Could Detroit be the next Ferguson or Baltimore?

[aj3647]

Fourth it isn't "murder"; you completely lied about that too. "Murder" is a criminal charge, and no charge had been issued. There is no way to know about a criminal charge prior to completion of the police investigation. Given that the public has no clue about a case prior to release of investigative results, any claims of "murder" and the like are just ignorant, feral hype.

How did I lie? At least one Baltimore police officer is facing a Second-degree murder charge. Six officers arrested and charged, including one for murder. You're an idiot and you don't know what you are talking about. Oh and the coroner ruled his death a homicide, so there's that too.

Third it isn't "stealing rolls of toilet paper" rioters kill people and destroy cities.

Who died in the Baltimore riots? Answer: no one. There were no deaths from the rioters. You brining up the Detroit riots from 50 years ago has no bearing on what happened in Baltimore last week. So while two wrongs don't make a right, I still will not false equivicate that property crime is somehow just as bad or worse as the murder of a human being. It isn't. Stealing from a CVS is objectively not as bad as killing someone. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Second, it isn't "whites" that don't like looters, it's also Hispanics, Asians and everyone else [[and probably most blacks, for that matter).

BHam1982: Self-appointed spokesperson for blacks and Asians.

First, cops don't murder black people. That's a lie.

Well I already told you that Freddie Gray's death was ruled a homicide and at least one cop is facing a murder charge for it. So that's one. And did you forget about Michael Slager executing Walter Scott in South Carolina?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott

Guess what Slager is currently charged with? If you said "murder", you'd be correct! That shit's on video, so I'd like to see you twist that one into something that isn't a cold-blooded execution. And I can cite plenty more examples, but I think I've already proven that YOU are the liar here, not me.

[KJ5]

First, cops don't murder black people. That's a lie.

This person actually wrote this.

[G-DDT]

A lot of what happened to Gray in Baltimore [[a city that was notorious for having to pay out close to 6 million dollars in the last three years to victims of brutality-which, I guess is some kind of admission of guilt and some sense of "reparation"-which obviously doesn't excuse the initial violence http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...timore/391158/) is direct shades of what happened here-http://thefreethoughtproject.com/autopsy-report-victor-white-iiis-alleged-suicide- &
louisiana-police-cover-up/
& http://takepart.com/article/2014/08/...killed-himself The fact you have the coroner working in cahoots is no different then what Oscar Zeta Acosta [[Hunter S. Thompson's lawyer friend) implicated about famous coroner Noguchi with the death of Ruben Salazar.

From failing to release results from reports at the time they said they would, to never explaining all those vehicle stops [[which, by procedure, required reporting), the Baltimore police do "conspire" [[just because the word "conspiracy" is used does not diminish it's truth-yet, it does require quite a bit of weighing and discerning http://www.peaceandfreedom.org/home/...iracy-theories) with each other and other agencies to cover matters up.

I am going to agree with mwilbert on a few points. It is easy to turn folks against folks [[I do believe there was a thread here on DY that asked for proof about C.I.A. involvement in how drugs were being brought into the country-thus, onto the streets, and encouraging rival drug gang involvement behavior-notice how decent rap artists in the '90s were replaced with a prominent glut of "gangsta' rap") just like the Polish kapos in the concentration camps. This is a system that likes to keep folks divided, compartmentalized, and assume that the "powers that be" are divided against themselves and not in collusion [[yeah, whenever scores of prostitutes get killed for long periods of time by some serial killer, the reason action on the part of the authorities was lacking was because "one department couldn't get along with another"-a line we are fed with every cop show from C.S.I., sadly going back to X-Files and Twin Peaks; if anyone wants to debate about prostitutes being "drains on society", I'm of the Christian mindset that every life counts and the "whores"-most likely victims of a impoverished and/or traumatized upbringing-will enter the Kingdom of Heaven before any self-righteous judgers) with each other.

One point of improvement would be to remove the "good ol' boy network" of the F.O.P. We saw their flags behind the Baltimore cops during all the denials. These are the guys who rally to protect each other and hold seminars and workshops that show tricks to each other on what they can get away with [[like when dirty cops came to shut down and shakedown parties in Detroit, they'd all have coverings on the I.D. numbers of their badges https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...8231725AAd4ZwP, or how I'd get pulled over as a wanderer on deserted roads, who claimed they were acting on "calls" from passing motorists who were never present in the last hour and a half.).

[canuck]

Thanks for your smart posts gvidas and GDDT. The testimonial from the young man from Baltimore says it all. Fuck the nonsense denial of racism... It is.systemic. How.else.do.you explain the insane rate of incarceration in the US. Also, GDDt, what you say about the messengers of doom in popular culture designed to isolate AfricanAmerican is pretty relevant to me. It serves a purpose.

[emu steve]

Wolf Blitzer [[CNN) Monday was downright terrible covering the afternoon as the civil disorder began. He was near hysterical. And every minute or two he'd invoke his shock at what was happening to the CVS store [["Where are the police?") as if it White House or the Vatican.

He seemed to forget the distinction between people and property and by people I mean both Freddie Gray and the officers who were out numbered and were being injured.

And this was while being told by a police spokesman about their desire to protect lives [[in this case police who were who at risk from flying bricks, etc.).

He didn't seem to realize it would take time to mobilize the state police and a half day to mobilize the Maryland National Guard and that the city police had other 'hot' spots to keep from blowing up.

[Hermod]

He didn't seem to realize it would take time to mobilize the state police and a half day to mobilize the Maryland National Guard and that the city police had other 'hot' spots to keep from blowing up.

The mayor had a massive army of Baltimore police [[including mounted police and armored cars deployed in multiple ranks around city hall. She wasn't going to allow rioters to destroy that [[or her).

[Zacha341]

Yeah we ended up selective destruction I suppose.

[canuck]

Hermod / The mayor had a massive army of Baltimore police [[including mounted police and armored cars deployed in multiple ranks around city hall. She wasn't going to allow rioters to destroy that [[or her).

Yeah we ended up selective destruction I suppose.

I was reminded of some selective destruction that happened way back in 1985. Phil-o-delphia.

65 houses burned in a black neighborhood when the black mayor said OK to the Police bombing of one house where a pesky revolutionary group of mostly black folks [[MOVE) were quartered. A sort of Natural selection evolved from that I'm sure. I wonder if they built a CVS in their place...

The mayor was black, I wonder if the Police and Fire Dept had that convenient fact in mind when they let the houses burn to the ground, at least the mayor accepted full responsibility...

[G-DDT]

Taking any life, especially with overwhelming brute force disproportionate to the crime [[even if the suspect mildly resists or flees) is murder. Now, I don't pretend I don't know how the police operate on some aspects. I do know once a pistol is out and aimed, they intend to use it, and they are not trained to incapacitate or disarm with their firearms.

Second, it's a prevailing militant attitude [[especially coming from a city that doesn't just board-up vacant buildings, they brick them up) that caused all of this unrest. I do not excuse such riotous behavior, but I very well can explain where it comes from. I do not feel I have to rehash the murders that have occurred in the last year alone by police acting on excessive force. Yes, there was a racial imbalance in Ferguson if a mostly black region is policed by a mostly white force, or do I have to post the easy to follow report from John Oliver again? [[pay attention between 1:45-6:15-and yes, I include the "not all cops are bad" as a comment of relevance)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A There was also a clear inequality when such incidents like these occur [[which I'm glad is one that got clamped down on)http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...o-kill-inmate/

Having read Christopher Dorner's "manifesto", I wonder what influenced this man most. He said it was police brutality and racial inequality that caused him to square off with the very police [[and although police were his only targets, the media kept insisting that any random person was in danger of being targeted by him) he once worked with. Wikipedia has an interesting bio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christo...gs_and_manhunt, What's not said is that he lived in such places as Florida, Utah, and Oklahoma, which I'm sure would've built up in him a justified sense of racial persecution, while at the same time instilling in him that the only way to go about changing things is through gun-obsessed violence [[the same kind that is being instilled in everyone in this country through violent video games, cop shows, and movies with "vengeance fantasies" as their theme).

I think racial inequality and police brutality are issues that must be acknowledged and addressed in a loud, assertive, unified, and most of all, peaceful manner. We do this through unity, community action, communicating through a variety of channels [[especially outside of the internet), purging the troublemakers, training for passive-resistance, hunger-striking [[in the right context), and if need calls for it in the right context, boycotting [[which has been long overlooked-I assure you far too many Americans have been trained in such a consumerist manner, that the mere idea of boycotting is anathema. Yet, if commercial and corporate structures feel the overwhelming sting of folks failing to support them, they may be goaded to act and influence matters). This all requires constant diligence and vigilance on the part of everyone.

I do not believe in the abolishing of laws. It's structure we still rely on in society. However, it's the things allowed to slip past these laws that are allowing corruption to go unheeded. On a religious note, I'm going to repeat what John the baptist told the police in his day what they should do: be content with your wages, do no violence to any man, and do not falsely accuse anyone. These rules, in themselves, allow quite well an enforcer of the law to do their duty, without giving them occasion to act up.

[Kevgoblue]

Ray. I'm thinking what Wesley was talking about is instances such as the one from Inkster. Where 57 year old Floyd Dent was pulled over for running a stop sign. Officer Melendez [[who had been released from DPD for similar abuse situations) then pulled him out of the car and began a barrage of punches to the head that lasted about a minute. I believe they tazed him as well. The other officer on the scene did not restrain him. As other cars arrived on the scene none of those officers intervened. By the end of the tape there had to be 8 or 9 police officers either particpating in or watching this mans beating.
Afterwards none of the other officers submitted a report conflicting with the official description of the incident. No one disputed him being "in posession" of cocaine. They all let the offending officer's report stand. They were all willing to not only not report the abuse of the offending officer, but to let an innocent man stand in front of the judge and face charges.
Had the press not heard of this and filed a FOIA request he would most likely have a conviction on his record as we speak.

This is the behavior that ordinary citizens view as the Blue Wall of Silence, not you letting your buddy's wife off without writing a traffic ticket.

[SWMAP]

I think that Bill Melendez' past isn't germane here. Sure, he was accused and indicted and tried [[along with 15 other cops from DPD 4th precinct) in Federal Court. But he wasn't convicted of anything. He did leave the DPD. KK was the Mayor and he was pretty hard on them. you wouldn't have stayed either.

I sat in on that trial a lot of days during my lunch hours and saw the witnesses - obvious liars all, with huge love of the attention and drama. They were incoherent, obvious drug users, spoke outlandish lies.
My next-door neighbor, a bi-polar batterer was at that time being cultivated by Ron Scott of the Anti-Abuse Coalition. She had a long history of Assault and Battery herself. She insisted, at Scott's direction on wearing an inflammatory tee shirt in the courtroom that called police officers pigs. the judge asked her to remove and she refused. Finally he had the bailiff haul her out screaming [[later Ron Scott disassociated himself from her - but it tells you the caliber of his adherents).

In the courthouse hallways the prostitutes dripped saliva and danced in stupors while they waited to testify. I can't tell you how unbelievable they were. Suffice it say that after weeks of testimony, none of the first round of officers on trial were found guilty of anything and the Feds dropped the charges against the second round of 6. This is all true.

During the trial a woman officer who had been promised something did testify against her co-workers. You have to realize, though, that she would have had her arm twisted by the Feds. They always go for the women, seeing them as the weak links. They tell them they are going to jail and wont see their children for years unless they turn state's witness. That cruel tactic usually works - even causing women to exaggerate in order to get a deal. so you can't depend on testimony like that - and the jury didn't.

I recall that Melendez received Bronze Star "for acts of heroism, meritorious achievement, or meritorious service in Desert Storm.

So he served his country in perilous combat. I never did. How many here have done that?

[Kevgoblue]

I think that Bill Melendez' past isn't germane here....



I recall that Melendez received Bronze Star "for acts of heroism, meritorious achievement, or meritorious service in Desert Storm.

Why wouldn't his past behavior be relevant? You went on and on, referencing the past behavior of the witnesses in the trial.
But if you'd wish to continue using this same logic, shouldn't Melendez's previous heroic, meritorious service in Desert Storm be irrelevant as well?

Lastly, was the behavior caputred by the dash cam heroic? That is the behavior which is in question. We were talking about the blue wall. i.e. police protecting other police offers, regardless of the circumstances.

[SWMAP]

His past behavior was not found, by a jury of his peers, to be culpable. You referenced his history and I thought that i would give you a eye-witness review of the court proceedings.

For today's issue - one that was seen on video - the past is not exactly a predictor.

[Ray1936]

I'll not make judgements on press reports.

[Wesley Mouch]

Summation: If you think too many cops are bad, you find a case like this and read into it what justifies your preconceived and popular notions. If you've seen the case up close, you're more likely to believe that something cops are railroaded based on weak testimony. Neither side is right nor wrong. We've developed our justice and police systems to try and make sure cops behave, and when the go rogue they are propertly dealth with. Sometimes the system fails and lets badness thrive. At least it doesn't tend to convict good cops often.

The current mob mentality should be a concern for all. You may think cops are bad, and sometimes get away with murder. And you may be right. But be careful when you wish for a system where cops shy away from law enforcement. Result is 1980s NYC.

[G-DDT]

There is something to be strongly said when two different heads of Inkster police have resigned in the past six months. They are clearly not happy with the way things are being done there. Also, it may be because Inkster has become a dumping ground for cops with a bad past.

No, not all cops are bad, however, the issue of police brutality has been with society for a very long time [[the literature, political cartoons reflecting the past, the many reports going back to famous situations in labor, civil rights, the Chicago 1968 Democratic Convention, Rodney King, etc.) and I for one, have seen police at the worst many times. It is an issue that must be acknowledged and addressed, and no one should assume it's some sparse rarity.

However, I think it odd when the media puts a magnifying glass on it, when it was well known for hiding past details. I sited my three theories earlier, and mob mentality to get violently riotous is what I would hope people would avoid.

I do think that someone's past is an indicator if we are to mention the pasts of the suspected infractors the media show the police arresting. Also, what happens when the past of someone is muddled by those protecting him like this ICE agent claiming a kid "fell through an attic floor" to get at him. http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/a...shots/32618568 yet, http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ting/26571925/ A clear case of being protected, and as for the "hole in the ceiling" http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...agent/32652604. Darren Wilson was shown to have quite a past before killing Brown.

It is not wise to try and use someone's past military service record as a shield in your argument. I respect many veterans, but I don't fool myself as to why they were sent into a battle situation, and it was not to pass out flowers and candy. Some Republican had to apologize for comments he made about all mass murderers being Democrats. If I kept to his flawed train of logic with better applied scrutiny, and the chutzpah to dare say it-I'd point out what many assassins, mass murderers, serial killers, etc. have in common with each other that Kubrick once pointed out in one of his movies. Yet, I won't.

Also, if it isn't just a matter of history, how about how one acts after being let go-let's not forget how many ugly things we've heard about George Zimmerman since he was cleared?

[SWMAP]

Once again, I have to point to my being around a long time and so I am cynical of the accusation - later thrown out - that the ICE agent held a gun to his wife's head.

You know that she was herself a Detroit Police Officer?

Do you also know that the DPD has a zero tolerance policy with regard to accusations of domestic abuse?

No one knows better what will happen to an officer even merely accused than another Detroit Police Officer: he will be immediately suspended and an entire protocol of investigations and sanctions will ensue.
As a DPD Officer herself, she had to press charges once she accused him of domestic violence involving a weapon. She can't back out as others do because her credibility in the Deapartment is at stake.

So there you have it. Remember, a judge threw the whole thing out when it came to court.

As to Officer Melendez' honors and awards - those should factor in to any discussion as much as any references to a past court case in which he was not found to be guilty - no more, no less.

[G-DDT]

So, we are going by the honors of police who've been known to protect each other, a system that gives paid vacations to murderous cops, and a system at whole that promises to "investigate" a matter, which eats up time in hopes that people forget. Not to mention a legal system that some folks will accuse as "revolving door" and unfair when O.J. is let go, but "tried and true" when it applies to police and certain representatives of political, military, and corporate entities.

What a complete affront to history as a whole!

“Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system.”
-Dorothy Day

I know far too much [[and I don't claim to know everything) about just what makes this system rotten.

Also, you put yourself in an odd position when it's cop verses cop tried in a police system. Either way you cut it, there are some flaws there. I also, can't help but notice when I site vast examples, folks pick and choose what topics to refute in some pointless digression. There was no damage to the ceiling as he stated. A female police officer at the scene was witnessed to say to the man "Why'd you shoot him?" As far as past records show, he also stood idly by when attacks were made on others.

[G-DDT]

Again, I'm sick of going in circles about having to prove the fallibility of media [[yet, I have to site from such sources themselves to become all things to others, since no one wants to hear from the Worldlink or Chomsky camp), police brutality, racial inequality, corrupt legal systems, and of politics as a whole. The tin halo "whattya' gonna do about it" schtick gets tiring. The "that was in the past" when the corpse is still warm, the pick and choose disproportionate arguments, and the hiding behind family or service records or any other tactics I commonly see employed by Foxnews mentalities is getting wearying.

The examples, the evidence, the details are there not to be skimmed over. It's all I can do here without siting my own personal examples, as well. It all goes back to when me and my friends knew that suburban cops were using racial police code [[like 'N.I.L." or "Spoda'"), which was later proven to be true [[just as "Driving While Black" is very true).

Yet, in all fairness, I can site as well when I dealt with decent police officers doing their jobs as they should. It becomes an issue when they don't. It becomes an issue when they have a corrupt system surrounding them, and the community knows this and has known this for a long time.

Also, regarding our legal system. Don't get me started about who is indicted and who gets off scot-free, for I have quite the collection of material about folks falsely accused [[Like "Actual Innocence" by Scheck and Dwyer, for example) who did long stretches [[remember when Boston PD actually were coersing a junkie to say that he overheard their "prime suspect" confess to the murder of Charles Stuart's wife, when it was Charles Stuart all along, but that didn't stop Boston PD from turning the African American Populace of Boston upside down at the time?) with little restitution. Just the facts that our legal system prosecutes, incarcerates, and executes more blacks than whites says something for this country [[and to say otherwise is to put yourself in peril of racial profiling/stereotyping). I did point out we actually had K.K.K. working in Florida prisons, and if there is any hope for our system left, it's the fact that they got caught [[though think of all that goes overlooked....) by the F.B.I.

[SWMAP]

I have never seen that quote by Dorothy Day and it seemed so unlike her that I looked it up. This from the National Catholic Reporter 04-16-12:

"This is Dorothy Day’s most famous quote. The problem is that she probably never said it.
I was unaware of any controversy until I read a letter in the summer 2008 issue of The RoundTable, a journal published by the St. Louis Catholic Worker community. Bill Barrett, an old friend and my contemporary at the New York Worker, commented on the fact that the “filthy, rotten system” line was mentioned four times in a previous issue.
“Dorothy hated to hear that quoted back to her,” he wrote, and insisted that she would not even allow the poster in question in the house."

If you read the article you will see that day once did refer to capitalism in an inteview as a "lousy system" - is that what you meant?
Capitalism is a lousy system [[What Dorothy day really said) or criminal justice is a filthy rotten system?

[G-DDT]

I have never seen that quote by Dorothy Day and it seemed so unlike her that I looked it up. This from the National Catholic Reporter 04-16-12:

"This is Dorothy Day’s most famous quote. The problem is that she probably never said it.
I was unaware of any controversy until I read a letter in the summer 2008 issue of The RoundTable, a journal published by the St. Louis Catholic Worker community. Bill Barrett, an old friend and my contemporary at the New York Worker, commented on the fact that the “filthy, rotten system” line was mentioned four times in a previous issue.
“Dorothy hated to hear that quoted back to her,” he wrote, and insisted that she would not even allow the poster in question in the house."

If you read the article you will see that day once did refer to capitalism in an inteview as a "lousy system" - is that what you meant?
Capitalism is a lousy system [[What Dorothy day really said) or criminal justice is a filthy rotten system?

The article here is http://ncronline.org/news/people/dor...wasnt-hers-all with words like "paraphrase', "inconclusive", and "likely" and recollections by Barrett [[and not Peter Maurin), I see the matter ambiguous. I will have to provide a print up of the Catholic Worker House Mission statement [[which oddly enough, like somnethings, is not as readily available online as they should be). You will see the language is very critical of "the system" at large.

Better still, I support most nitpickery, but to criticize the validation of a quote from a source most folks would never heed on Detroityes, is distracting digression.

[sumas]

if drugs had been legalized my Django would be alive. Crap now I am crying again.

The point of course... police brutality. The 7th precinct amazing and we lDo not expect civil disturbance

[Wesley Mouch]

if drugs had been legalized my Django would be alive. Crap now I am crying again.

The point of course... police brutality. The 7th precinct amazing and we lDo not expect civil disturbance

The agitators out there don't care that you're precinct is amazing. They only care about their issues. And if you're in the way, oh well. Where the next riot will occur will mostly be determine by where the next compelling video where a black life doesn't matter.

[mtburb]

Bump.

I'm about to tell you about something that actually happened today.

We decided to go to the Taco Bell on Eureka in Southgate this afternoon. Fortunately, I stayed out. The other person in the car saw young black kids yelling things loudly and even throwing things.

That is very shocking, considering that I was only a few hundred feet away from all this.

[artds]

It will be be interesting to see if there are riots in Cleveland this weekend over the acquittal of officer Michael Brelo. There is a Cavaliers playoff game on Sunday as well. Hopefully Dan Gilbert has ordered extra security in and around Quicken Loans arena.