The Kids That Are No More Over The Gun That Wasn't.

[Meddle]

"A police supervisor reported that he tried to call off a pursuit before it ended in tragedy, but was unsuccessful, Detroit Police Chief James Craig said today.

The chase -- which, police said, involved a parole absconder, his passenger and three special operations officers riding in a police vehicle -- resulted in two small children being killed and three critically injured.

Craig said police are now evaluating whether the department's vehicular pursuit policy was followed.

Craig said the officers reported that, before the pursuit, they saw someone in the car with a gun."

He said no gun has been found.[/QUOTE]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...hood/29265749/

[Meddle]

Aside from everything else, that's one of the most poorly written stories I've tried to read in a while. It's all over the place. No continuity. Almost as if a bunch of random paragraphs were pasted without thought.

[Scottathew]

I'm sure there are people that will disagree with me, but I heap mounds and mounds of blame on parole absconder, Lorenzo Harris, that drove his car into the kids in an attempt to be impervious to consequences for his previous actions.

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

This is a terrible tragedy, the cause of human scum, and my thoughts are with the families that aren't whole tonight. I can't imagine having to go through what they're going through.

Lorenzo Harris, f*** you.

[Gpwrangler]

I'm sure there are people that will disagree with me, but I heap mounds and mounds of blame on parole absconder, Lorenzo Harris, that drove his car into the kids in an attempt to be impervious to consequences for his previous actions.

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

This is a terrible tragedy, the cause of human scum, and my thoughts are with the families that aren't whole tonight. I can't imagine having to go through what they're going through.

Lorenzo Harris, f*** you.

Back in the day you stopped for the cops or got rammed or worse. And no one blamed anyone but you. What a fucked up city this has become.

[iheartthed]

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

Of course the guy who ran from the cops is ultimately at fault. But we don't rely on criminals to make decisions in the best interest of public safety...

[Honky Tonk]

I'm sure there are people that will disagree with me, but I heap mounds and mounds of blame on parole absconder, Lorenzo Harris, that drove his car into the kids in an attempt to be impervious to consequences for his previous actions.

We should certainly also review police policy and make sure that they're proper. However, keep in mind that if we have a policy that police won't chase criminals, then the criminals need only to do you harm, and then run, and they're untouchable.

This is a terrible tragedy, the cause of human scum, and my thoughts are with the families that aren't whole tonight. I can't imagine having to go through what they're going through.

Lorenzo Harris, f*** you.

+5! A few threads back, people are pissing and moaning about the DPD not doing anything about crime, now their shifting the blame to the DPD. What's the message here? Hit the gas for a few blocks and you're scott-free? My heart goes out to the innocent children and their families. Look this asshole up, throw the key away, and sell the effin' car for scrap.

[cla1945]

48307, I don't disagree at all. All the blame goes to the perp.

[rjlj]

Agreed……...

48307, I don't disagree at all. All the blame goes to the perp.

[Hypestyles]

Totally nuts. Another reason I have to go. no safety. anywhere.

[gvidas]

This is one of the saddest stories I've heard in a while.

I was under the impression that national best practices on car chases has been, for a while now, to de-escalate if at all possible. Follow them with a helicopter and make the arrest later, etc, because high speed car chases are very dangerous.

It's worth noting that earlier the same day MSP had a very dramatic chase in Detroit. It ended with officers ramming the chased car off the road and apprehending everyone without injury. Check out the video, it's pretty impressive. I'm wondering if the DPD officers involved wanted some of that hero sauce.

[Honky Tonk]

This is one of the saddest stories I've heard in a while.

I was under the impression that national best practices on car chases has been, for a while now, to de-escalate if at all possible. Follow them with a helicopter and make the arrest later, etc, because high speed car chases are very dangerous.

It's worth noting that earlier the same day MSP had a very dramatic chase in Detroit. It ended with officers ramming the chased car off the road and apprehending everyone without injury. Check out the video, it's pretty impressive. I'm wondering if the DPD officers involved wanted some of that hero sauce.

I thought policy was to call in Power Rangers and Pixies to magically whisk perps to jail.

[Wesley Mouch]

I thought policy was to call in Power Rangers and Pixies to magically whisk perps to jail.

Thanks for making me laugh on a sad thread.

Assuming there isn't more to the story, I'm glad these cops engaged and were working to help Detroit and her citizens. Sad that it turned out as it did.

[313WX]

This is one of the saddest stories I've heard in a while.

I was under the impression that national best practices on car chases has been, for a while now, to de-escalate if at all possible. Follow them with a helicopter and make the arrest later, etc, because high speed car chases are very dangerous.

It's worth noting that earlier the same day MSP had a very dramatic chase in Detroit. It ended with officers ramming the chased car off the road and apprehending everyone without injury. Check out the video, it's pretty impressive. I'm wondering if the DPD officers involved wanted some of that hero sauce.

Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

That said, I do have a concern no one [[for whatever reason) has raised. I agree the police were ultimately in the right and doing their job. But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

[Meddle]

But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

For one thing, it wasn't a 'major chase' despite having major consequences. I'm not even sure it qualified as a chase at all. It has taken me longer than 75 seconds to type this post. Is 75 seconds even time to initiate, declare by radio, etc.?

Or is the 75 seconds in error? Were they 'chasing' for some time before calling it in?

The basic question is the reason. They 'thought' they had a gun. How many citizens are killed in this country every year for just that reason without a gun ever being found?

How can a passing car even see inside a Camaro? All you can see is the occupants' heads.

[Baselinepunk]

Any chance the gun could have been throw out of the car while traveling at such a high rate of speed and the cops not seeing it being thrown?

With Henderson running the ship, you just can't trust the Freep anymore for any time of quality journalism. They've lost all credibility when they endorsed Dick Snyder, twice, and some of the other "journalists" are nothing but fucking amateurs writing like unpaid interns.

I mean for fucking crying out loud!

Can we get some real journalists in this town?!?!

Do they even exist anymore?

The JOA really screwed this City, bad.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

For one thing, it wasn't a 'major chase' despite having major consequences. I'm not even sure it qualified as a chase at all. It has taken me longer than 75 seconds to type this post. Is 75 seconds even time to initiate, declare by radio, etc.?

Or is the 75 seconds in error? Were they 'chasing' for some time before calling it in?

The basic question is the reason. They 'thought' they had a gun. How many citizens are killed in this country every year for just that reason without a gun ever being found?

How can a passing car even see inside a Camaro? All you can see is the occupants' heads.

Good call...Camaro's have very low roof lines, so maybe the officers thought they saw a gun and really didn't. Tragic circumstance all around. I feel for the families of those innocent kids, just playing in their yard.

[gvidas]

+5! A few threads back, people are pissing and moaning about the DPD not doing anything about crime, now their shifting the blame to the DPD. What's the message here? Hit the gas for a few blocks and you're scott-free? My heart goes out to the innocent children and their families. Look this asshole up, throw the key away, and sell the effin' car for scrap.

...

I thought policy was to call in Power Rangers and Pixies to magically whisk perps to jail.

I think it's important to hold law enforcement to a high standard. We give them a lot of power, and should expect them to be responsible with it. But more and better police doesn't directly result in less crime. We need a full court press, with better education, better jobs, etc -- better prospects in general.

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means.

Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

We got an ex-military helicopter thru a federal grant in 2012, but it sat idle for a few years because it wasn't clear who was going to pay to maintain it [[and who was going to fly it.) I've heard anecdotally that it is in service, altho intermittently.

Also, Michigan State Police has a helicopter based here, which is used in a collaborative fashion with DPD.

[Honky Tonk]

I think it's important to hold law enforcement to a high standard. We give them a lot of power, and should expect them to be responsible with it. But more and better police doesn't directly result in less crime. We need a full court press, with better education, better jobs, etc -- better prospects in general.

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means.



We got an ex-military helicopter thru a federal grant in 2012, but it sat idle for a few years because it wasn't clear who was going to pay to maintain it [[and who was going to fly it.) I've heard anecdotally that it is in service, altho intermittently.

Also, Michigan State Police has a helicopter based here, which is used in a collaborative fashion with DPD.

Unless you plan on keeping the chopper up in the air 24/7, someone has got to stay on top of the perp, to let the chopper know where he's @, so the chopper can then take over. Time will pass by the time they get the call, get the chopper up into the air, and to the spot it's needed.

[Scottathew]

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means.

You won't get them eventually. If you change the rules that if all you have to do is speed away to avoid prosecution, then that's what will happen again and again. Crime will increase as consequences decrease.

Letting the crooks go is bad for all of us.

Keep in mind that it was Lorenzo Harris that killed those kids, not the police. It was Lorenzo Harris' actions. Lorenzo Harris can rot in jail for the rest of his natural life.

[cla1945]

If you have a license plate # [[either thru dash cam footage or automatic license plate readers), why engage in a dangerous chase? You'll get them eventually. The ends don't justify the means
.

These thugs don't use their own cars while robbing, raping, or shooting people; they use stolen cars that are at their disposal whenever they decide to take it, so having a license number is totally redundant.

[firstandten]

Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

That said, I do have a concern no one [[for whatever reason) has raised. I agree the police were ultimately in the right and doing their job. But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

We really don't get all of the information from the DPD, however it may be possible that if the police really saw a gun if could be indicative of a gang/drug beef going on in that area in which they felt something bad was getting ready to happen. The reason I say that is that I heard that the murder rate has gone up in the city after a downward trend. The increase may be insignificant statistically or it could indicate a drug war going on.

[313WX]

We really don't get all of the information from the DPD, however it may be possible that if the police really saw a gun if could be indicative of a gang/drug beef going on in that area in which they felt something bad was getting ready to happen. The reason I say that is that I heard that the murder rate has gone up in the city after a downward trend. The increase may be insignificant statistically or it could indicate a drug war going on.

As far whether there was any indication of a gang/drug beef, the last I checked, in America, an officer can not arrest someone BEFORE a crime is committed, unless there's enough probable cause to warrant the arrest.

Now true, it was the driver's responsibility to stop when the police turned of their sirens instead of speeding off [[and he obviously did so because he was parolee). And yes, there's no question the kids were killed because of his wreckless driving.

That said, here is DPD's policy on chases:

“Members involved in a pursuit must question whether the seriousness of the violation warrants continuation of the pursuit. A pursuit shall be discontinued when, in the judgment of the primary unit, there is a clear and present danger to the public which outweighs the need for immediate apprehension of the violator.

Officers must keep in mind that a vehicle pursuit has the same potential for serious injury or death as the use of fatal force. . . .Officers must place the protection of human life above all other considerations.”

What bothers me the most is we still can't even get the police officers in this town to respond to home burglaries or carjackings in a reasonable time [[crime that HAVE actually been committed), yet in this instance we see the same police going out of their way to pursue what may not have been for a crime that was committed, as far as the police officers knew admittedly knew before beginning the pursuit.

[softailrider]

We really don't get all of the information from the DPD, however it may be possible that if the police really saw a gun if could be indicative of a gang/drug beef going on in that area in which they felt something bad was getting ready to happen. The reason I say that is that I heard that the murder rate has gone up in the city after a downward trend. The increase may be insignificant statistically or it could indicate a drug war going on.

There's been a drug war going on for decades. I was never aware of any let up as far as that goes.

[Wesley Mouch]

Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

That said, I do have a concern no one [[for whatever reason) has raised. I agree the police were ultimately in the right and doing their job. But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

You don't know in advance that its gonna be a 'major' chase w/ the suspect mowing down children.

Do you suggest we give gun-toting drivers/passengers as free pass? If not, what is the standard? Do you only chase up to 40mph? And how would you feel when the suspect kills someone with that gun? Better?

[Dan Wesson]

Totally nuts. Another reason I have to go. no safety. anywhere.

Been there done that, came to that same conclusion years ago. Tough and spooky at first. Today... absolutely no regrets.