Buffalo, N.Y. vs. Detroit

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-05-09, 02:42 PM

Just got back from a three-day trip to Buffalo, N.Y., and let me tell you, it is everything that Detroit could have been and should be. The parallels are striking:
*Lost half of its population since 1950.
*Has no major, thriving industry [[top five employers in Buffalo are all government, from state to county to federal).
*Rust Belt city.
*The median income is below $25,000 a year.
*Has a downtown that dies at 5.
*Has a gorgeous collection of old, pre-1930s buildings and houses.
*Has a large suburban population.
*Has a reputation for crime.
*Has a university.
*Has an artistic, youthful community.

The only things that were noticeably different about the makeup were a lack of a major race riot in the '60s, Detroit is about FOUR times bigger population-wise, and the population is 53% white and 38% black. And yes, Detroit is bigger, geographically [[Buffalo is about 43 square miles compared with Detroit's 138).

But everything else, whoo boy. A city that embraces its architecture and past, with nice signage telling you about the buildings, who designed them and what happened there. It's clean. Very little graffiti and little trash, either attributable to city services or people who care and don't throw their empty 25-cent chip bags on the sidewalk. You can drive for blocks and blocks in the residential areas around downtown and not will you not see a rundown, burned-out or boarded up house, even in the real-estate collapse, but you don't even see empty lots where houses used to stand. That is, their 1900-1920 housing stock is not only in great shape but complete and well-preserved.

Now, that's not to say there aren't empty buildings. There were many for-sale signs on commercial properties downtown. Their Statler Hotel [[much, much, much bigger than Detroit's) is right across from City Hall and is up for auction next week. There are chunks of the cornice missing, either removed or fell.

So maybe it's the leadership. Maybe it's the schools. Maybe it's because Detroit has too little spread out over too much land [[another argument for consolidating people and returning sparsely populated ones to wilderness). I have no idea, but I cannot tell you how depressed I got walking around seeing what we COULD have had. There's no reason why, that I can tell, Detroit couldn't have been like Buffalo. It breaks your heart, even more so than living amid the shambles.

There was an article in Buffalo's morning friendly while I was there that helps to illustrate the differences between Detroit and the DEGC's line of thinking and how things are done there:

"It became an icon for everything that was wrong in Buffalo and our local economy," Douglas G. Swift said, shaking his head that a building with such a rich history could be lost so quickly. "We have a chance to change that. It can now be a symbol of determination and new ideals. This city is slowly growing, but there is hope for downtown yet."

http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/753380.html

**iheartthed** · August-05-09, 02:51 PM

Detroit should aspire to be Buffalo,NY? LOL. Wow.

**E hemingway** · August-05-09, 03:12 PM

That last line really sums it up. Buffalo [[for all of its problems) at least has forward-thinking, innovative, solution-based leadership. Metro Detroit and especially the city itself lacks this sort of ethos. Our leadership is stuck in such a Rust Belt mentality that trots out the same old tired "solutions" that have never, and will never solve our problems. Buffalo's leaders look at their problems as an opportunity to improve their region. Detroit's leaders looks at our problems as something they think will go away if they just ignore them a little longer.

gravitymachine · August-05-09, 03:15 PM

have friends there and visit often, which i've stated in many other threads on the same subject.

Originally Posted by E hemingway

That last line really sums it up. Buffalo [[for all of its problems) at least has forward-thinking, innovative, solution-based leadership. Metro Detroit and especially the city itself lacks this sort of ethos

byron brown is a great mayor

**Fury13** · August-05-09, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Detroit should aspire to be Buffalo,NY? LOL. Wow.

That's right. Detroit should aspire to be Buffalo, or Pittsburgh, or Milwaukee. Those would be somewhat realistic aspirations, even though it might take Detroit 40 years to achieve the quality of life of any of those cities. Even more realistic: aspire to be Cleveland or Cincinnati or St. Louis.

Unrealistic aspirations would be Minneapolis, Chicago, NYC. Never, never, never.

**iheartthed** · August-05-09, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Fury13

That's right. Detroit should aspire to be Buffalo, or Pittsburgh, or Milwaukee. Those would be somewhat realistic aspirations, even though it might take Detroit 40 years to achieve the quality of life of any of those cities. Even more realistic: aspire to be Cleveland or Cincinnati or St. Louis.

Unrealistic aspirations would be Minneapolis, Chicago, NYC. Never, never, never.

You're so funny.

LodgeDodger · August-05-09, 04:11 PM

BOD, did you get a chance to tour any of the FLW buildings?

Betterhalf is from Buffalo. The Anchor Bar is a shrine.

**Danny** · August-05-09, 04:40 PM

Buffalo compared with Detroit is declining fast. Thier population is under 300,000 from 580,000 since 1960. This is due to lack to shipping and manfactoring base and growing black population. Buffalo's neighborhoods are not as ghettolike as Detroit. There are mostly woodframe family flats near the inner city parts and brick to woodframe colonials, bungalows and ranches New England Style. Buffalo has very nice mom and pop retail strips and sleepy 9 to 5 downtown and small homeless population. Skiw Rows in Buffalo are non-existant.

If Detroit follows Buffalo urban pattern than we could have 50 to 30% white and Hispanic population.

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-05-09, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Detroit should aspire to be Buffalo,NY? LOL. Wow.

You ever been there? I was completely blown away. Now, it isn't always the most action-packed city. And I was there for only three days, but you cannot argue with the fact that it is better looking, better kept, better run and has a better reputation than Detroit.

**iheartthed** · August-05-09, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by buildingsofdetroit

You ever been there? I was completely blown away. Now, it isn't always the most action-packed city. And I was there for only three days, but you cannot argue with the fact that it is better looking, better kept, better run and has a better reputation than Detroit.

I've driven through, but admittedly I haven't spent any time there. I'm sure it's a great town, but for Detroit to model itself after Buffalo is kinda laughable. First of all, Buffalo still hasn't figured out how to stop its own massive population losses. Second, Buffalo isn't as prominent a city as Detroit, nor is it the flagship city of its own state. Granted, there are probably some lessons for Detroit to learn from Buffalo, but for Detroit to model itself after Buffalo would just be a waste of Detroit's own potential.

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-05-09, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I've driven through, but admittedly I haven't spent any time there. I'm sure it's a great town, but for Detroit to model itself after Buffalo is kinda laughable. First of all, Buffalo still hasn't figured out how to stop its own massive population losses. Second, Buffalo isn't as prominent a city as Detroit, nor is it the flagship city of its own state. Granted, there are probably some lessons for Detroit to learn from Buffalo, but for Detroit to model itself after Buffalo would just be a waste of Detroit's own potential.

Well, it's hard to be the flagship city of its state when the city with that title is the flagship city of the entire country. And I didn't mean to imply that Detroit should do everything Buffalo does, or even model itself after Buffalo, but I'm saying that there is no excuse for Detroit's blight and mismanagement when another city that is basically a miniature Detroit with more snow looks and functions great.

ziggyselbin · August-05-09, 09:59 PM

Poor Ihearthed, he/she has indentified themselves as a twentysomething college grad native of Detroit. He/she continually lashes out at any and I mean any perceived slight or stark observation about Detroit.

The truth is Iheart you never knew Detroit when it was a prominent city. Detroit certainly has historical significance, and it pains me to say it but Detroit's prominence is a thing of the past

**FlyingJ** · August-05-09, 03:16 PM

buildingsofdetroit, you left out the Anarchist who killed a Republican President in Buffalo was a Detroiter, baptized @ St. Albertus

you could bring back the D-Cleveland-Erie-Buffalo ferries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit...gation_Company

**EastsideAl** · August-05-09, 03:52 PM

Wow, I gotta say, that I never thought I would see the day when Detroit would be told that the best thing it can aspire to is to model itself on much smaller podunk backwater cities like Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cleveland [[!). I mean cosmopolitan, metropolitan Detroit, wealthiest city in America with nearly 2 million inhabitants being compared unfavorably to Buffalo, a place my grandfather once called purgatory with a waterfall... really?!?

Worst part is, I agree. A sad sign of just how far we've fallen.

**GPCharles** · August-05-09, 03:53 PM

How about Providence, RI? 20 years ago that city was a complete dump! Now it is thriving. Of course, the mayor went to jail for kickbacks, but at least he got things done.

**Fury13** · August-05-09, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by GPCharles

How about Providence, RI? 20 years ago that city was a complete dump! Now it is thriving. Of course, the mayor went to jail for kickbacks, but at least he got things done.

Providence is another great example. Baltimore too.

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-05-09, 08:58 PM

As for FLW, I've never been a huge fan of Wright's. Actually, I've never been a fan of modern architecture, period. Not saying it's not important and that FLW's homes aren't national treasures, but I was far more interested in the Guaranty Building, Buffalo Statler and City Hall.

**EastsideAl** · August-06-09, 04:40 PM

Still, what a terrible comedown to compare - unfavorably - the once mighty city of Detroit to poor little ol' Buffalo.

ziggyselbin · August-06-09, 05:18 PM

So you resort to your very predictable arrogance eh Iheart?

Again a definition of prominent relevant to this topic

2. prominent - conspicuous in position or importance; "a big figure in the movement"; "big man on campus"; "he's very large in financial circles"; "a prominent citizen"

if you refuse to acknowledge the point I'm sure others don't.

**Kathleen** · August-06-09, 09:42 PM

Thanks, BuildingsofDetroit! I'll put the City Hall Observation Deck on the itinerary. Also want to revisit the Ellicott Square Building...a Daniel Burnham beauty in downtown Buffalo.

**dtowncitylover** · August-06-09, 10:24 PM

Perhaps Detroit isn't as prominent as New York or Chicago, but it still has it's place in the world. Buffalo never did. If cities were human, I do believe Detroit would be represented well. The world runs on wheels because of us. The last time Buffalo made the news was that plane crash earlier this year. Detroit and her auto companies make the news routinely and still [[and forever) is the worldwide associated word for "auto". Detroit still has its prominence in the world, maybe not because of the great lifestyle and safe streets, but because of what business it has done about the world.

But Buffalo isn't known for their crime, either. So yes, maybe it would behoove Detroit to take pointers from her fellow rust belt cities, as the cliche goes. Let's try not to be other city's, but let's be Detroit. To fix Detroit, yes we are going to have see what other cities have done, but in the end Detroit will be like Detroit, not like Chicago or Buffalo or whatever.

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-06-09, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kathleen

Thanks, BuildingsofDetroit! I'll put the City Hall Observation Deck on the itinerary. Also want to revisit the Ellicott Square Building...a Daniel Burnham beauty in downtown Buffalo.

Yes! Ellicott Square was AMAZING. Though someone told me that it wasn't designed by Burnham, only his company. That mosaic floor in the interior courtyard is as amazing as the steel framework for the glass ceiling. Ellicott was second only to the Guaranty Building in ooo-that's-pretty-tude.

**Ocean2026** · August-06-09, 10:24 PM

I started a thread on City -Data.com comparing Detroit and Buffalo last year and there were a great many interesting responses- once can do a search.

I'm quite familiar with Buffalo. One difference is that Buffalo has quite a few safe neighborhoods where most buildings are intact. The East Side of Buffalo is not very nice however and Buffalo has its share of abandoned houses.

Buffalo is 2nd in the US as the most drivable city- one could get around anywhere easily at any time [[ Corpus Christi, TX is number one) [[DOT study)

Detroit housing on the other hand is cheaper much cheaper than comparable buildings in Buffalo - both cities have among the highest real estate taxes in the US.

South Buffalo is colder and snowier than north and the difference is substantial. Its just the way the wind blows in from the lake.

Byron Brown has not seemed to make any changes for the better, but at least he's not on probation.

Buffalo doesn't have the Tigers or Pistons .. but they don't have the Lions either- lol.

State U of NY at Buffalo is a good university - certainly better than Wayne State but not as good as Michigan - Ann Arbor.

Buffalo is only a tiny bit better at saving nice old buildings than Detroit- the attitude is not hat different.

**davewindsor** · August-07-09, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Detroit housing on the other hand is cheaper much cheaper than comparable buildings in Buffalo - both cities have among the highest real estate taxes in the US.

Where did you get this info from? Detroit housing is certainly not cheaper than Buffalo. Here's a functional 2,600 sq. ft 2 and a half storey duplex with updated hydro for $20,000 http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...332?gate=icrea

Here's a $3,000 boarded up 2 and a half storey. http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...731?gate=icrea

176 houses listed under $20,000 on mls.. I've been to Buffalo before. They have ghettos. They have fire bombed houses. I think proportionately in terms of good buildings to dumps it's very similar. But, on a much smaller scale. Housing is certainly not cheaper. I would argue the prices are about the same. They haven't recovered from their depressed real estate market any more than Detroit has. As far as real estate goes, they are pretty much in the same boat as Detroit.

LodgeDodger · August-08-09, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

I started a thread on City -Data.com comparing Detroit and Buffalo last year and there were a great many interesting responses- once can do a search.

I'm quite familiar with Buffalo. One difference is that Buffalo has quite a few safe neighborhoods where most buildings are intact. The East Side of Buffalo is not very nice however and Buffalo has its share of abandoned houses.

Buffalo is 2nd in the US as the most drivable city- one could get around anywhere easily at any time [[ Corpus Christi, TX is number one) [[DOT study)

Detroit housing on the other hand is cheaper much cheaper than comparable buildings in Buffalo - both cities have among the highest real estate taxes in the US.

South Buffalo is colder and snowier than north and the difference is substantial. Its just the way the wind blows in from the lake.

Byron Brown has not seemed to make any changes for the better, but at least he's not on probation.

Buffalo doesn't have the Tigers or Pistons .. but they don't have the Lions either- lol.

State U of NY at Buffalo is a good university - certainly better than Wayne State but not as good as Michigan - Ann Arbor.

Buffalo is only a tiny bit better at saving nice old buildings than Detroit- the attitude is not hat different.

Ocean, have you yet visited Detroit? If not, I hardly think you have any expertise in a comparison of the two cities. You were the guy who didn't know about Woodward Avenue and its significance to the area. Have you been to Wayne State? How can you make an accurate assesssment between WSU and U of M? Spare me the statistics.