is more open minded and diverse.

The schools I attended had only a small percentage of kids who weren't white. Most were close friends. Not one resides in Michigan today.

I reunited with one recently. He said he enjoyed his childhood, but feels much more comfortable where he lives now among more ethnic minorities. He said he feels "relieved" people are more more accepting of differences and more "open minded" in general. He's happy his kids don't feel strange because of their appearance. And he's happy for their broader perspective overall.

That was yet another anecdote. And anecdotes aren't scientific.

But it's factual each of us has a perspective that is the accumulated result of our experiences. No two of us share the same experiences, nor therefore the same perspective. I'm sharing mine. And whether it's my bias it's my opinion the Detroit area is less open minded about outsiders than I would like.

Such a qualitative opinion is difficult to prove. But there are some quantifiable measures by which we can prove experiences in the Detroit area are more limited than in some other major cities. Here are some:

1) Few are moving in, bringing their fresh perspectives.
2) Many of the brightest are leaving, taking with them theirs.
3) Extreme segregation [[See: http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...roit/71517466/)
4) Detroit's car culture transports people from bubble to bubble in a bubble with few opportunities for random social interaction along the way.

I don't have data to support 1 and 2, but those seem uncontroversial. I'd find it if I had more time. 3 has been proven repeatedly. Regarding 4, I feel sure no one who has ever lived in a more walkable city, with better transit, would disagree.

I hope I don't come across like one of those New Yorkers my friends who attended Michigan would complain would say how New York is better. That's annoying. And expressing these opinions I know some of you will say I do. I've failed at the internet before.

But I love Detroit. I grew up less than a half mile from Detroit. My dad is from Detroit. My Grandma is from Detroit. Detroit helped make me who I am. I know there is no shortage of great people there. I think I understand some of the city's problems. I think I appreciate many of its advantages too.

I'm incredibly excited to see how Detroit has turned a corner, and is improving. I want the best for the city and the people who live there. And I'm drawn to be a part of it, and to contribute to its future. For my particular career it would require some flexibility, but with some hard work and creativity I recognize there's good opportunity there.

However what deters me more than anything is the close-minded sensibility I remember and continue to encounter when I visit. Of course not everyone is afflicted, and it comes in shades, some harsh, some subtle. But it's discouraging to be reminded of it in some of the comments here. I'm careful to protect my wife and family, and want to spare them that psychological harm.

I know what some of you are thinking, and maybe a few of you will say: if you don't like it, don't come — we don't need you here. I've heard that many times before. But I do like it, in fact I love it, if not everything, and I haven't given up just yet.

We're soon visiting again for a long weekend. One of a few trips we make each year. We're looking forward to some of Detroit's charms while we're there.

I overall agree with what you're saying. Although I think I can safely say the majority of commenters in the "Hamtramck City Council Now Majority Muslim" aren't Detroit proper residents. What gets missed in this topic is that Metro Detroit's development has been balls to the wall suburban for the last 50 years. Keep in mind what suburbia is and what it represents. The core of Metro Detroit has been irrelevant, a non factor, unimportant to the average Metro Detroit resident. This is all they know and all they want to know. Detroit proper is another story. I think Detroit proper is more open to this change than the suburbs. Looking for the suburbs to have this fresh perspective is asking the suburbs to challenge it's DNA.

[Richard]

I overall agree with what you're saying. Although I think I can safely say the majority of commenters in the "Hamtramck City Council Now Majority Muslim" aren't Detroit proper residents.

You see what you did there,you would prefer only Detroit proper residents to be discussing Detroit issues without the understanding of how Detroit issues do in fact effect the rest of the country in the bigger picture.It does seem to be a common bond for some.

That is how I am reading it,anyways.

It is no disrespect intended towards your comment,but it does kinda represent the jist of the original intent of the thread.

[bust]

Sad to report driving out to Blake's Orchard we passed three homes in Armada [[one was just outside of town) whose owners were compelled to hang a confederate flag out front.

Racism lives on in Michigan.

If you don't think the confederate flag is an emblem of racism I'll reluctantly explain.

So sick of that shit.

[Wesley Mouch]

...If you don't think the confederate flag is an emblem of racism I'll reluctantly explain. ...

OK, would you please reluctantly explain? I do understand that racists use the flag. But it isn't clear to me that its only a racist symbol. I would think it has other symbolism that might be benign. So please do.

[313WX]

OK, would you please reluctantly explain? I do understand that racists use the flag. But it isn't clear to me that its only a racist symbol. I would think it has other symbolism that might be benign. So please do.

The confederate flag came into existence specifically to represent radicals whose sole goal was to oppress an entire race of people who they felt was lesser than them.

Only those who are either clueless about the aforementioned fact or want to trivialize the oppression faced by those within said race from these radicals and instead give these radicals the benefit of the doubt they don't deserve would feel otherwise.