Christopher Columbus Statue Defaced

[dtowncitylover]

No, he didn't do those things. He wasn't exterminating people or enslaving people or conquering lands. He was an explorer.



There is nothing to "forgive" and Columbus has nothing specifically to do with the formation of the U.S. There was mostly empty land only occupied by a few scattered tribes, and those tribes were horribly mistreated, but that has zero to do with Columbus and everything to do with weak societies being cast aside by stronger ones throughout human history. The Natives were not "good" in any sense relative to others; they killed and abused and were incredibly ignorant just like everyone else back then. They were weak however and that's why their tribal societies crumbled.



Columbus Day is not just celebrated in the U.S. but in much of the Americas. It's a recognized day in Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Columbia, etc. He "discovered" the Americas in the sense that his explorations prompted the eventual formation of these nations.



This is neither here nor there. Columbus did exactly what any leader would have done back then when faced with a lethal adversary. He isn't going to passively accept being slaughtered, as was the norm for explorers/settlers unable to defend themselves [[see Roanoke).

Alright dude, have fun continuing honoring this explorer [[he wasn't even looking for a new land just a new route to India and always believed what he "found" was part of Asia and again had nothing to do with the United States) as the rest of the country starts to honor, a long over due honor, our native peoples who have gotten the short end of the stick for the past 500 years.

Also don't think this day isn't without controversy in other American countries. The Bahamas replaced it, Venezuela changed it, Costa Rica changed it, and actually Brazil doesn't honor it. And in many of the countries it has more to do with Latin American identity and empowerment than to honor Columbus.

[Bham1982]

Alright dude, have fun continuing honoring this explorer [[he wasn't even looking for a new land just a new route to India and always believed what he "found" was part of Asia and again had nothing to do with the United States) as the rest of the country starts to honor, a long over due honor, our native peoples who have gotten the short end of the stick for the past 500 years.

I don't "honor" the explorer. I just responded to idiotic claims that Columbus=Hitler.

And the rest of the country isn't honoring native peoples, regardless of what happens with Columbus Day. It's a celebration of Italian heritage, and it isn't going anywhere, not in the U.S. and not in other countries with big Italian populations [[see Brazil and Argentina). It's huge in places like NYC and Sao Paulo.

It isn't big locally but it's because Michigan isn't particularly Italian, not because people have made it a Native American celebration because a few Sociology professors like to spew white guilt garbage to ignorant undergrads.

[dtowncitylover]

It isn't big locally but it's because Michigan isn't particularly Italian, not because people have made it a Native American celebration because a few Sociology professors like to spew white guilt garbage to ignorant undergrads.

Berkeley, Seattle, Minneapolis and Saint Paul, Traverse City, Albuquerque, South Dakota, as well as some tribes in Oklahoma and across the nation all celebrate Native American Day. Hawai'i celebrates Discoverers Day which celebrates the Polynesian discovery of Hawai'i. Alaska and Oregon don't celebrate at all. California and Texas don't offer it as a paid holiday. A little more than sociology profs and "ignorant" undergrads. 'Cause you know, knowing the truth about Columbus and refusing to honor him is ignorant.

[Hermod]

"In response to native unrest and revolt, Columbus ordered the a brutal crackdown in which many natives were killed; in an attempt to deter further rebellion, Columbus ordered their dismembered bodies to be paraded through the streets."

Read Peter Ackroyd's trilogy on British history from the beginning through the Stuart era and see what the standard punishments were for rebellious subjects. It was standard for the era, not just what Columbus did to a certain group.

[CassTechGrad]

There is no such thing as a “native American” because human brings did not originate on this continent at all. The Bering land bridge migration occurred 12,000 years ago and every human who migrated across the land bridge came from Eastern Siberia, and every so-called “Native American immigrant” directly descends from that same group of Eastern Siberian migrants

If you truly believe that Columbus was somehow responsible for screwing the “Eastern Siberian Native American immigrants” by coming to America, than prove it by turning over all you property and belongings to the local Siberian tribe and returning to the land of your ancestors. You should get down on your knees and thank God he did what he did. If that goomba, wop, dago didn’t cross the ocean in 1492, you and your family would be sitting in some stinking crowded shit hole today somewhere else in the world starving to death.

[aj3647]

I've always found it overly simplistic how people are inclined to assign today's social, moral and ethical standards of present day to those who lived centuries ago.

Bullshit. Even his own European colonial subjects thought he was a tyrant and a monster. He was so bad that they sent reports of his barbarism and cruelty back to Europe and King Ferdinand of Spain had him replaced as Colonial Governor, recalled him to Europe, and put him in prison for a time.

He's a monster by any century's definition of the word.

[Bham1982]

Bullshit. Even his own European colonial subjects thought he was a tyrant and a monster. He was so bad that they sent reports of his barbarism and cruelty back to Europe and King Ferdinand of Spain had him replaced as Colonial Governor, recalled him to Europe, and put him in prison for a time.

He's a monster by any century's definition of the word.

LOL, no. Is this what they're teaching at the Oppression 101 class at the local junior college?

First thing, King Ferdinand [[and Spanish kings in general) were incredibly brutal. They had absolutely no issue with mass slaughter of what they considered "savages". They made the British and French empire-builders look like choir boys. The story of Spanish colonization of Latin America is like 1000x more bloody than anything in the U.S. and Canada.

Columbus was jailed because his settlement in Hispanola was failing and not sufficiently lucrative for King Ferdinand. In short Columbus wasn't supplying enough treasure to keep the king happy, so he had him replaced. It had nothing to do with any concerns about the natives, who were cannon-fodder in the eyes of Spanish leadership.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Bullshit. Even his own European colonial subjects thought he was a tyrant and a monster. He was so bad that they sent reports of his barbarism and cruelty back to Europe and King Ferdinand of Spain had him replaced as Colonial Governor, recalled him to Europe, and put him in prison for a time.

He's a monster by any century's definition of the word.

Is that a two head or three headed monster? lighten up Bro.

[gazhekwe]

Dear Detroit Boy,

The statue is intact. It was given a stunningly satisfying costume for the "Holiday." It has done its job to provoke discussion on a "holiday" whose time to retire has come. It has now been returned to its original condition.

Dear CassTechGrad,

You are behind the times. The Bering Strait migration is being proven wrong by new discoveries all the time. Not that people did not come that way, but they did not JUST come that way. There is anthropological evidence going much farther back.

Dear ALL,

Columbus was a product of his times. The greed of the Europe empires was already legend around the world. There were three Papal Bulls in the latter half of the 15th century that created the so-called Doctrine of Discovery, establishing the superiority of the Christian religion and making sure the explorers had the blessing of the Popes to do whatever they had to to take over wherever they went and send the riches home. And by the way "convert" the people they found to Christianity. The really felt those people were better dead than pagan. So yes he, and Brother Junipero Serra, were products of their times. NOW is the time to reject all those disastrous teachings and heal ourselves and our world for the benefit of all.

Papal Bull Dum Diversas 18 June, 1452
http://www.doctrineofdiscovery.org/

The Bull Romanus Pontifex [[Nicholas V)
January 8, 1454
http://www.doctrineofdiscovery.org/


The Bull Inter Caetera [[Alexander VI)
May 4, 1493
http://www.doctrineofdiscovery.org/

[Dan Wesson]

[canuck]

Dear Detroit Boy,

The statue is intact. It was given a stunningly satisfying costume for the "Holiday." It has done its job to provoke discussion on a "holiday" whose time to retire has come. It has now been returned to its original condition.

Dear CassTechGrad,

You are behind the times. The Bering Strait migration is being proven wrong by new discoveries all the time. Not that people did not come that way, but they did not JUST come that way. There is anthropological evidence going much farther back.

Dear ALL,

Columbus was a product of his times. The greed of the Europe empires was already legend around the world. There were three Papal Bulls in the latter half of the 15th century that created the so-called Doctrine of Discovery, establishing the superiority of the Christian religion and making sure the explorers had the blessing of the Popes to do whatever they had to to take over wherever they went and send the riches home. And by the way "convert" the people they found to Christianity. The really felt those people were better dead than pagan. So yes he, and Brother Junipero Serra, were products of their times. NOW is the time to reject all those disastrous teachings and heal ourselves and our world for the benefit of all.

http://www.doctrineofdiscovery.org/

http://www.doctrineofdiscovery.org/

http://www.doctrineofdiscovery.org/

Yes, yes, yes and yes.

Also, let us remind ourselves that the same folks who refrain from judging Jefferson and Washington for owning slaves and projecting the idea of a virtuous Nation intent on pursuing Happiness and Liberty for all neglect other possibilities.

How can one say that Jefferson et al were only the product of their time when a luminary like Ben Franklin dispossessed himself of his slaves, and fought to emancipate his fellow humans, not just his white upper class bros. It is hard to dispel the untruths and half-truths we were meant to eagerly accept in the name of "Civilization". Same divverenz in Canada. In Canada, the French textbooks were entirely subjected to the Euro-centric but francophile view, anti-English whereas in English Canada, the same White-driven civilization had a distinctly Anglo view of domination.

[canuck]

That can also be a recipe for the kind of disastrous predicament the city of Detroit has found itself in.

Too little care for what was built just yesterday in order to constantly pull roots, look for modernity in temporary solutions, never satisfied, always in motion, without a thought or a care for posterity.

If we want to build on something, we had better know what came before, that is part of the learning process. Christopher Columbus deserves recognition for exploring regions previously unknown to Europeans. The preposterous claim of "discovery" is an insult not only to "First Nations" of the "Americas" [[named after Amerigo Vespucci, another contender) but to intelligent folks everywhere. As to the idea that technologically less advanced Nations mut either perish by the sword or fall by the wayside, that is another graceless and dumb point of view that furthers a warring agenda or at least justifies the violence of strong against weak. The same who absolve the textbook heroes from crimes are quick to point at the ghettoism for all the ills of the city. It takes two to tango.

[lpg]

Why not just abolish all holidays and that way no one will be offended.

[Ray1936]

Why not just abolish all holidays and that way no one will be offended.

It's okay with me. I'm retired.

[gazhekwe]

Daer Bham,

Columbus did enslave, torture and promote rape. He had no intention of treating these non-Christians humanely. He was an explorer who explored to exploit those he discovered on his travels. That is the part the American school system cleverly hides from us. Because you do not know something does not mean it did not happen.

[Gpwrangler]

Why not just abolish all holidays and that way no one will be offended.

Or we could just enjoy the days off and STFU. Geez does everything have to be a fucking controversy?

[Dan Wesson]

Daer Bham,

Columbus did enslave, torture and promote rape. He had no intention of treating these non-Christians humanely. He was an explorer who explored to exploit those he discovered on his travels. That is the part the American school system cleverly hides from us. Because you do not know something does not mean it did not happen.

You know darn well that things were not all peace, love and happiness between the tribes.

It is one reasons for intermarriage and other arrangements like treaty and pacts to keep tribal and nation states from annihilating each other.

It's in our nature and one of the major reasons why religion got such a strong foothold.

Even religion is no cure all. Look at the state of affairs between Abraham’s descendants.

[Bham1982]

Daer Bham,

Columbus did enslave, torture and promote rape. He had no intention of treating these non-Christians humanely. He was an explorer who explored to exploit those he discovered on his travels. That is the part the American school system cleverly hides from us. Because you do not know something does not mean it did not happen.

And you made all this up. No, Columbus did not "enslave, torture and promote rape". Your ignorance is nothing to be proud of.

You don't win "diversity points" by spouting PC idiocy.

Back in the real world, the Taino indians actually slaughtered all of the settlers from Columbus' first two voyages. And that's when they weren't slaughtering other tribes, and each other. The Taino were incredibly brutal and even practiced cannibalism.

So why aren't you calling native peoples of the Americas "Hitlers". Obviously because it doesn't fit your agenda of ridiculous ignorance. It's obviously the explorer dude from Genoa's fault, not the fact that Spain was strong and the Taino were weak.

[Honky Tonk]

It's okay with me. I'm retired.

I'm glad they abolished the Policeman's Field Day @ Tiger Stadium, though I have to admit, I did enjoy the tracer bullet exhibition.

[aj3647]

LOL, no. Is this what they're teaching at the Oppression 101 class at the local junior college?

If you say so. What college did you get your history degree from again? Don't feel the need to cite sources or anything, we'll just take your word as a self-professed expert historian.

See, here's an example of a source. Notice how it's a reputable news source citing actual historians and actual historical documents:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/07/books.spain

[aj3647]

And you made all this up. No, Columbus did not "enslave, torture and promote rape". Your ignorance is nothing to be proud of.

You don't win "diversity points" by spouting PC idiocy.

And you don't win points by revising history. From the writings of Christopher Columbus, literally in his own words:

http://ageofex.marinersmuseum.org/in...rsection&id=65

"Now that so much gold is found, a dispute arises as to which brings more profit, whether to go about robbing or to go to the mines. A hundred castellanos are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand, and for all ages a good price must be paid."

Let me spell out in simple terms what Columbus is referring to here: Sex slavery. The kidnapping of native women to be sold for sex. This is what Columbus' men were doing, under his watch, with his knowledge and consent. If you'd like to offer an alternative explanation for those words, I'm all ears. Perhaps you should not be calling others ignorant when you are the one who is ignorant of the facts.

Also note the age of the girls he refers to as being in the most "demand": nine to ten years old. Child rape, plain and simple. Mass child rape of prepubescent girls.

If you believe in a literal Hell, then without a doubt, Columbus is burning there for all eternity.

[gazhekwe]

Thank you for weighing in on the side of truth, aj. There are plenty of deniers in the face of overwhelming evidence, also plenty of people who like to say it wasn't all sweetness and light among the tribes Before Discovery. Well, guess what? If this were provable and documented, it still would not make all right what the exploiters and colonists did. They reduced millions to thousands in less than 300 years. If it was so bad here before, how did there get to be over 100 million people here Before Discovery? Less than 300,000 remained in 1910. So Exploitation and Colonialism had a profound impact.

“How many people inhabited the New World when Columbus landed on Hispaniola in 1492? How did the arrival of Europeans spark the population decline of aboriginal people in the New World? William M. Denevan writes that, “The discovery of America was followed by possibly the greatest demographic disaster in the history of the world.” Research by some scholars provides population estimates of the pre-contact Americas to be as high as 112 million in 1492, while others estimate the population to have been as low as eight million. In any case, the native population declined to less than six million by 1650.

http://uwpress.wisc.edu/books/0289.htm

- http://wiki.answers.com/Q/

“How Many Native Americans Were Living in 1910?”
“Answer: 265,683″

Source: “Historical Census Statistics on Population Totals By Race, 1790 to 1990, and By Hispanic Origin, 1970 to 1990, For The United States, Regions, Divisions, and States,” by Campbell Gibson and Kay Jung. Population Division, U. S. Census Bureau,Washington, DC 20233, September 2002.

- http://www.census.gov/

[canuck]

I was reading up on Jacques Cartier, the first French explorer of North America in 1534. On his first voyage, upon meeting the Micmac tribe in the Gaspé peninsula, the French Wiki article says that he invited two sons of the tribal chief to come to France. Reluctantly, the chief okayed as long as JC promised their return. The English version is more straightforward: it says they were kidnapped... It all depends on the source of information.

Jacques Cartier's men on his second trip got scurvy among the Iroquois who had lost fifty. The Iroquois hosts of Stadacone [[Quebec City) saved a whole bunch with a concoction made from the bark of a tree. [[Arbor Vitae)

[Hermod]

It would not have mattered if Columbus and the other explorers had been all sweetness and light and just acted as wondering tourists. The inhabitants of the western hemisphere would still have been decimated by their contacts with the Eurasian and African endemic diseases. The Roman empire was heavily depopulated by the arrival from Asia of "childhood diseases" which are far more serious in adult onset. During World War II, the building of the ALCAN Highway to Alaska exposed to disease and caused serious mortality in previously isolated Native American groups along the route.

[lpg]

Or we could just enjoy the days off and STFU. Geez does everything have to be a fucking controversy?

I guess no one heard us...Said while ducking the flying insults.