What the heck happened?

**dguy4evr** · September-16-15, 02:08 PM

I know I am probably beating a past thread to death but here goes....

I was born and raised on Detroit's lower East Side. We floated around the area bounded by Warren to the North, Charlevoix to the South, Conner to the West, and Alter to the East. After attending Jackson Jr. High School, I decided to go to Wilbur Wright Co-Op High School. I was told that it had the best automotive curriculum in the state and it did indeed. It had the best teachers and equipment you could ask for.

The point of this thread is this: I was a white student attending a predominantly non white school. Most of the students were either Latino or African American. This was during the early to mid 60's when there was a lot of dissension between the races. Although there was this animosity I never felt it in school. There was the occasional flare up but it was usually due to what we called, "Copping on someone's Mama" that sometimes got out of hand. But other than that we were in the school to get an education and we learned to work together despite our different backgrounds. My best friends in school were almost all non white and I left there with so many fond memories and a great all around education. My point is, maybe I'm a pipe dreamer but I don't understand why there is so much animosity today compared to then. There was a lot more racial profiling and abuse by the police back then. Where are we going wrong? It seems like there is a breakdown of communication and a feeling of animosity toward each other for no reason but color. Am I missing something here?

**313WX** · September-16-15, 02:25 PM

We just hear more about racial profiling and animosity now because the news about it travels farther and faster. Plus, there are a lot more special interest groups that profit from sensationalizing this stuff than in the past.

I agree that things are much better now than 50 years ago overall

**mwilbert** · September-16-15, 02:34 PM

I think this is perfectly good question, but answering it in any reasonable way [[and I'm not saying I could) would require going through a fairly comprehensive political, economic, and social history of at least the past 50 years in the US, in a way that would be certain to irritate almost everyone who reads this forum. I really don't think that this medium is suitable for that discussion.

One book I liked that describes part of what happened in between, even though it doesn't really answer your question, is "Nixonland" by Rick Perlstein, but that is just one of the hundreds if not thousands of books that deal with aspects of this subject, from all different perspectives. As you might imagine, this is not a subject where there is broad agreement.

**hybridy** · September-16-15, 03:42 PM

"Right now, all sorts of people are trying to rethink and reinvent education, to get poor minority kids performing as well as white kids. But there's one thing nobody tries anymore, despite lots of evidence that it works: desegregation"

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

http://www.propublica.org/article/fe...ol-segregation

**Shai_Hulud** · September-16-15, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by hybridy

"Right now, all sorts of people are trying to rethink and reinvent education, to get poor minority kids performing as well as white kids. But there's one thing nobody tries anymore, despite lots of evidence that it works: desegregation"

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

http://www.propublica.org/article/fe...ol-segregation

Good article. Sad, but good.

**Hermod** · September-16-15, 04:41 PM

How many times do we go down this road? We can make all the plans we want for desegregation. We can have cross district busing. The fact of the matter is that there is a racial "tipping point" a percentage where a school becomes "too black" and rapidly re-segregates as white families move away, send their kids to private or parochial school, send their kids to live with grandparents, falsify addresses, home school, etc. As one lawyer noted in a school desegregation court case where intense busing wasn't meeting desegregation goals, "what are you going to do, chase them with helicopters?". Unless we can force people to live in properly diversified communities and force them to send their kids to the assigned public school, any desegregated school which passes the "tipping point" will rapidly become [[virtually) all minority.

**hybridy** · September-16-15, 05:07 PM

Give it a listen bruh

**313WX** · September-16-15, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by hybridy

Give it a listen bruh

He's right. You can't force people to integrate with each other.

**EastsideAl** · September-17-15, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

How many times do we go down this road? We can make all the plans we want for desegregation. We can have cross district busing. The fact of the matter is that there is a racial "tipping point" a percentage where a school becomes "too black" and rapidly re-segregates as white families move away, send their kids to private or parochial school, send their kids to live with grandparents, falsify addresses, home school, etc. As one lawyer noted in a school desegregation court case where intense busing wasn't meeting desegregation goals, "what are you going to do, chase them with helicopters?". Unless we can force people to live in properly diversified communities and force them to send their kids to the assigned public school, any desegregated school which passes the "tipping point" will rapidly become [[virtually) all minority.

As someone who went to majority non-white schools for my entire schooling [[and my sister and I were the only white kids in our elementary school) until I went to MSU, this is something I will never understand. Not only wasn't it a bad experience, it was the best and most formative experience of my life. Going to school for years with people who were not just like me, who came from a different background and places, with very different life experiences and history really gave me an appreciation for both the differences and similarities in people, and how it is we can get along and work and live together.

Why run from the chance to have a broader and deeper set of experiences and a wider view of life and people? The depth of racism never fails to astound and appall me.

**dguy4evr** · September-17-15, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

As someone who went to majority non-white schools for my entire schooling [[and my sister and I were the only white kids in our elementary school) until I went to MSU, this is something I will never understand. Not only wasn't it a bad experience, it was the best and most formative experience of my life. Going to school for years with people who were not just like me, who came from a different background and places, with very different life experiences and history really gave me an appreciation for both the differences and similarities in people, and how it is we can get along and work and live together.

Why run from the chance to have a broader and deeper set of experiences and a wider view of life and people? The depth of racism never fails to astound and appall me.

Truer words never spoken Al!

**Hermod** · September-16-15, 05:15 PM

Data has shown that black kids in a 95% white school do a whole lot better than black kids in a 95% black school. Since experience has shown that we can not realistically get rid of 95% black schools, the question then has to be how can we make a 95% black school function effectively so as to provide an adequate [[or better, excellent) education for the kids in that school?

**Danny** · September-17-15, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Data has shown that black kids in a 95% white school do a whole lot better than black kids in a 95% black school. Since experience has shown that we can not realistically get rid of 95% black schools, the question then has to be how can we make a 95% black school function effectively so as to provide an adequate [[or better, excellent) education for the kids in that school?

That data is true. The performance of the white school is well socially structured; mostly by middle class white families and nuclear families. You send can a poor black kid from the ghetto-hoods of Detroit to any suburban school and he will succeed [[ As long he could fit in with white kids.)

Imagine you could send a white boy from the suburbs to all black Detroit Public School. How would he be educated? Will he mingle and make friends with poor black kids coming from welfare and food stamp pacified families? Will he get beat up! and there is no authorities to help him. I was wondering will he succeed or fail coming from the Detroit Public Schools.

From the results after the Michigan School of Choice Act of 2002. More black kids from Detroit went to successful all white suburban schools. Rarely some white families from the suburbs send their kids to Detroit Public School as more them send their kids to other far away suburban schools.

For results and factual data log in to: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/di...40/search.aspx

You all get more answers what you're looking for.

**Honky Tonk** · September-17-15, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Danny

That data is true. The performance of the white school is well socially structured; mostly by middle class white families and nuclear families. You send can a poor black kid from the ghetto-hoods of Detroit to any suburban school and he will succeed [[ As long he could fit in with white kids.)

Imagine you could send a white boy from the suburbs to all black Detroit Public School. How would he be educated? Will he mingle and make friends with poor black kids coming from welfare and food stamp pacified families? Will he get beat up! and there is no authorities to help him. I was wondering will he succeed or fail coming from the Detroit Public Schools.

From the results after the Michigan School of Choice Act of 2002. More black kids from Detroit went to successful all white suburban schools. Rarely some white families from the suburbs send their kids to Detroit Public School as more them send their kids to other far away suburban schools.

For results and factual data log in to: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/di...40/search.aspx

You all get more answers what you're looking for.

Will he spray paint Black hatred racial slurs on the hallway walls, because, you know, he feel "different"?

**JenniferL** · September-16-15, 06:50 PM

A 95% black school can function if the student population is mostly middle class. [[For a local example, see Southfield.) But middle-class black parents, like middle-class white parents, will move or send their kids to private schools if the local school gets to be "too poor."

**mwilbert** · September-16-15, 07:08 PM

There are several models of school that have proven effective for largely black/poor student populations, for example the Success Academy and KIPP models. The problem is that although these models have been shown to be replicable, with successful schools in multiple locations, they haven't been shown to be scalable, because the demands on the teachers are extreme and the costs are high, which makes staffing and paying for more of these schools very difficult. Many of the existing schools are subsidized by foundations or other sources, but obviously there is a limit to how much of that type of money is available.

**Dan Wesson** · September-16-15, 07:12 PM

What the heck happened?

"My point is, maybe I'm a pipe dreamer but I don't understand why there is so much animosity today compared to then."

Empowerment... as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empowerment

**Hypestyles** · September-17-15, 08:22 AM

Detroit needs several more vo-tech high schools again. Now.

**Hermod** · September-17-15, 08:45 AM

Years ago, you could walk right out of Cass Tech or Commerce into a job. That diploma was like gold.

**Danny** · September-17-15, 09:30 AM

Intergrated schools is not just on race, it's class. That is why Michigan has the Schools of Choice. New students from tough streets and enroll in any well educated public school buildings. It's up of the school board to fill any school buildings to their required capacity so they can be set for count day for receive federal tax dollars.

Every since Charter School Act and the School of Choice Act. pass in Rome[[ I mean Lansing) Detroit Public Schools including other poor performance schools are losing out of their students and teachers. Most of their school buildings closed and in dire need for fed money.

Most Charter Schools are losing out, too. Without their benefactors, their schools closed in a instant [[ even though they receive some fed grants after county day.)

The point of the matter is having your child enroll in a best performing schools depends of class before race. The biggest symptom is will your learn something out of that school.

**FormerEastsider** · September-17-15, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Years ago, you could walk right out of Cass Tech or Commerce into a job. That diploma was like gold.

I went to Commerce and then Cass when Commerce was torn down. That was good back in the 60's but now if they don't walk right into a university and stay until they have a master's degree or higher it won't matter what high school they graduated from.

**ndavies** · September-17-15, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by FormerEastsider

I went to Commerce and then Cass when Commerce was torn down. That was good back in the 60's but now if they don't walk right into a university and stay until they have a master's degree or higher it won't matter what high school they graduated from.

This is definitely not true. We have a huge demand in the region for skilled trades. You know plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists, electronics techs, mechanics and carpenters. There will be a huge numbers of baby boomers retiring from places that haven't hired people in numbers in years.

These jobs will pay excellent wages due to the pent up demand and the lack of people being trained to do these jobs.

Universities do not teach these skills. Most of these jobs require only an apprenticeship or a 2 year associates degree.

Not every student will get through a university and not every job requires a university degree.

**Honky Tonk** · September-17-15, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

This is definitely not true. We have a huge demand in the region for skilled trades. You know plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists, electronics techs, mechanics and carpenters. There will be a huge numbers of baby boomers retiring from places that haven't hired people in numbers in years.

These jobs will pay excellent wages due to the pent up demand and the lack of people being trained to do these jobs.

Universities do not teach these skills. Most of these jobs require only an apprenticeship or a 2 year associates degree.

Not every student will get through a university and not every job requires a university degree.

True, but it's not your Father's skilled trade. The new order requires working knowledge of math and the sciences. Plus you need to be keen on your analytical and problem solving skills. On the other hand, I work in a "must be degreed" environment. Some of these people can't think their way out of a paper bag.

**ndavies** · September-17-15, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

True, but it's not your Father's skilled trade. The new order requires working knowledge of math and the sciences. Plus you need to be keen on your analytical and problem solving skills. On the other hand, I work in a "must be degreed" environment. Some of these people can't think their way out of a paper bag.

All of these jobs have always required working knowledge of Math and sciences. That's what made them skilled trades. The only addition today is the required basic computer skills.

The difference today is anyone with the math/science skills to do these types of jobs are being pushed into a University track.

**Hermod** · September-17-15, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

True, but it's not your Father's skilled trade. The new order requires working knowledge of math and the sciences. Plus you need to be keen on your analytical and problem solving skills. On the other hand, I work in a "must be degreed" environment. Some of these people can't think their way out of a paper bag.

My last job before I retired I had six people working for me [[not counting the tech writer or the secretary). Three had PhDs, two had masters degrees, and one lady just finished high school, but worked her way up. The last three were the ones I relied on. One of the PhD was OK, but the other two couldn't pour sand out of a paper bag. One realized he was worthless. The other one was dangerous because he didn't realize he was worthless.

**FormerEastsider** · September-17-15, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by ndavies

This is definitely not true. We have a huge demand in the region for skilled trades. You know plumbers, electricians, welders, machinists, electronics techs, mechanics and carpenters. There will be a huge numbers of baby boomers retiring from places that haven't hired people in numbers in years.

These jobs will pay excellent wages due to the pent up demand and the lack of people being trained to do these jobs.

Universities do not teach these skills. Most of these jobs require only an apprenticeship or a 2 year associates degree.

Not every student will get through a university and not every job requires a university degree.

I was responding to the poster who was talking about about Cass Tech graduates. Cass Tech, as I'm sure you know, is a college prep high school. It's been 50 years since I graduated but I don't remember them teaching plumbing, welding, or electricity.