Crowne Plaza could add second tower

[JBMcB]

If you can't control the bed bug problem in one building, why should you be allowed to build another?

Is there evidence of them having a bed bug problem? They got sign-off on the new tower by all the relevant agencies. If bed bugs are that severe a problem, why wouldn't it be part of the permit process [[if it isn't already?) According to the owners of the current hotel, they have taken care of any bed bug problems they have had. Is there any evidence to the contrary?

[LongGone06]

And it doesn't seem to be about voting down the unionization, it was about the treatment of those workers that probably voted yes and if there was any reprimand for them doing so.

Councilwoman Ayers was involved in the unionization effort before joining council. She has a clear conflict of interest and should recuse herself on this issue.

[Atticus]

Councilwoman Ayers was involved in the unionization effort before joining council. She has a clear conflict of interest and should recuse herself on this issue.

Well, clouncil did it again. Can’t decide if this is a Trumpish show off my power by clouncil, or a case of kickbacks not being met. Sad to see either way. I was really hoping that post Kevin Orr the whole Clouncil situation would go away. Clearly wishful thinking.

Here is the thing. A new structure was proposed, and the denial [[again) had nothing to do with architecture, engineering, or financing. It all has to do with the manage not being pro-union enough. [[Even though a significant number of the hotel employees came to the meeting to support the proposal and manager).

And the thing is, Detroit could really use this new tower. Yes, it is nothing great architecturally, but Detroit actually really needs a few more big box chain hotel buildings [[blah yes, but necessary). All the botique hotels are great, and are neat to have. But business travelers often need to standard big chain hotel, and Detroit is woefully behind most other cities in that regard.


Detroit needs the tower, and instead we get a council power play. Thanks kids.

[Towne Cluber]

Well, clouncil did it again. Can’t decide if this is a Trumpish show off my power by clouncil, or a case of kickbacks not being met.

Unfortunately, it’s probably both.

[hybridy]

Well, clouncil did it again. Can’t decide if this is a Trumpish show off my power by clouncil, or a case of kickbacks not being met. Sad to see either way. I was really hoping that post Kevin Orr the whole Clouncil situation would go away. Clearly wishful thinking.

perhaps a source or some context could help

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...er/1270129002/

Opposing council members did not express any issue with the proposed structure itself, but rather room conditions in the existing building, employee pay and the hotel owner’s failure to sign a neutrality agreement acknowledging the workers’ rights to form a union.

Meanwhile, hotel representatives say they’re frustrated but plan to keep fighting to build the 28-story, 500-bed tower at the corner of Washington and Jefferson in the downtown.

“I support employment. I support good customer service…” said Council President Brenda Jones prior to the 2-6 vote. “But what I do not support is problems within a hotel where I receive calls from out-of-state visitors that are here who feel that the hotel is a convention hotel, and that they experience a lot of problems … the rooms inside the hotel. Not with the employment, not with the customer service."

In 2015, 80 workers rejected forming a union while 15 were in favor, Sabbagh said. He said the hotel’s ownership group is not opposed to unions, and the hotel does have one, Local 324, International Union of Operating Engineers, which represents eight maintenance workers. The hotel just signed a renegotiated contract for three years.“They chose to be represented, and we support them 100 percent,” he said. “We support our current staff now.”

Another issue raised Tuesday was the average worker pay at the hotel. Sabbagh said that pay varies based on position with the average being $14 an hour. The City Council has expressed its support for a $15-an-hour minimum for city workers.

Ayers said the issue for her is not about unionizing workers. Ayers is a former hospitality worker who has been a bartender, waited and bussed tables and washed dishes.

"What I want is to make sure that the standard that has been created here is one that whether or not you have a union card, you get to participate in having an environment that nurtures those beliefs that there should be a standard," she said.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-es...ne-plaza-tower

[BankruptcyGuy]

This is beyond dumb. This is one of the behaviors that got Detroit into trouble in the first place. "Poor customer service"? C'mon. Detroit, you should do better in your choice of representatives.

[3WC]

The Council are for the most part semi-intelligent at best, venal and crooked at worst.

It is a shame that Detroit's potential is thwarted by those know-nothing, political hacks.

Who's to blame? The functionally illiterate who elect those yo-yos.

Despite the best efforts of Dan Gilbert - heroic efforts - and because of its consistently poor governance up to and including Duggan, Detroit will always be a second rate city, or worse.

[Mikefive]

The Council are for the most part semi-intelligent at best, venal and crooked at worst.

It is a shame that Detroit's potential is thwarted by those know-nothing, political hacks.

Who's to blame? The functionally illiterate who elect those yo-yos.

Despite the best efforts of Dan Gilbert - heroic efforts - and because of its consistently poor governance up to and including Duggan, Detroit will always be a second rate city, or worse.

I don't understand how this is the city council's fault when it was clear from those that worked there and did business there that they weren't in a position to expand.

[Dexlin]

This council is one of the more educated in the region. Like disagree with their decisions, but this lazy-ass bashing no matter who is there [[and then constantly bashing the voters are illiterate) smacks of nasty bullsh%t. Spare us.

This council has passed nearly every major development project that's come across their desks. And they reject one do to arguable legitimate concerns and we get the old "corrupt" and "illiterate" and "semi-intelligent" chestnut codewords. Troy's city government has been in perpetual political turmoil for years now, a mayor and council probably implicated in a bribery scandal, a [[now former) city manager beating up his bootycall in the middle of a city street in sight and view of passerbys, etc. Corrupt? You bet your sweet ass. And what do you hear, here? Crickets. But, the city has money, so I guess it's all right, right?

Do better with your criticisms, and stop showing your thinly veiled racist asses to the public, please. Be better people. #BeBest. Thanks.

[JBMcB]

“I support employment. I support good customer service…” said Council President Brenda Jones prior to the 2-6 vote. “But what I do not support is problems within a hotel where I receive calls from out-of-state visitors that are here who feel that the hotel is a convention hotel, and that they experience a lot of problems … the rooms inside the hotel. Not with the employment, not with the customer service."

So someone traveled in to Detroit from out of state, had a bad experience at a hotel, and *called the city council president to complain?!?* This doesn't even begin to make sense.

If they were talking about a hotel like the Roberts Riverwalk I'd understand - they get terrible reviews on every site. The Crowne Plaza gets good reviews on most sites - usually between 3 and 4 stars.

No, something else is going on here.

[Honky Tonk]

So someone traveled in to Detroit from out of state, had a bad experience at a hotel, and *called the city council president to complain?!?* This doesn't even begin to make sense.

If they were talking about a hotel like the Roberts Riverwalk I'd understand - they get terrible reviews on every site. The Crowne Plaza gets good reviews on most sites - usually between 3 and 4 stars.

No, something else is going on here.

It seems to me the DCC should stay out of the wage increase and sanitation business. If there is as big of a problem with bed bugs, as claimed, COD has inspectors that should be sent in and the situation investigated and dealt with accordingly. The hotel pays what it pays, here's the job, take it or leave it. If no one takes it, or there's a huge turnover, wages will adjust accordingly. Neither of the two concerns has anything to do with additional construction. The DCC is overstepping their bounds here.

[Atticus]

This council is one of the more educated in the region. Like disagree with their decisions, but this lazy-ass bashing no matter who is there [[and then constantly bashing the voters are illiterate) smacks of nasty bullsh%t. Spare us.

This council has passed nearly every major development project that's come across their desks. And they reject one do to arguable legitimate concerns and we get the old "corrupt" and "illiterate" and "semi-intelligent" chestnut codewords. Troy's city government has been in perpetual political turmoil for years now, a mayor and council probably implicated in a bribery scandal, a [[now former) city manager beating up his bootycall in the middle of a city street in sight and view of passerbys, etc. Corrupt? You bet your sweet ass. And what do you hear, here? Crickets. But, the city has money, so I guess it's all right, right?

Do better with your criticisms, and stop showing your thinly veiled racist asses to the public, please. Be better people. #BeBest. Thanks.

The rightful blasting of Detroit’s city council in this case has nothing to do with Troy or race. If it makes you feel any better, I can say the corruption/idiocy is bad in Troy too. But again, Troy has nothing to do with the Crowne Plaza tower 2.

The problem is that Detroit City Council has on multiple occasions denied a new hotel tower that 1) serves a needed purpose and 2) is being financed 100% with private dollars. Assuming it meets zoning requirements, this should be a rubber stamp approval in any city unless it is demonstrated that the structure will somehow harm the neighborhood.

The fact that city council has provided no legitimate reason for denial suggests something foul is going on with council. That has nothing to do whatsoever with the race of the council, and I [[and others) would be making that exact same complaint if a council of any skin color made that same decision.

[3WC]

The second tower was part of the original plan for the site and was approved by the City. However, the market changed and the family that built it decided to forego the second tower for economic reasons.

Approvals should be granted where the project satisfies all zoning and construction code requirements. The Council has no authority to social engineer a project [[God save us) by imposing union hiring, marketing or other business conditions on a developer. The market takes care of those things.

In my opinion, the council members could never hold down real jobs in the private sector and only survive by knowing all the magic words needed to get elected in Detroit, and feeding at the public trough.

[dtowncitylover]

In my opinion, the council members could never hold down real jobs in the private sector and only survive by knowing all the magic words needed to get elected in Detroit, and feeding at the public trough.

A disgusting broad opinion based on nothing. It's this kind of thinking that leads us to anti-government sentiment and wrongful assumptions that only the private sector is "worthy" of working for.

I don't have much to say about this project. I do keep thinking however that if a homeowner whose current house is in disrepair and needs fixing, one would be cautious and alarmed if they went out and bought themselves a second house.

[Richard]

Depends on the numbers,why close and suffer revenue loss when you can build a new tower and continue business uninterrupted while the other one is renovated afterwards.

Common sense dictates that revenue streams drop in a hotel that needs repairs,so it would be in the best interests to renovate.

The one that says it was like a convention center atmosphere gets me,that is part of a large hotels revenue stream,large bookings bring tourists,tourists bring dollars to the economy as a direct impact.

I agree that this is way out of line,managed growth is one thing dictated growth is a whole different ball game,but you see why it is hard for the city to attract outside investment,if you are not in that click it is not worth the hassle.

[313WX]

So if Detroit is in fact facing a severe hotel shortage, why aren't a ton of outside developers rushing in to meet this demand, like what's happening in Nashville?

https://www.tennessean.com/story/mon...on/1039853001/

"...More than 85 hotel properties with more than 15,000 rooms are in all phases of planning and construction..."

[iheartthed]

Approvals should be granted where the project satisfies all zoning and construction code requirements. The Council has no authority to social engineer a project [[God save us) by imposing union hiring, marketing or other business conditions on a developer. The market takes care of those things.

Council does have the authority and they just demonstrated that they have that authority. And it is fairly standard practice for big cities to impose union and other social requirements on construction projects.

I think council cited reasonable grievances with this particular business owner, but the process just seems arbitrary. The city should have a standardized approval process for development projects in the city of Detroit, which the city council should craft, and that should be it. This project could've similarly been denied under a process like that for the developer being out of compliance with city policies.

[bust]

313WX, Sorry to nitpick, but do you realize you're comparing an apple [[Detroit) to a bushel of apples [[Nashville)?

Nashville city limits includes all its suburbs, and then some. It's 526 square miles. Detroit is 143 square miles. For an apples to apples comparison you'd have to compare Nashville to a metropolitan Detroit area stretching from Flat Rock to Howell to New Baltimore.

There are roughly 42,000 hotel rooms in Nashville's 14 county statistical area. That area extends 7,484 square miles. Detroit's CSA extends from the Ohio border south west of Adrian to Lexington, and is still only 5,814 square miles. I have no idea how many hotel rooms exist in that area, but in 2015 there were roughly 41,000 in an area oh, I don't know, maybe half the size of Detroit's CSA, and one third the size of Nashville's. If Detroit's CSA were as big as Nashville's it would probably stretch past Jackson, over to Lansing, and up to Saginaw. And I guarantee it has tens of thousands more hotel rooms than the 42,000 in Nashville's CSA.

Also, note the word "planning", because that's what your article counts. It also admits they are not all likely to be carried out. By the same measure you'd have to still count the Crown Plaza's second tower, and many others "planned" for Detroit.

But I agree with the criticism of the City Council members who voted down the 2nd tower. From the outside it sure seems it was intended to strongarm the hotel to unionize, against the wishes even of most employees. That should never happen, and if it did, it came at the sacrifice of the jobs, career advancement opportunities, and city revenue an expanded hotel would have offered, and was a boneheaded move.

[313WX]

313WX, Sorry to nitpick....

You still didn't answer my question.

I'll repeat: So if Detroit is in fact facing a severe hotel shortage, why aren't a ton of outside developers rushing in to meet this demand?

[softailrider]

For at least 20 years before the last renovation, the Ponchatrain was always known as being a complete and utter dump. If the situation at that property has drifted downhill again, it wouldn’t surprise me at all.

[iheartthed]

You still didn't answer my question.

I'll repeat: So if Detroit is in fact facing a severe hotel shortage, why aren't a ton of outside developers rushing in to meet this demand?

There are a few hotels being built now [[Shinola, West Elm, Element).

I wouldn't call it a "severe shortage" but Detroit's lack of hotel room inventory is holding it back from competing for larger conventions. But hotel rates in downtown Detroit can be fairly expensive now, sometimes even rivaling the rates in top tier cities, so I wouldn't be surprised to see plans materialize in the next couple of years for a few more.

[bust]

You still didn't answer my question.

I'll repeat: So if Detroit is in fact facing a severe hotel shortage, why aren't a ton of outside developers rushing in to meet this demand?

This is not my area of expertise, but I think it has to do with the large supply of hotel rooms that exist the suburbs. If you look at the Crain's article I referenced for the 2015 Detroit hotel stats, of the 41,000 rooms counted, the vast majority are outside of Detroit. Likewise the jobs. And the residents... Heck, so is Detroit's zoo. Sprawl is a huge problem in Detroit, and I have often complained about it here. Downtown needs more hotels, but there are only a few major hotel networks, and they already have a lot of rooms in the burbs. Backing that up, so many of the hotels that have recently opened in Detroit are independent or are run by smaller chains that aren't already so committed to the suburbs.

But I'm open to other ideas.

[313WX]

This is not my area of expertise, but I think it has to do with the large supply of hotel rooms that exist the suburbs. If you look at the Crain's article I referenced for the 2015 Detroit hotel stats, of the 41,000 rooms counted, the vast majority are outside of Detroit. Likewise the jobs. And the residents... Heck, so is Detroit's zoo. Sprawl is a huge problem in Detroit, and I have often complained about it here. Downtown needs more hotels, but there are only a few major hotel networks, and they already have a lot of rooms in the burbs. Backing that up, so many of the hotels that have recently opened in Detroit are independent or are run by smaller chains that aren't already so committed to the suburbs.

But I'm open to other ideas.

The number of hotel rooms in the suburb shouldn't have any bearing on the demand for hotels in the downtown market.

That's like saying grocery stores won't open in the city because they are so many in the suburbs. That has nothing to do with it.

[313WX]

There are a few hotels being built now [[Shinola, West Elm, Element).

Andre Spivey made the point that boutique hotels simply can't handle the large groups of visitors that would come with conventions and other major events.

Nashville in comparison is getting the following [[all high rises with hundreds of rooms):

*Hyatt Regency
*Four Seasons
*W Hotel
*Drury Plaza
*Intercontential Hotels [[possibly)

As well as a plethora of "middle of road" convention-friendly hotels:

*AC / Residence Inn / SpringHill Suites
*Tru / Home2Suites
*Hyatt House
*Virgin Hotel

And as far as places completed since 2011:

*Omni Hotel
*J.W. Marriott
*Hyatt Place

And that's all in addition to the boutique hotels they're also getting [[The Joseph, Margaritaville, Moxy, etc.).

[iheartthed]

Andre Spivey made the point that boutique hotels simply can't handle the large groups of visitors that would come with conventions and other major events.

Nashville in comparison is getting the following [[all high rises with hundreds of rooms):

*Hyatt Regency
*Four Seasons
*W Hotel
*Drury Plaza
*Intercontential Hotels [[possibly)

As well as a plethora of "middle of road" convention-friendly hotels:

*AC / Residence Inn / SpringHill Suites
*Tru / Home2Suites
*Hyatt House
*Virgin Hotel

And as far as places completed since 2011:

*Omni Hotel
*J.W. Marriott
*Hyatt Place

And that's all in addition to the boutique hotels they're also getting [[The Joseph, Margaritaville, Moxy, etc.).

Free market or incentive driven?

Indianapolis has a bunch of hotel chains too that they somehow convinced to build around Lucas Oil Stadium so they could host the Super Bowl and compete for conventions.