Michigan Theocracy

[Honky Tonk]

All marriage should be entered into as civil.contracts and registered as such by the State . If the couple wishes to pursue a religious ceremony after the civil contract, they are free to do. Eliminates any religious objection to a marriage. This format us used throughout the world.

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference.

[aj3647]

If Muslims pulled the exact same shit that Christians are currently doing under the guise of "religious freedom", the same people defending it now would be foaming at the mouth about "SHARIA LAW!!!" and reaching for guns.

[bailey]

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference.

and bound up in that is the right of the people to be free from religion. In no way does it grant the government the right to impose one religion on us all.

[Wesley Mouch]

and bound up in that is the right of the people to be free from religion. In no way does it grant the government the right to impose one religion on us all.

Freedom from religion includes the freedom to say 'no' to participation in providing services to gay weddings for some. Is this a freedom you can accept [[for things that are not public accommodations, where I think we all agree that discrimination is almost never permitted).

[Baselinepunk]

"Freedom from religion includes the freedom to say 'no' to participation in providing services to gay weddings for some."

Wrong.

That's an example of supposed "religious freedom" -- the "freedom" to say "no" based upon one's faith-based/cult practices.

What's completely stupid about all of this:

When it comes down to money; I bet that most of the folks who have a problem with "gay marriage" will willingly accept cash dollars for that cake they made. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks -- and this "religious freedom" stuff peddled around by those stuck in the 20th century, is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever seen.

[Honky Tonk]

and bound up in that is the right of the people to be free from religion. In no way does it grant the government the right to impose one religion on us all.

Exactly, nor does it grant the Government the right to impose their ideals over the right to worship or adhere to a religious sect.

[313WX]

"Freedom from religion includes the freedom to say 'no' to participation in providing services to gay weddings for some."

Wrong.

That's an example of supposed "religious freedom" -- the "freedom" to say "no" based upon one's faith-based/cult practices.

What's completely stupid about all of this:

When it comes down to money; I bet that most of the folks who have a problem with "gay marriage" will willingly accept cash dollars for that cake they made. In the end, money talks and bullshit walks -- and this "religious freedom" stuff peddled around by those stuck in the 20th century, is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever seen.

Very true. I bet Pat Robertson forgot all about the good word of the lord [[Luke 12:15 and 1 Corinthians 6:10 for starters) when launching the Christian Broadcasting Network and he began making money hand over fist.

[bailey]

Freedom from religion includes the freedom to say 'no' to participation in providing services to gay weddings for some. Is this a freedom you can accept [[for things that are not public accommodations, where I think we all agree that discrimination is almost never permitted).

Your statement is a nonsequitor. catering a gay wedding is not participating in a gay marriage. selling a wrench to gay person is not participating in a gay lifestyle. renting a room in your B&B to gay people is not participating in gay sex.

[bailey]

Exactly, nor does it grant the Government the right to impose their ideals over the right to worship or adhere to a religious sect.

When the government is handing out the tax payer money, it gets to decide what strings come with it. If you can't serve everyone because your religious beliefs preclude it, perhaps you shouldn't be asking everyone to pay for your service with their tax dollars?

[Wesley Mouch]

When the government is handing out the tax payer money, it gets to decide what strings come with it. If you can't serve everyone because your religious beliefs preclude it, perhaps you shouldn't be asking everyone to pay for your service with their tax dollars?

I agree. The government can set reasonable rules. Yet it remains unwise to use the governments rule-making power to oppress those who don't agree with her.

The current rules are good enough. You cannot discriminate if you offer a public accommodation. But you can discriminate in private transactions. Why should gay caterers be required to cater Koch Brothers parties? This has nothing to do with discrimination. It has to do with freedom.

[aj3647]

The current rules are good enough. You cannot discriminate if you offer a public accommodation. But you can discriminate in private transactions. Why should gay caterers be required to cater Koch Brothers parties? This has nothing to do with discrimination. It has to do with freedom.

You've already indicated in prior posts that you support the "right" of government employees to personally discriminate against taxpayers when it comes to providing government services, yet now it's not OK to discrminate when offering public services? Which is it? You can't even seem to keep your own vile ideology straight.

[Zacha341]

Regarding taxation, aren't church 'property' taxes already assessed/ paid locally? If so, that's not a federal issue [[the local states handles that). Would further taxing be retroactive to the ruling?

With regards to "Tax dollars"? and withholding therein: I remain curious on how do you tax individual[[s) 'donations' to a religious non-profit entity receiving said 'donations'? Be they the Christian Church, a Mosque, Synagogues, the Buddhist or Hindu Temple, etc. or other places of worship and or enlightenment?

[Zacha341]

Setting aside the 'wrench' example, it could be argued that while catering a gay wedding is not 'direct' participation, it IS facilitation -- 'facilitate' as defined:

verb - fa·cil·i·tate \fə-ˈsi-lə-ˌtāt\ : to make [[something) easier : to help cause [[something)
: to help [[something) run more smoothly and effectively

Your statement is a nonsequitor. catering a gay wedding is not participating in a gay marriage. selling a wrench to gay person is not participating in a gay lifestyle. renting a room in your B&B to gay people is not participating in gay sex.

[Wesley Mouch]

You've already indicated in prior posts that you support the "right" of government employees to personally discriminate against taxpayers when it comes to providing government services, yet now it's not OK to discrminate when offering public services? Which is it? You can't even seem to keep your own vile ideology straight.

My 'vile' ideology:

Government should provide services to citizens without discrimination.

Government should provide services to citizens who disagree with her on issues, so long as the service is being provided. So its OK to fund an lesbian-only adoption agency that provides services only to lesbian families wanting to adopt. The public interest is in having children adopted into good homes. That this agency discriminates against gay or straight families does not bother me. Adoptions good. Its OK to fund public good even if the recipient of public funding holds distasteful opinions or 'discriminates'.

This assumes, of course, that the funding is openly available as well to other agencies to provide services to other constituencies.

[G-DDT]

It would be a shame if we lived in a city where almost all the forum poster spew such an overwhelming compounded uneducated and immature intolerance towards all religions [[thus, justifying the feelings that said religions may have that they are being beset upon, backed into a corner, and technically at a standoff against formidable aggressors).

It would also be a shame if we lived in any city in America where the mayor would subpoena pastors for their sermons [[thus, proving government can impose on religion), create an uproar on both sides, backpedal [[because her supporters will say "that's not what it was ever about-nopety no no no siree-we can assure you") from such an obvious mistake, and never get it mentioned on her Wikipedia entry with the same hair-trigger response that was just as well deserved of Conservative politicians who get caught up in their own stupid gaffes and scandals.

The concept of abiding and co-existing isn't just a religious virtue; for I have known atheists who have known how to instinctually live up to and reflect it's principals as if it were second nature.

Why some who think of themselves as real rebels and nonconformists [[for we are all "legends in our own minds"-if only we can force people to get to know us-right? Huh?) can't see how much they are playing up to a populist or conformist status quo on a side that's gotten too unwieldly without examining the usual ramifications that will predictably follow with such fundamentalist [[a word that doesn't have to apply to religion alone) momentum as history has so often recorded is vexing to me.

[ABetterDetroit]

If you listened late at night this week when it got quiet... you could here the rightly deserved hearty laughter all the way from the West Coast from a Detroiter.

The Courser-Gamrat sex scandal with all the awful drama and insanely stupid cover-up attempt looking to use their own hate-filled rhetoric to bail them out of their own personal problems turning Lansing politics into a national joke. Go figure why legislators like this can't even fix the roads.

I've said it before so I'll say it again, Detroit does NOT have a monopoly on bad politicians in this state.

[G-DDT]

I've said it before so I'll say it again, Detroit does NOT have a monopoly on bad politicians in this state.

Right you are! The politicians in Detroit [[we know a few) who've gotten hideously slammed in the press, got slammed over things that would be the equivalent to stealing staplers from the office, when in comparison to the real dark stuff being perpetrated by the white, shadowy dudes really running things.

What's worse, is when you got a politician [[one who's not one of the big boy "teamplayers" and actually made Devil's Night safe) who is being hit with rocks for a marital indiscretion [[such that the wife seemed to already know about), when that politician never paraded "family values" as being a part of their image or platform.

Courser-Gamrat showed that: 1.) Their use of "family values" only made their scandalous situation worse, as it made them hypocrites in the end. 2.) Look at the outrageously, ostentatious and convoluted strategies being employed by guys like Courser. This is no different than the "rat f*cking" the Nixon administration were into. In fact, trying to weave matters to make them look like they are a victim attacked from opponents [[and even former aides) is a lot like Ashley Todd's "branded by Obama supporter" thing, and it's straight up deceit and bearing false witness.http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...tiny/31435681/ I do agree with the Dems-an independent investigation should be made. We already see Snyder protecting guys like Ricard Baird and Herbert Alan Gocha Jr. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_6958090.htmlNote that the 5-hour Energy folks are Republican supporters [[like Coors, Koch, Amway, and other cults etc.)-thus proving that many of the Repubs are poisoners without our best interests in mind.

Don't see enough talk here from folks that Jackson, MI was the birthplace of the Republican party.

[G-DDT]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...tion/31187091/Now this stuff is really misguided "Take Back America" idiocy. I may hate horns painted where they shouldn't, but I also hate halos put on things that don't deserve them.

It's strange when you got "Freethought" Atheists wanting to clarify the fact that our country was not founded by Christians for their agenda, but it's worse when you got Christians trying to justify the Country by putting out erroneous misinformation suggesting how "Godly" our Forefathers were [[Lahaye's Faith of Our Founding Fathers is a fine example-the bad reviews on Amazon tell it quite clearly.http://www.amazon.com/Faith-Our-Foun...owViewpoints=0 I've only seen one library in all my travels to carry such tripe, and that was Bloomington, IL.-which says a lot for how misguided Bloomington truly is.).

One only needs to understand what Masonicism is [[and the works written by such saying that Christianity and Masonicism don't mesh-or at the least, they attempt to lure in Christians and eventually dilute their feelings towards God's interactive influence, Christ's Divinity, or matters regarding taboos). Philadelphia travel guides proudly invite folks to see Washington's Masonic apron [[one of two he owned) at the Masonic library and museum. "In God We Trust" didn't start appearing until 1864, Jefferson attempted to rewrite Christ out of the Bible, Franklin [[y'know? the guy on the One Hundred dollar bill) was far from Christian, and most of those men were slave-owning Deists [[as I was taught in school) and Atheists. Even old Funk & Wagnalls and American Heritage books from the '60s & '70s don't cover up certain aspects of Secret Society influence in this country. But for folks to put out Youtube videos to suggest these guys had a "secret faith" in God [[what happened to being bold and not covering your light under a bushel?-nothing is hidden that won't be revealed, whether you be "elect and privileged"-that is to say, a "good man"or not-that's why the "common faith" of repentant sinners differs greatly from any strained, esoteric scheme man has devised)....

[[Phew). That all being said. It's really sad when you got a Bill O' Reilly/EWTN stylized Catholic from an obscure church in Dearborn trying to organize a "Christian" [["but we'll accept others") but obviously more political [[but they swear it's not) movement. -And to cite some random, generalized passage from the Old Testament....It smacks of Promise Keepers, and when I read the article I felt that there was another more recent socio-political issue [[other than abortion) motivating these guys strategically that's not being addressed in the article, yet sits like a huge elephant in the room.

What I may believe or not is one thing, but how I go about it is another. I may not like things like abortion, but I am not motivated to ever go on a crusade against them, when the other more important ministries [[as explicitly prescribed by the scripture)-things like poverty alleviation, seeking justice, seeking peace, pleading the rights of the workers, and so on-take a greater importance.

[Hypestyles]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...tion/31187091/Now this stuff is really misguided "Take Back America" idiocy. I may hate horns painted where they shouldn't, but I also hate halos put on things that don't deserve them.

Free hot dogs & apple pie, get on down!

[G-DDT]

Free hot dogs & apple pie, get on down!

Yeah...better be Kosher/Halal Beef Franks, or you will really fail to attract the Judaic and Muslim factions you were hoping to draw. Also, it's an affront to vegetarians, despite how much the New Testament [[not to mention the beginning of Daniel) encourages tolerance to other folk's various diets [[Romans 14 being a fine example-though the wording of "weak" is used in an unsound and archaic fashion.).

[Jimaz]

Have a laugh: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Televangelists [[HBO)

• OurLadyOfPerpetualExemption.com

[G-DDT]

Have a laugh: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Televangelists [[HBO)

• OurLadyOfPerpetualExemption.com

He's no Joe Bob Briggs, but he's clearly having himself one humdinger of a devival there, and it's more than just and sacred that he'd whomp a branch of so-called Christianity that really has had it coming for a long time. From Filthy Lucre to Rollicking Larf!

[aj3647]

It would be a shame if we lived in a city where almost all the forum poster spew such an overwhelming compounded uneducated and immature intolerance towards all religions [[thus, justifying the feelings that said religions may have that they are being beset upon, backed into a corner, and technically at a standoff against formidable aggressors).

I hardly think a few harsh words from atheists in any way justifies the persecution complex that so many Christians have in this country. Target wishes its customers "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas, and Fox News declares it a "War on Christmas." That's what qualifies as persecution to Christians in America.

[Zacha341]

Ha-aah! That video actually had some funny moments! I'm for not so thin-skinned to not check it out, as he does point out some of the folly and materialistic extravagant nonsense that goes on in that form of church/ ministry - specifically those practicing the prosperity doctrine as the examples show.

The rub for me is that A. some take from this parody the narrative that this is normative and the embodiment all Christian churches. Untrue! And/ or B. the assumption that there's not criticism and a move to correct this deviation from within the faith against those plying these kinds of activities. There is!

I'd never set foot in a church or be involved in any 'ministry' pushing the 'prosperity gospel'. Copeland, and others are an easy mark for ridicule of the Christian church at large and the faith in general. But in fact not all Christians participate in, or endorse this kind of church or teachings.

[Zacha341]

Ditch Fox on that - they don't OWN that issue - they're in the ratings game just like the other news empires. Sometimes they get it right, sometime they don't.

Instead ask an average Detroiter, not 'tea-party-member, fox-only-watchin', but the man or woman on the street, coworker, etc. as to how they feel being a Christian these days.

You might find the opinion a bit varied, and not necessarily partisan 'tethered'.

I do try to keep an eye on what is going on in the world abroad re. Christianity. That keeps me grounded to understand what needs to be responded to. And trends to monitor.

I hardly think a few harsh words from atheists in any way justifies the persecution complex that so many Christians have in this country. Target wishes its customers "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas, and Fox News declares it a "War on Christmas." That's what qualifies as persecution to Christians in America.