A. Alfred Taubman Passes Away At Age 91. Michigan Loses A Truly Great Man.

[Bham1982]

Once again you hold out something as a fact when it is grossly incorrect. Each and every newspaper story that I have read on the passing of this great man has mentioned his legal problem as it relates to Sotheby's.

Oh, boy. Someone didn't get a good night's sleep.

The comment was The guy was a crook, don't leave that out. The local rags sure seemed to.

I don't read either paper anymore. They're garbage. I assume that everyone else in this thread, making such comments, did so.

Do you still wish to stand by your statement?

About our papers? Hell, yeah. If you're right and they did include details of the conviction and imprisonment, then obviously no.

[SyGolden48236]

Oh, boy. Someone didn't get a good night's sleep.

The comment was The guy was a crook, don't leave that out. The local rags sure seemed to.

I don't read either paper anymore. They're garbage. I assume that everyone else in this thread, making such comments, did so.



About our papers? Hell, yeah. If you're right and they did include details of the conviction and imprisonment, then obviously no.

I got a wonderful night's sleep, thank you.

Was it not your comment that the local papers failed to mention Mr. Taubman's legal difficulties vis-a-vis Sotheby's?

Did you not state that this alleged failure to mention Mr. Taubman's legal difficulties is a good example of the "relative [[lack of) quality of the local media"?

Did I not present to you absolute evidence to refute your aforementioned statements?

Would you not agree that merely because you "don't read either paper anymore" that does not negate the fact that the Sotheby's incident was indeed mentioned.

Would you not agree that it is in poor form, not to mention patently untruthful, to hold out as fact matters of which you have no direct knowledge?

[Detroitnerd]

A great man? In the sense of the dollars that passed through his purse? Or in the sense of great deeds that will stand the test of time?

In an entirely amoral sense, he was a genius. He knew how to put together a development, sell it to the PTB, sell it to the public, and then, once he'd made a bundle, sell it off to the people who would wring the final profit from it, all while he was on to the next development. That's some ninja business sense. Although for the communities that now are faced with the question of what to do with all this single-use architecture and all these massive parking lots, they may have other perspectives. Whether they like it or not, the man made his money.

But what was the man's vision? That's what usually defines a person's legacy. His vision seems to have been anti-urban. He didn't do the actual block-busting that drove people of means out of the city, but, as a commercial architect, he was out in the suburbs with a catcher's mitt, ready to seize those customers as they rushed toward him. He was good at smooth-talking the suburbs that would eventually be saddled with crumbling malls; in fact, much better at wooing local governments than even Sam Frankel, who fought with Troy for decades over Somerset.

And when it came to building in the city, his vision was equally clear, as illustrated by his collaboration with Max Fisher on Riverfront Towers: Get a generous tax abatement from the city to build a gated, drive-in community for wealthy residents, including a large marina, with no subsidized housing included. In other words, the poorest residents of the city are essentially subsidizing a glamorous development by two of the region's most notable billionaires. It is only one of countless examples of this, but, again, Taubman had the wealth and influence to break with that vision if he wanted, to declare his own vision, if he had one. He apparently didn't.

His heyday was an interesting time. In the 50-year-long disaster that is metro Detroit, which is like a great Titanic sinking in slow motion, he was like a man selling lifeboats to the rich on Detroit's sinking end, and selling deck chairs to people on the end that was still out of the water. He saw that there was a great deal of money to be made off a region so clearly divided. That's where his success lay.

Is he worth mourning? Well, if you love money -- and Adolph Taubman loved money -- he may well be an inspiration to you as you lead your life chasing it.

If you really love Detroit? You might find other heroes, I should think.

[SyGolden48236]

A great man? In the sense of the dollars that passed through his purse? Or in the sense of great deeds that will stand the test of time?

In an entirely amoral sense, he was a genius. He knew how to put together a development, sell it to the PTB, sell it to the public, and then, once he'd made a bundle, sell it off to the people who would wring the final profit from it, all while he was on to the next development. That's some ninja business sense. Although for the communities that now are faced with the question of what to do with all this single-use architecture and all these massive parking lots, they may have other perspectives. Whether they like it or not, the man made his money.

But what was the man's vision? That's what usually defines a person's legacy. His vision seems to have been anti-urban. He didn't do the actual block-busting that drove people of means out of the city, but, as a commercial architect, he was out in the suburbs with a catcher's mitt, ready to seize those customers as they rushed toward him. He was good at smooth-talking the suburbs that would eventually be saddled with crumbling malls; in fact, much better at wooing local governments than even Sam Frankel, who fought with Troy for decades over Somerset.

And when it came to building in the city, his vision was equally clear, as illustrated by his collaboration with Max Fisher on Riverfront Towers: Get a generous tax abatement from the city to build a gated, drive-in community for wealthy residents, including a large marina, with no subsidized housing included. In other words, the poorest residents of the city are essentially subsidizing a glamorous development by two of the region's most notable billionaires. It is only one of countless examples of this, but, again, Taubman had the wealth and influence to break with that vision if he wanted, to declare his own vision, if he had one. He apparently didn't.

His heyday was an interesting time. In the 50-year-long disaster that is metro Detroit, which is like a great Titanic sinking in slow motion, he was like a man selling lifeboats to the rich on Detroit's sinking end, and selling deck chairs to people on the end that was still out of the water. He saw that there was a great deal of money to be made off a region so clearly divided. That's where his success lay.

Is he worth mourning? Well, if you love money -- and Adolph Taubman loved money -- he may well be an inspiration to you as you lead your life chasing it.

If you really love Detroit? You might find other heroes, I should think.

Your obvious class-envy aside, not everything that anybody does in Southeast Michigan needs to be about Detroit.

People living in the suburbs need a place to shop. And Fairlane & Partridge Creek [[which Taubman sold last year), Twelve Oaks and Lakeside Malls are hardly crumbling and the cities in which they are located are more than happy to have the tax revenue that they generate. The folks that work in these malls are happy to have the jobs they they provide too.

You cry about tax incentives given to build Riverfront Towers more than 30 years ago, but if that development did not happen those so called "wealthy" folks which you despise would more than likely have moved out of the city taking the excessively high taxes that they pay to the city with them.

You wail about no subsidized housing being included in Riverfront. Why should it be included? Do you honestly think that middle class or those evil "rich" people want to live next door to section 8?

I know that it might be hard to understand but the entire world does not revolve around Detroit. Not everybody fancies themselves as an ultra-cool, hipper than thou "urban pioneer". There is a big wonderful world outside of the crumbling 139 square mile confines of the city of Detroit. Many wonderful people live and work and raise families out there.

Stop crying about what the suburbs have and Detroit does not. If Detroit could support a large shopping mall you can bet your bottom dollar Taubman or someone else would have built one. Detroit can barely support decent grocery stores. You have to crawl before you can walk.

Lastly, I do not consider Al Taubman a hero. I considered him a good friend and a great benefactor for many institutions in Southeastern Michigan. I don't love Detroit. I don't love any city. I love my family.

[dtowncitylover]

Your obvious class-envy aside...You wail about no subsidized housing being included in Riverfront. Why should it be included? Do you honestly think that middle class or those evil "rich" people want to live next door to section 8?

Oh Sy, I love how you deride people for being "class envy" and then make classist remarks like this. Unless those apartments say "SECTION 8 LIVES HERE" across the door how the heck will someone know they're section 8? As long as my neighbors are quiet, respectable, and tidy, what do I care if they receive housing subsidies?

For the most part I agree with you Sy about Taubman. He was a good and decent man, we make mistakes.

[Detroitnerd]

Your obvious class-envy aside, not everything that anybody does in Southeast Michigan needs to be about Detroit.

People living in the suburbs need a place to shop. And Fairlane & Partridge Creek [[which Taubman sold last year), Twelve Oaks and Lakeside Malls are hardly crumbling and the cities in which they are located are more than happy to have the tax revenue that they generate. The folks that work in these malls are happy to have the jobs they they provide too.

You cry about tax incentives given to build Riverfront Towers more than 30 years ago, but if that development did not happen those so called "wealthy" folks which you despise would more than likely have moved out of the city taking the excessively high taxes that they pay to the city with them.

You wail about no subsidized housing being included in Riverfront. Why should it be included? Do you honestly think that middle class or those evil "rich" people want to live next door to section 8?

I know that it might be hard to understand but the entire world does not revolve around Detroit. Not everybody fancies themselves as an ultra-cool, hipper than thou "urban pioneer". There is a big wonderful world outside of the crumbling 139 square mile confines of the city of Detroit. Many wonderful people live and work and raise families out there.

Stop crying about what the suburbs have and Detroit does not. If Detroit could support a large shopping mall you can bet your bottom dollar Taubman or someone else would have built one. Detroit can barely support decent grocery stores. You have to crawl before you can walk.

Lastly, I do not consider Al Taubman a hero. I considered him a good friend and a great benefactor for many institutions in Southeastern Michigan. I don't love Detroit. I don't love any city. I love my family.

My dear, old, very confused fellow. Your anxiety and anger come through in the way you feel compelled to try to force words into my mouth. Very sad that you should have to resort to such base tactics in your attempted rebuttal.

Class envy? I'm a working-class person and quite proud of it, thank you very much, sir. Some things are preferable to money. A grateful conscience, for instance. No, I do not envy people for their means. All too often, behind a great fortune is a great injustice. I go to my Day of Reckoning with an unburdened soul and intact scruples. As if money would help.

I am not crying, nor wailing, nor gnashing my teeth and rending my garments about what has been done to Detroit. I am simply pointing out that Adolph Taubman was out there in front to capitalize on it. Shrewd opportunism is good for those who'd make money, but not so good for that lasting legacy people think about in their old age.

I know that it might be hard to understand, but the world does not revolve around Bloomfield Hills, or your family, or your friends. Generally, for millennia, the world has revolved, oddly, around cities and their institutions, be they bourses, temples, offices of government or corporate headquarters. Taubman's rise and fall seem to roughly coincide with an experimental 90-year-period in which we stopped building cities and started building parking lots and highways and subdivisions.

With malls crumbling and vegetation poking up through blacktop lots, I am reminded of Shelley's "Ozymandias." The last tenant to leave Taubman's developments should affix the poem over its entrances.