While in Flint, Don't drink their water

[313WX]

Now I'm hearing on WWJ that even the Flint water that has been filtered still has too much lead. The filters only work on water that has a high — but not too high — amount of lead.

Yikes!

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...lead/79542990/

Officials: Water may have too much lead for filters

[michmina]

There is no way a Brita filter [[that's all I've seen people using and they said they received them from the city) is going to be able to handle lead like that.

[Jimaz]

I'm guessing multiple filters connected in series might help but maybe not.

The WWJ story stressed that this is why people need to test their water even after filtration.

Of course, filters are only a temporary fix. We need to work toward a permanent fix where retail filters aren't necessary.

[Baselinepunk]

While the hits just keep coming . . . .

. . . . I'm wondering if this is what is was like when that certain computer company was crumbing from Dick Snyder's control just before he golden parachuted outta there . . .

[313WX]

While the hits just keep coming . . . .

. . . . I'm wondering if this is what is was like when that certain computer company was crumbing from Dick Snyder's control just before he golden parachuted outta there . . .

No doubt about it.

[Wesley Mouch]

But earlier, you defended to the death Snyder's claim that he didn't know anything about the water being "nasty" until the time he claimed [[October 2015).

So which is it? In what creative way are you going to defend Snyder this time?

I'm not interested in defending Snyder. I'm interested in how we make our urban areas better. And here's a hint -- its not demonizing people whose politics we don't share.

I don't know what Snyder knew, and when he knew it. But I know that this issue is much more complex than the simple political game being played. I think its well established that Flint water wasn't, shall we say, tasty. But that doesn't mean its poisonous. We rely on the water board, DEQ, EPA for safety.

btw, has the EPA agreed with the VT tests? Some of those results were so extreme that they deserve some scrutiny too. Has an impartial study been done -- and what are the results? Hard to get facts for all the noise.

[313WX]

It's amazing how a guy who was so zealous to save money that he killed 10 people and poisoned thousands of other people now expects taxpayers in California, Illinois, Minnesota, Washington, Massachusetts and New York to bail him out...

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2016/01/30/feds-deny-snyders-call-raise-flint-wic-eligibility/79568426/

Feds deny Snyder’s request to raise Flint WIC eligibility

[ABetterDetroit]

I'm interested in how we make our urban areas better. And here's a hint -- its not demonizing people whose politics we don't share.

Honestly, giving the hint shouldn't be necessary here. Metro Detroit practically invented that shit 50 years ago, just look around to see where it got us...

[313WX]

Metro Detroit practically invented that shit 50 years ago, just look around to see where it got us...

Good point.

And actually, Stephen Henderson just so happen to write a very good editorial on this subject yesterday...

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...licy/79531718/

Flint's long misery, at the hands of urban policy

[313WX]

Good point.

And actually, Stephen Henderson just so happen to write a very good editorial on this subject yesterday...

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...licy/79531718/

Flint's long misery, at the hands of urban policy

But in any event, that's getting us completely off-topic.

The Flint Water crisis had nothing to do with "how we make our urban areas better," but a conscious decision made by people who were appointed by and reported directly to Snyder to deliver untreated water.

Let's be blunt. Had treated water been delivered, Flint would still be facing all of the other issues it had been facing before [[high unemployment, extreme poverty, crumbling infrastructure, etc.) with hardly an eye brow raised by the average State of Michigan citizen had the city not been under state administrative control and if there wasn't at least some hint, based on the information we have thus far, that state officials were attempting to downplay the repercussion of their callous decision at best or blatantly covering them up at worst.

Of course, I can understand why a political shill or someone with an agenda would want to divert the discussion at hand. Their governor, whose policies they've 100% endorsed since day 1 and who seemingly could do no wrong depending on one's perspective, fucked up big time. But fortunately, there's no way for them to spin or squirm out of this crisis.

Now, in addition to ensuring the we get the people of Flint as much help as possible, we should see fit that the Governor and the people he put in place [[to implement his policies) that single handed-ly caused and then delayed addressing this crisis are at least shamed and heckled until they feel lower than dirt [[moral justice), or ideally, face punishment to the fullest extent of the law.

[Jimaz]

So — does this incident mean that the beast has finally been starved enough?

"Starving the beast" is a political strategy employed by American conservatives in order to limit government spending by cutting taxes in order to deprive the government of revenue in a deliberate effort to force the federal government to reduce spending.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...The Flint Water crisis had nothing to do with "how we make our urban areas better," but a conscious decision made by people who were appointed by and reported directly to Snyder to deliver untreated water. ...snip...
Now, in addition to ensuring the we get the people of Flint as much help as possible, we should see fit that the Governor and the people he put in place [[to implement his policies) that single handed-ly caused and then delayed addressing this crisis are at least shamed and heckled until they feel lower than dirt [[moral justice), or ideally, face punishment to the fullest extent of the law.

Henderson's article leads to both parties finding a solution. Your 'scorched earth' campaign of hate only helps fuel partisan politics.

If you really believe Snyder made a 'conscious decision' here, you're no better than those who call Obama a communist Muslim.

When you buy into the political arguments of the day, you are ignoring the thoughts and ideas of others. You are free to do that. I think its better to engage with people with different opinions.

Maybe Snyder did place the straw that broke the camel's back. But years and years of actions and inaction by Ds & Rs set the stage. The lead pipes were in the ground because of lack of, or failed urban policies. Policies deserve debate, not hate.

[313WX]

If you really believe Snyder made a 'conscious decision' here...

Try re-reading that again...

The Flint Water crisis had nothing to do with "how we make our urban areas better," but a conscious decision made by people who were appointed by and reported directly to Snyder to deliver untreated water.

Now I highly doubt Snyder had no idea what was going on, either through the numerous reports in the media about the complaints by GM and Flint residents or through the performance reviews of his direct reports.

And that may be why he's reluctant to release any 2013 emails and hasn't released ALL communications related to the crisis, aside from token emails in 2014 and 2015.

But in the unlikely chance that he was completely clueless about the water problems in Flint, that still makes him a incompetent fool that's not capable of managing a state that nearly 10 million people call home.

And I'm not just picking on Snyder and Republicans. I would feel the same way if this happened with Granholm or Obama. When I still had the freedom of choice to do so in the state of Michigan, I never did vote down a straight party ticket as an independent voter. So to claim that I'm engaging in partisan politics to me is a sad attempt at ad-hominem during a time when we instead should be demanding justice for those who have been harmed along with getting them the assistance they need.

[Wesley Mouch]

Try re-reading that again...
...
Now I highly doubt Snyder had no idea what was going on, either through the numerous reports in the media about the complaints by GM and Flint residents or through the performance reviews of his direct reports.

And that may be why he's reluctant to release any 2013 emails and hasn't released ALL communications related to the crisis, aside from token emails in 2014 and 2015.

But in the unlikely chance that he was completely clueless about the water problems in Flint, that still makes him a incompetent fool that's not capable of managing a state that nearly 10 million people call home.

And I'm not just picking on Snyder and Republicans. I would feel the same way if this happened with Granholm or Obama. When I still had the freedom of choice to do so in the state of Michigan, I never did vote down a straight party ticket as an independent voter. So to claim that I'm engaging in partisan politics to me is a sad attempt at ad-hominem during a time when we instead should be demanding justice for those who have been harmed along with getting them the assistance they need.

You're right, I misread your words. Ad-hominem attack not intended. Only a counter to your efforts to read blame into anything Snyder did.

Do you think the EPA is to blame as well? How about the city administration of Flint. Or the water board? Or the Detroit Water Board? Or the EM?

Are they not as well to blame?

[313WX]

Do you think the EPA is to blame as well?

As states are considered sovereign per the US Constitution, federal agencies [[including the EPA) can't just force states to take action when it's not clear whether federal law allows them to.


Now, I do certainly believe that's something we should look into changing going forward.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ater/78719620/

Starting with inquiries made in February, the federal agency battled Michigan’s Department of Environmental Quality behind the scenes for at least six months over whether Flint needed to use chemical treatments to keep lead lines and plumbing connections from leaching into drinking water. The EPA did not publicize its concern that Flint residents’ health was jeopardized by the state’s insistence that such controls were not required by law.

Instead of moving quickly to verify the concerns or take preventative measures, federal officials opted to prod the DEQ to act, EPA Region 5 Administrator Susan Hedman told The Detroit News this week. Hedman said she sought a legal opinion on whether the EPA could force action, but it wasn’t completed until November.

How about the city administration of Flint. Or the water board?

What has been happening between the leadership in Flint and State of Michigan officials is the equivalent of a carjacker holding a gun to a driver's head and forcing said driver to follow their orders or risk being harmed. Unless the leadership in Flint want to lose their jobs and income, they had no choice but to abide by decisions State of Michigan officials made.

So to answer your question? Flint's city leaders are not to blame considering that, if they gave any endorsements to Snyder administration's decision to deliver untreated water, it was because they were under duress.

Or the Detroit Water Board?

Considering that the city of Detroit was also under Emergency Management at the time the decision was made to begin delivering untreated water to the citizens of Flint and no longer deliver water from the city of Detroit, I think it's best if those who want to absolve Snyder of blame not go this route.

But in any event, it has been revealed in a leaked email that it was Flint's EM, Darnell Earley, who chose to end the city of Flint's contract with DWSD, despite the fact that DWSD offered Flint a deal that would have saved them even more money than they were hoping to save by switching to the KWA pipeline.

So to answer your question? No, the Detroit Water Board is also not to blame.

Or the EM?

See the response to your question about the city administration of Flint.

[Now&then]

http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/arch...gs-in-jan-2015

Snyder admin trucked clean water into Flint state buildings in Jan 2015

I read the same things in the Free Press and my jaw dropped. How officials knew and kept themselves healthy while others got poisoned. As far as I understand, this was done while Flint was under Snyder's appointed manager. Or am I wrong on that?

[compn]

The Flint Water crisis had nothing to do with "how we make our urban areas better," but a conscious decision made by people who were appointed by and reported directly to Snyder to deliver untreated water.

About those appointments...

Does anyone here care that [[Snyder appointed, now resigned) DEQ director Dan Wyant had an MBA and a Food Systems Management degree?
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/de...1_347397_7.pdf

You know, the director of the department that is supposed to make sure we have clean water in the entire state? He was qualified to manage a Burger King.

Ohio's environment department director has a masters in environmental science. http://www.epa.state.oh.us/dir/Home.aspx

After Dan Wyant resigned, Snyder appointed a new DEQ director, Keith Creagh.
Keith Creagh, the director of the DNR, with a degree in forestry. To run the department of environmental quality.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...-deq/78068188/

Ohio is better than us. We are officially Michissippi. Where unqualified people run the state into the poisoned ground. Where people like Wesley defend Snyder's unqualified appointments, even after major disasters occur.

[compn]

There is enough blame to go around.

Snyder is just one of the people who gets some blame. Yes, EPA Susan gets blame as well for not going public after EPA Miguel Del Toral's report. Flint Mayor gets blame after seeing that report and not telling the public either. MDEQ gets a lot of blame, they tested the flint water and said it was OK before flint switched over. MDHHS gets blame as well for ignoring, attacking and belittling Dr Mona's child blood study report. Flint EMs gets blame too.

Andy Dillon said it wasnt his decision to use flint river.
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde..._treasure.html

Article mentions that it might be the Flint EM before Darnel Earley , Ed Kurtz.

[401don]

I've seen at least 2 maybe 3 different doctors who have stated they were aware of the high lead levels and the danger. If they were getting no results complaining to authorities, should they not have been screaming to any and all media, both local and national?

[Wesley Mouch]

313, so basically 'Snyder made me do it'. Sounds almost like Flip Wilson.

Everyone gets a pass from you -- except Ricky. He's the devil.

[313WX]

I read the same things in the Free Press and my jaw dropped. How officials knew and kept themselves healthy while others got poisoned. As far as I understand, this was done while Flint was under Snyder's appointed manager. Or am I wrong on that?

You're correct [[Jerry Ambrose).

BTW, he is the person who testified in another deposition that Ed Kurtz initially rejected use of the Flint River after discussion with the MDEQ.

[313WX]

313, so basically 'Snyder made me do it'. Sounds almost like Flip Wilson.

Everyone gets a pass from you -- except Ricky. He's the devil.

That's what happens when you think you're the only person in the room who knows what's best for everyone and implement policies that show as such.

You must accept all responsibility PLUS accountability [[there's a difference, as besides accepting the responsibility of fixing your fuck-up, also accepting accountability means facing the appropriate consequences for your actions) for the good and bad results.

[renf]

http://www.bloombergview.com/article...t-water-crisis

Does sovereign immunity mean that Governor Snyder, Emergency Manager Early and Director Dan Wyant and the state legislature may not be sued for their role in the Flint water crisis? Is Stephen Carter correct in his views?

[313WX]

http://www.bloombergview.com/article...t-water-crisis

Does sovereign immunity mean that Governor Snyder, Emergency Manager Early and Director Dan Wyant and the state legislature may not be sued for their role in the Flint water crisis? Is Stephen Carter correct in his views?

Michigan may not be able to sue Michigan and the federal government may not be abke to sue Michigan,, but the DOJ and the state attorney general can sue individuals who work for Michigan [[see Rod Blagojevich and Illinois as an example).

[Hermod]

http://www.bloombergview.com/article...t-water-crisis

Does sovereign immunity mean that Governor Snyder, Emergency Manager Early and Director Dan Wyant and the state legislature may not be sued for their role in the Flint water crisis? Is Stephen Carter correct in his views?

Yes and if we get the "socialism" utopia that everybody wants and the government owns everything, you won't be able to sue anybody.