Ferguson Effect?

[DetroitBoy]

You lost me on the first sentence here. Teachers uh.. Teach for a living. And the police, well... its their job to do something about bad behavior. Is this stuff difficult for some?

Do you have any friends that are teachers? They are responsible for nearly everything a child's PARENTS should teach them in order for them to be prepared to come to school and learn. They would be thrilled to spend their time teaching the subjects they are trained to teach instead of being parent, nurse, psychologist, social worker, disciplinarian and other things for their students.

[bust]

Do you have any friends that are teachers? They are responsible for nearly everything a child's PARENTS should teach them in order for them to be prepared to come to school and learn. They would be thrilled to spend their time teaching the subjects they are trained to teach instead of being parent, nurse, psychologist, social worker, disciplinarian and other things for their students.

I agree with this aspect of your argument. The primary responsibility for a child's behavior and overall outlook on life is the parents'. When parents fail the community is left to pick up the slack. Teachers are a big part of that, and of course it's wonderful when they go above and beyond to help, but it's not their training and not their responsibility. There is great value in a teacher who teaches good academics whether or not they have the mettle to shoulder the additional responsibility of social worker.

I know some great teachers, in my immediate family. As an aside, and without getting into too many personal details, the worst problems they've had with parents were at a suburban private school, from parents unhappy with the bad grades their children sometimes deserved. Some parents were downright threatening. Ultimately, it was enough to warrant a voluntary change in employment. And it came as great relief teaching ESL in the 'hood. The immigrant kids had their own problems, but overall they were happy to learn, and their parents grateful.

However I disagree with this part:

..snip..
We have now entered a period where every officer and law enforcement agency is looked at with an eye of suspicion for attempting to maintain order and the safety of the community. God forbid they should touch the wrong person or use their weapon to fire back when their lives are threatened in fear of facing an investigation, suspension, threats and dismissal or even death.

This is both an exaggeration and an oversimplification of what's going on. I think police in general are held in high regard. It's an incredibly difficult, dangerous, and noble profession. But not all officers and not all departments are equal. We know better than to think they're infallible. And it's human nature for those whom police have treated with suspicion to reciprocate distrust. Even more understandable for any who have been roughed up, or worse. It's not typical, but events keep proving it happens. We should oppose injustice from wherever it comes.

It is precisely because of the crucial role police play in society we should hold them to a high standard. A small subset of critics get it wrong, but most critics of police misbehavior are among the most motivated to support law and order. Crimes are the biggest injustices. We should be fighting crime together, whether it comes from our homie or a fellow officer.

[[Steps off soapbox. Exits stage right.)

[Wesley Mouch]

You are fixated on "broken windows" policing like it's some kind of panacea. It isn't.

You're right. And its a weakness of mine. I hate seeing people hurt themselves. I need to learn how to advocate for my beliefs without seeming to be 'fixated'. This forum helps. [[And I'm certainly not alone in having a fixation, am I?)

I believe that the fixation on police brutality and racism is counterproductive. That it hurts blacks and whites alike. They aren't panaceas either.

I tell you this as a New Yorker who lived through both of those most recent blackouts, and who has been here, and a city more dangerous, since crime was at its statistically proven worst: It's ridiculous and absurd and adjectives much stronger to attribute any broken windows policy as an explanation why New Yorkers did not misbehave more recently when they easily could.

Hard to understand why quality of life policing wouldn't be a factor, even if not the main factor.

A broken windows policy did not instill good behavior. New Yorkers decided this amongst themselves. The 2003 blackout happened when 9/11 was still very fresh in our memories. It deserves immeasurably more credit than that. The 2012 blackout happened when we all faced a common enemy: the storm.

I say this even as I agree with "broken windows" policing in theory. This qualification is important. It loses its benefit done with bias or aggression. Alienating large portions of society causes more harm than any short term benefits it brings. Particularly to the individuals subjected to it, and their communities. Consider the question: What is the greater effect when the people suffering most from crime are treated like criminals?

I agree with you. Like many things, sometimes you need to do everything right to get the full benefit.

Conditions vary. But from the places I know, and I'm not saying Detroit, "broken windows" policing done properly does help. However broken windows and aggressive or biased policing are not the same. And even if perfectly implemented is not enough. More important: inclusive governance. And policing that fights crime even as it encourages us to join as one. Some lucky places already have it. Not everywhere does.

I might suggest at this point that you're fixated on 'inclusion', but I'll resist!

The problems are complex. And the solutions will be complex and multi-faceted. We do need to do everything right to really gain the benefit. Fixation on brutality/racism and on ending quality of life policing isn't getting everything right.

[Richard]

One has to wonder if it is really about racism or uneducated poverty.

So take the white people that live in the mountains and worked the coal mines their entire life,no more mines and they cannot afford to move,they have no money,they lack in education and have no future prospects.

Everywhere one goes you can find the disadvantaged,which is a horrible word to use,because they are in positions that others do not like of feel comfortable to be in.

How come they do not riot and burn the mountain down?

How come millions of African Americans that came from the "projects" were able to rise above and become successful while others remain?

I do not buy it,it does not matter what color you are unless you were born into wealth you have to bite,scratch,kick and crawl to get ahead and there is always someone there to try and knock you right back down,and there are times when you have to shut your mouth and put up with somebody's BS in order to move ahead.

It also does not matter what color you are,if you live in a mixed or depressed area you will get crap from LEO because they do lump everybody together and become more aggressive.

I believe there are some good LEO but I also know that there are some bad,and it seems as if the younger power trip ones are the worst.It does not matter if you are right or wrong if you do not bite your tunge you will go to jail.That is where the frustration comes in.

I have lived in million dollar neighborhoods and in depressed neighborhoods and there is a world of difference in policing between the two.

White guy shakes his African American neighbors hand in a ritzy neighborhood then you are being neighborly,do the same thing in a depressed neighborhood and you are doing a drug deal and what the hell are you doing in this neighborhood as a white guy anyways.

You do not think driving while white is not an issue?

[Wesley Mouch]

I...snip...A small subset of critics get it wrong, but most critics of police misbehavior are among the most motivated to support law and order. Crimes are the biggest injustices. We should be fighting crime together, whether it comes from our homie or a fellow officer....snip...

Maybe it is a small subset -- but when that subset includes Bill DiBlasio, its a problem.

Outrage at real police violence is appreciated. Lack of outrage at deaths like this from gang violence is missing: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/ny...ies-below&_r=0

[Shai_Hulud]

Lack of outrage at deaths like this from gang violence is missing: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/ny...ies-below&_r=0

I assure you, at the very least, the crowd of people that were fired upon randomly in the middle of the day are outraged. As are those who know them, others nearby, and I didn't detect glee from the authors of that article either.

Outrage at intra-racial violence and outrage at police violence are not mutually exclusive. Black people can, and do, care about both and need not choose one or the other.

If we're talking about the sum of black on black crime, somewhere around 50% of the people involved are victims. Those people care, and all of those people are black. That alone should be enough to stop people from making the absurd statement that black people do not care about black violence.

Yet despite that, and being demonstrably false, the idea continues. That kind of deflection happens whenever race is brought up. Bring up minority poverty, someone else brings up welfare fraud. Bring up educational inequality someone else brings up how unfair affirmative action is.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...otherwise.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-crime/378629/

[Bham1982]

Outrage at intra-racial violence and outrage at police violence are not mutually exclusive. Black people can, and do, care about both and need not choose one or the other.

They can, but they don't.

There is no outrage over the thousands and thousands of annual victims of black-on-black violence.

There is massive outrage, however, when a black criminal is killed by a non-black police officer in self defense [[confirmed by the U.S. Justice Department, which is headed by an African American civil rights attorney).

The last major protests in Detroit were during the Ferguson aftermath. There will be no protests until the next inevitable incident meeting the required black-white, criminal-cop scenario.

And yes, people do need to choose. There isn't unlimited capacity for outrage. The silence over the daily carnage, contrasted with the outrage over justified police self-defense in response to a violent criminal, speaks volumes.

[Shai_Hulud]

They can, but they don't.

There is no outrage over the thousands and thousands of annual victims of black-on-black violence.

There is massive outrage, however, when a black criminal is killed by a non-black police officer in self defense [[confirmed by the U.S. Justice Department, which is headed by an African American civil rights attorney).

The last major protests in Detroit were during the Ferguson aftermath. There will be no protests until the next inevitable incident meeting the required black-white, criminal-cop scenario.

And yes, people do need to choose. There isn't unlimited capacity for outrage. The silence over the daily carnage, contrasted with the outrage over justified police self-defense in response to a violent criminal, speaks volumes.

Bullshit. Outrage over black violence may not generate national headlines, there may not be organization after every incident and it certainly does not receive the attention it should. It is still most certainly there, it's a constant refrain in every black neighborhood, church, community organization and on and on. Crime and violence are constant threats in the black community and indifference is not the feeling being generated.

Even if police violence does generate more outrage that's not unreasonable. Heinous as any murder is, if there is fear that it was at the hands of police then that is especially threatening for reasons that should not need explanation.

[DetroitBoy]

Bullshit. Outrage over black violence may not generate national headlines, there may not be organization after every incident and it certainly does not receive the attention it should. It is still most certainly there, it's a constant refrain in every black neighborhood, church, community organization and on and on. Crime and violence are constant threats in the black community and indifference is not the feeling being generated.

Even if police violence does generate more outrage that's not unreasonable. Heinous as any murder is, if there is fear that it was at the hands of police then that is especially threatening for reasons that should not need explanation.

When we see malicious destruction of personal property and rioting over the police NOT doing enough to stop black on black crime, I will believe it. In the meantime, actions speak much louder than words.

[Richard]

Bullshit. Outrage over black violence may not generate national headlines, there may not be organization after every incident and it certainly does not receive the attention it should. It is still most certainly there, it's a constant refrain in every black neighborhood, church, community organization and on and on. Crime and violence are constant threats in the black community and indifference is not the feeling being generated.

Even if police violence does generate more outrage that's not unreasonable. Heinous as any murder is, if there is fear that it was at the hands of police then that is especially threatening for reasons that should not need explanation.

lots of generalizations there,it is not every black community as it is not every black,as in all races there is a level disparity.There is white trash,black trash,green trash and it does not matter.

You go to places like England and they have the same issues in white neighborhoods,the question is ,why the mental need to burn everything to the ground or destroy the neighborhood to get attention?

When MLKjr advocated it was clear without violence on the part of the protesters,did that not work?

[Wesley Mouch]

I assure you, at the very least, the crowd of people that were fired upon randomly in the middle of the day are outraged. As are those who know them, others nearby, and I didn't detect glee from the authors of that article either.

Outrage at intra-racial violence and outrage at police violence are not mutually exclusive. Black people can, and do, care about both and need not choose one or the other.

If we're talking about the sum of black on black crime, somewhere around 50% of the people involved are victims. Those people care, and all of those people are black. That alone should be enough to stop people from making the absurd statement that black people do not care about black violence.

Yet despite that, and being demonstrably false, the idea continues. That kind of deflection happens whenever race is brought up. Bring up minority poverty, someone else brings up welfare fraud. Bring up educational inequality someone else brings up how unfair affirmative action is.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...otherwise.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-crime/378629/

First, it only looks like deflection when you don't agree, it seems. I think you're comments are deflection too.

But get real here. You can't be suggesting that the black community's attitude on crime has anywhere near the popular pull that BLM has achieved in just a few years. There's a clear move to monitor police brutality. BonB crime is just another day. Hardly makes the news. Nobody protests -- except in the general sense that if we could just get rid of all the racism crime would go away.

[Bham1982]

Bullshit. Outrage over black violence may not generate national headlines, there may not be organization after every incident and it certainly does not receive the attention it should. It is still most certainly there, it's a constant refrain in every black neighborhood, church, community organization and on and on. Crime and violence are constant threats in the black community and indifference is not the feeling being generated.

We know this is complete BS. People generally don't care.

The last time Detroit was disrupted from huge protests was during Ferguson. I remember Noel Night last year, when hundreds of protestors, chanting "Hands Up Don't Shoot" and "No Justice No Peace", shut down Woodward and Cass and Warren and almost completely disrupted the event.

If your claims were true, and black/white/green whatever people really cared about black on black violence like they did about Ferguson [[which was all a lie anyways per the Justice Department) then there would be daily protests in Detroit shutting down Woodward, blocking the freeway exits downtown, and generally bringing commerce to a halt.

But there are no protests. No one cares. The next time Woodward is shut down by hundreds will be the next time there is a black criminal dead at the hands of a non-black police officer. Until then, nothing.

[Gpwrangler]

We know this is complete BS. People generally don't care.

The last time Detroit was disrupted from huge protests was during Ferguson. I remember Noel Night last year, when hundreds of protestors, chanting "Hands Up Don't Shoot" and "No Justice No Peace", shut down Woodward and Cass and Warren and almost completely disrupted the event.
.

The protesters didn't even come close to shutting down the event.