Astroturfers Disrupting Dingell Town Hall Meeting

[oladub]

Lorax, How many of the attendees at the Dingall conference were not residents of his congressional district? The article mentioned that one organization sent out notices of the meeting to 18,000 people in SE Michigan. Maybe some were not in Dingell's district. The article didn't say. Is there evidence that anyone was paid or that protesters were bussed in from outside of the district? If so, how much and how many? You are the self-procalimed expert here. Provide us with numbers.

myobama.com sent me the following message. -

"Our congressional representatives are back home this month, and they're facing more and more pressure from special interests on health insurance reform. It's critical that we get out there and show them where we stand.

Our representatives are under attack by Washington insiders, insurance companies, and well-financed special interests who don't go a day without spreading lies and stirring up fear. We need to show that we're sick and tired of it, and that we're ready for real change, this year.

Please come to the listening session, and make sure that the most powerful voices in this debate are those calling for real reform, not angrily clamoring for the status quo." -myobama.com

Do you think I should not go because this email may have come from a national organization instead of being produced in my congressional district? Or is it ok to go because the messenger is a reliable Democrat and not some Rethuglican third cousin of a fascist or Dick Cheney? I haven't received any such emails from Rethuglicans by the way.

[vetalalumni]

Lorax, in your litany of Bush's co-conspirators you left off the Easter Bunny and his fascist plan by the dental-industrial complex to over-plant genetically modified corn to create High Fructose Corn Syrup and thereby use it not just on Easter Morning jelly beans but year round in everything from cigarettes to SUV bumpers.

Vile Easter Bunny, murderous cretin disguised as a fluffy bunch of cuteness while hiding a swastika tramp stamp under his tail.

Lorax, misusing words doesn't make things true, it weakens your point, makes you appear to not have an intelligent grasp of concepts and gives a dump truck size load of whup-ass for others to use against you.

And it makes you look dumb. You don't want to look dumb do you? You seem impassioned with you viewpoint, but not having a fundamental grasp of the words you're using flushes all your intentions down the pipes and into an environmentally certified reclamation facility. Is that what you want?

There is nothing, repeat nothing that links folks that want to speak to their representative and fascism. To harp on a linkage between the two is as silly as believing in the Easter Bunny.

Cutesy gnome. Having unloaded a can of whup-ass, how do you now feel? Was your goal accomplished?

[Lorax]

More like a can of Wuss-Ass, as far as I'm concerned.

And since it was directed at me, I guess I can say that.

Without the language restrictions I would have a whole lot more to say, let's just put it that way

[Lorax]

Relax Saul, I would think that someone who got their politcal views from Ted Geisel would be able to find humor in Gnome's Tome's

No problem, Zippo, I can find humor in just about anything- why do you think I take the time to respond to all the Rethuglicans posting here?

[Lorax]

Lorax, How many of the attendees at the Dingall conference were not residents of his congressional district? The article mentioned that one organization sent out notices of the meeting to 18,000 people in SE Michigan. Maybe some were not in Dingell's district. The article didn't say. Is there evidence that anyone was paid or that protesters were bussed in from outside of the district? If so, how much and how many? You are the self-procalimed expert here. Provide us with numbers.

myobama.com sent me the following message. -

"Our congressional representatives are back home this month, and they're facing more and more pressure from special interests on health insurance reform. It's critical that we get out there and show them where we stand.

Our representatives are under attack by Washington insiders, insurance companies, and well-financed special interests who don't go a day without spreading lies and stirring up fear. We need to show that we're sick and tired of it, and that we're ready for real change, this year.

Please come to the listening session, and make sure that the most powerful voices in this debate are those calling for real reform, not angrily clamoring for the status quo." -myobama.com

Do you think I should not go because this email may have come from a national organization instead of being produced in my congressional district? Or is it ok to go because the messenger is a reliable Democrat and not some Rethuglican third cousin of a fascist or Dick Cheney? I haven't received any such emails from Rethuglicans by the way.

I guess you'd have to be on a few Rethuglican Party propaganda mailing lists to get the info, but suffice to say, the organizations supported by the Koch Family are the ones largely responsible for busing, emailing, and organizing these phony outrage protests. See information below:

Koch Family Foundations

Sons Charles G. Koch and David H. Koch run the company as well as Koch Family Foundations, one of the largest single sources of funding for conservative organizations in the United States.

Organizations and think tanks supported by the foundation include Citizens for a Sound Economy, the libertarian Cato Institute, Reason Magazine, the Manhattan Institute, the Heartland Institute, and the Democratic Leadership Council.

David H. Koch ran for president on the Libertarian Party ticket in 1980. Koch money flows thorugh Triad Management Services, an advisory service to conservative donors ongroups and candidates to support.

Cato Institute

Charles G. Koch co-founded the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank based in Washington DC, with Edward H. Crane in 1977.

The Koch brothers also operate the Koch Family Foundations, a major source of funding for conservative and libertarian political causes in the United States, including think tanks such as the Cato Institute. [[Their father helped found the John Birch Society, though neither brother is a member or supporter of the organization.)

Koch Industries also supports Americans for Prosperity, formed as a successor to Citizens for a Sound Economy. Koch Industries and its subsidiaries spent more than $20 million on lobbying in 2008, and $5.6 million in 2009, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan research group.

Americans for Prosperity [[AFP), a section 501[[c)[[4) organization, and Americans for Prosperity Foundation [[AFP Foundation) , a section 501[[c)[[3) organization -- are "committed to educating citizens about economic policy and a return of the federal government to its Constitutional limits."

AFP was one of the lead organizations behind the Tax Day Tea Party protests April 15, 2009.

In mid 2009, Americans for Prosperity launched an advertising and advocacy campaign opposing U.S. health care reform named Patients United Now [1].

http://patientsunitednow.com/

[MCP-001]

Bullshit!

This meeting is for his constituents, anyone else who has trouble with the language of the bill from OUTSIDE his district can contact him in DC at his office.

...

That is kind of hard to do since the House in is recess until early September and the representatives have gone home until then.

The quickest, most efficient way to hear what he had to say and ask for follow up questions if something wasn't clear would be to go and see him last Thursday.

Unfortunately, after watching the videos of the "Town Hall" [[both one & two), it turned out to be nothing more than a sham.

I didn't get from watching them, "Hello. I'm John Dingell. How can I represent you?"

I got instead was, "Now Listen up! I'm John Dingell. This is what I'm going to do whether you like it or not."

Town Hall #1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSL1iS1vRY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRzetMBYDRw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-xWZhldbSs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvdB9APBKtc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srJRGz4O3H0

Town Hall #2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRCzLQvA8M4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n748MSZ-BTw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXdz5tP0taE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcjSZtot1Sw

[gnome]

Seems we all have a lot to look forward to with our new promised health reforms. For those who haven't eaten lately, I suggest you review the link below. Nothing quite like some kitchen table surgery to inspire the sheeple.
http://www.break.com/index/two-girls...st.html?mrr=we

[zitro]

Seems we all have a lot to look forward to with our new promised health reforms. For those who haven't eaten lately, I suggest you review the link below. Nothing quite like some kitchen table surgery to inspire the sheeple.
http://www.break.com/index/two-girls...st.html?mrr=we

That's hilarious!!

[gnome]

Zitro, the whole time I watched that thing, I'm screaming "Oh my God!" in a little girl voice,, "Oh no, stop that, eew, oh my gaud, loook, oh look, Don't look, no no"

I couldn't stop watching. gross. Reminded me of a time I saw guy have a river worm pulled from his eye.

[oladub]

Lorax, I asked you for some numbers to substantiate your allegations. Your response was-

I guess you'd have to be on a few Rethuglican Party propaganda mailing lists to get the info, but suffice to say, the organizations supported by the Koch Family are the ones largely responsible for busing, emailing, and organizing these phony outrage protests.

Are you dodging my questions? You were stating things as facts. I now have to assume that your sources made this up or you are refusing to share what's on your Rethuglican Party propaganda mailing lists with us.

I had a thought about what myobama.com sent me. Let's look again at the wording of the second paragraph.

"Your representatives are under attack by Washington insiders, insurance companies, and well-financed special interests who don't go a day without spreading lies and stirring up fear. We need to show that we're sick and tired of it, and that we're ready for real change, this year."

Isn't the super heated rhetoric found here in myobama,com exactly what you are accusing Republicans of?

[Lorax]

I copied numerous examples of the different organizations spearheading this effort- what about it don't you understand?

If you had taken the time to click on the links for each of the Koch Family allied organizations, you would have seen where they have admitted to backing not only these rallies, but the Teabaggers, and in 2004, the Brooks Brothers Brigades of disaffected Rethuglicans, most of whom went on to work in the Tush Administration.

I know of this personally, since they were deployed at my voting station here in Miami in 2004, intimidating old ladies and African Americans, and Hispanics whose English wasn't very good. I told these fascists to fuck off, and they did. I had to threaten to call the police on them, and since they were outnumbered by a couple hundred largely Democratic voters, they thought the better of it, and beat it.

The quote of mine is taken out of context, you need to include the rest of it- typical Rehtuglican tactic.

The myobama quote is certainly true, and not in the least bit threatening or dictatorial. A real softball, actually. What's so superheated about it? Obama is being labeled a Communist/Fascist Hitler loving baby killer by these freaks of nature, as are the Democratic congressmen & women going home to these town hall meetings.

What numbers are you referring to? The number of right wing protesters? That's anybody's guess- certainly hundreds of them between the most recent rallies- there is videotape of the one in Tampa, the one in Romulus, the one in Virginia, all of which had ranting republicans attending Democratic town hall meetings.

Pull it up on Youtube, or watch the Rachel Maddow show in MSNBC, since she showed all of them- in Technicolor, yet! Wow! All you have to do is turn off Crox News and you'd see so much more of what's really out there!

Perhaps you should do your own research if you're so interested, If you need a personal research assistant, I suggest you hire one.

[Lorax]

Seems we all have a lot to look forward to with our new promised health reforms. For those who haven't eaten lately, I suggest you review the link below. Nothing quite like some kitchen table surgery to inspire the sheeple.
http://www.break.com/index/two-girls...st.html?mrr=we

Believe it or not, I was eating pizza when I saw this. Thanks.

[vetalalumni]

More like a can of Wuss-Ass, as far as I'm concerned.

And since it was directed at me, I guess I can say that.

Without the language restrictions I would have a whole lot more to say, let's just put it that way

It just seems to me that sometimes discussions deteriorate to an unnecessary personal level.

[oladub]

Lorax, I asked in post #53, “How many of the attendees at the Dingall conference were not residents of his congressional district? The article mentioned that one organization sent out notices of the meeting to 18,000 people in SE Michigan. Maybe some were not in Dingell's district. The article didn't say. Is there evidence that anyone was paid or that protesters were bussed in from outside of the district? If so, how much and how many? You are the self-proclaimed expert here. Provide us with numbers.�

It was a question about the Dingell Conference mentioned in your OP. Since then, in this thread, you have brought up racism three times and that you brought up in the fascism more times than I remember. You have claimed that the “vast majority of these people are brainwashed into believing that Obama is the antichrist� and are “basically racist�. Then you went on about some Robert Koch guy who you believe is behind the curtain. You look into peoples' minds and decide what they are thinking. You actually accused someone else of thinking in black and white.

But no, you can't provide any more information about the Dingell meeting that would back up all your assertions that most of the attendees at such meetings were racists, led there by corporatists, or anything else. These are all just Lorax's conjectures. Whether or not this Mr. Koch gave money to Reason Magazine probably little to do with why many or any people showed up.

Again, I am not a Rethuglican. I am a lot further from Bush than you are.In your black and white Republican vs. Democrat paradyne this is probably difficult to comprehend but I see them as flip sides of a coin serving the same masters. Case in point; Bush's Wall Street bailout. If you want to talk about economic fascism; start there.

[ccbatson]

It doesn't matter who the allies with money are...these individuals would not get out and personally involve themselves this passionately if they were merely paid to do so.

The liberal campaign to depict it as such will fail because even the most uninformed observer knows real and genuine passion when they see it.

[Lorax]

Ok, Oladub, here's your numbers:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...n-Hall-Meeting


http://markmaynard.com/?p=5697


If you find the Daily Kos unreliable, we'll try to find more, we know how sensitive you guys are when presented with the truth.

Again, if you watched TV at all that day, you would have gotten alot more info, as I did. The BBC reported on it, as did MSNBC, NBC, CBS, CNN, etc.

Sorry if I can't produce video for your enjoyment, but by the same token, you need to provide some proof that my assertions are not true.

[Gannon]

we know how sensitive you guys are when presented with the truth.

<<snickering snotballs from my nostrils, now I've got to clean my monitor)

[Lorax]

<<snickering snotballs from my nostrils, now I've got to clean my monitor)

Just don't use any Amway products!

No sense giving the Reich any more money!

[oladub]

Ok, Oladub, here's your numbers:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...n-Hall-Meeting

http://markmaynard.com/?p=5697

If you find the Daily Kos unreliable, we'll try to find more, we know how sensitive you guys are when presented with the truth.

Again, if you watched TV at all that day, you would have gotten alot more info, as I did. The BBC reported on it, as did MSNBC, NBC, CBS, CNN, etc.

Sorry if I can't produce video for your enjoyment, but by the same token, you need to provide some proof that my assertions are not true.

I read your articles but couldn't find anything to answer, even roughly, how many of the attendees at the Dingall conference were not residents of his congressional district, any evidence that anyone was paid or that protesters were bussed in from outside of the district. Nor was any proof presented that the vast majority were racists or believed that Obama was the antichrist or was there because of Mr. Koch's donation to the CATO institute - all of which you have been either insinuating or claiming for fact.

Maybe they just don't like President Obama's plans and taxes.

These people were unruly by these accounts. I don't support that. They should save their applause or catcalls until after whomever has had their time speaking. This also applies to college students who sometimes drive speakers off the stage even though I don't remember you getting similarly bent out of shape when neocons like Huckabee or David Horowitz are booed off of stages.

My suggestion is that the tea bag gatherings brought some people together who then realized they weren't alone. These ill mannered town hall gatherings are an extention of the tea party movement where even Republican big spenders were booed off of stages. Viewers watch these events on tv and decide they want to participate. If you want to blame someone, my suggestion would be that the radio and tv coverage of tea parties talked those events up. Since free speech is still allowable, the answer is censorship.

Pam's link was good. The guy was correct that unrest could lead to violence or shootings. A problem with censorship, however, is that it represses freedom of expression which is then forced underground. That eventually leads to revolts and insurrections which are even worse than the scuffles we have seen so far. For that reason, I appreciate the Daily Kos. I embrace the messenger. The more voices the better so we can pick, choose, and blend instead of breeding ideological separatists.

[Lorax]

I read your articles but couldn't find anything to answer, even roughly, how many of the attendees at the Dingall conference were not residents of his congressional district, any evidence that anyone was paid or that protesters were bussed in from outside of the district. Nor was any proof presented that the vast majority were racists or believed that Obama was the antichrist or was there because of Mr. Koch's donation to the CATO institute - all of which you have been either insinuating or claiming for fact.

Maybe they just don't like President Obama's plans and taxes.

These people were unruly by these accounts. I don't support that. They should save their applause or catcalls until after whomever has had their time speaking. This also applies to college students who sometimes drive speakers off the stage even though I don't remember you getting similarly bent out of shape when neocons like Huckabee or David Horowitz are booed off of stages.

My suggestion is that the tea bag gatherings brought some people together who then realized they weren't alone. These ill mannered town hall gatherings are an extention of the tea party movement where even Republican big spenders were booed off of stages. Viewers watch these events on tv and decide they want to participate. If you want to blame someone, my suggestion would be that the radio and tv coverage of tea parties talked those events up. Since free speech is still allowable, the answer is censorship.

Pam's link was good. The guy was correct that unrest could lead to violence or shootings. A problem with censorship, however, is that it represses freedom of expression which is then forced underground. That eventually leads to revolts and insurrections which are even worse than the scuffles we have seen so far. For that reason, I appreciate the Daily Kos. I embrace the messenger. The more voices the better so we can pick, choose, and blend instead of breeding ideological separatists.

I guess I give up. You're right, all 265 attendees were from his district, and only 40 were supporters. And the screaming fanatics numbering 225 were 100% residents of the district.

Same must be true in Tampa, in Texas, suburban Virginia as well.

Guess you've just got an overwhelming groundswell of really upset Rethuglicans living in Democratic districts.

All of which just decided to turn up, unprovoked, with no guidance from the multiple organizations admitting to doing this, in addition to Fox news advertising only the Democratic town halls as worthy of disruption.

Amazing how everyone in each city where protests are taking place show up with the same Hitler = Obama posters, "Maobama" T-shirts, "Joker" posters, all well organized, even with like signage in every city where town halls are held, and you have a very real, genuine hatred for all things Obama, when current polling shows only 72% of the public favors health care reform with a public option.

Go figure, I must be so wrong!

[oladub]

Most children believe in Santa. So what?

Wrong again, I don't hate all things Obama. I actually like listening to him when he isn't reading nonsense off the teleprompter and laugh at his jokes. It's nice to have a president that can speak in full sentences again. Obama is smart. He also gets along with some prickly world leaders that Bush was too proud to talk to. I enjoy seeing his family in the White House. I don't want anything to happen to him or Biden would get in.

My basic problem with Obama is that he is bankrupting the country far faster than even Bush and otherwise seems to have skipped the chapter on supply/demand in economics 101. Also, as a Constituional expert, he seems to use his expertise to work around the Constitution. Then again, maybe he missed the segment about the 10th Amendment. The problem with spending the country into a hole, where you are concerned, is that when the dollar declines it won't even buy so many promised government benefits. Eventually, you won't even be able to squeeze enough money out of taxpayers to keep all these government programs going. Clinton's Comptroller General, David Walker, spoke to that. F.E. Hayek explained that as goverment planning fails, government planners next resort to obstructing freedom of speech ,more controls, and expanding their failed progarms to try to make them work. Sorry to ruin the next scene but blaming Bush for everything will get stale.

somewhat related-
"While the bailout, or the “stimulus package� as it is often referred to, is getting good coverage in terms of being portrayed as having revived the economy and is leading the way to the light at the end of the tunnel, key factors are again misrepresented in this situation.
At the end of March of 2009, Bloomberg reported that, “The U.S. government and the Federal Reserve have spent, lent or committed $12.8 trillion, an amount that approaches the value of everything produced in the country last year.� This amount “works out to $42,105 for every man, woman and child in the U.S. and 14 times the $899.8 billion of currency in circulation. The nation’s gross domestic product was $14.2 trillion in 2008.�" -Entering the Greatest Depression in History

[Lorax]

Don't forget, it was Reagan who started us down the road to deficit spending in the modern era, and has been exacerbated by the likes of of both Bushes. Clinton left us with surpluses.

Obama has no choice in the matter, the investor of last resort is the government, and without the massive spending measures, we would be currently carting wheelbarrows full of cash to the grocery store. Not that we won't see a deepening of this depression before it improves.

Also remember, Obama has made few changes in the people who are carrying out his economic policies- many worked for the Bush Administration, not that it's such a great thing, but using those who got us into this mess to help clean it up may yield results yet, we'll see.

My concern is that not enough spending, especially on public works projects has been done to lessen the impact of the jobs being shed by industry.

Obama needs to propose another WPA to start rebuilding our nation's highways, infrastructure such as tunnels, bridges, sewers, seawalls, restoring our national parks, ecological restoration, etc.

This would have a greater impact, faster, but Obama's desire to work in a bipartisan fashion has held this back, and as far as I'm concerned either the Republicans can get on board or be left behind.

[ccbatson]

Yes, Republicans hands are not clean, this is true, but the liberals have made it [[spending) high art.

[gazhekwe]

That is laughable behind the Reagan and Bush x2 credit card style government. Buy now, make your kids and grandkids pay for it. The government has no right to charge us money for the things we get from it. Tsk tsk.

[ccbatson]

In 6 months, Obama has quadrupled the spending and the debt...so much for bashing Bush.