Streetcar Revival is Wavering in Some Cities - NY Times

[Hermod]

The Detroit trolley lines were abandoned because:
1. The tracks were worn out and needed to be replaced.
2. The overhead wire was expensive to maintain.
3. Pedestrian safety crossing between the trolley lines and the sidewalk was an issue [[particularly on multi-lane roads).
4. The trolley lane was needed as a left turn lane.
5. All cost/effectiveness analyses said that creation of a bus line moved just as many passengers cheaper than rehabilitation of the trolley line.
6. Buses had more flexibility and could be quickly redeployed to meet traffic needs.

What our 1946-1956 visions for buses didn't envision was:
1. Incompetent and uncaring drivers.
2. Incompetent and uncaring mechanics.
3. Failure to fund repair parts and maintenance.
4. Failure to fund systematic replacement as buses aged.

[professorscott]

The city the article seemed to be focused on is DC area, which if I remember correctly, has a subway system. Light rail is inferior to the subway so it really shouldn't be surprising the light rail isn't taking off in DC. Perhaps the money spent streetcars would have been better suited on expanding the subway system. Just a thought.

DC is a perfect example of how not to do a streetcar projects. Streetcars are not a panacea; they are a piece of an overall transportation system. Portland's streetcar struggles to keep up with demand, despite being the slowest motor vehicle I've ever had the pleasure of riding, because it serves a useful purpose.

The DC streetcar on H Street is supposed to connect Union Station to the east H Street corridor in order to revitalize the corridor. To start with, it is a long, ugly walk from Union Station to the streetcar terminus; unlike buses, the streetcar comes nowhere near any station entrance. The project was not well thought out, was planned poorly and executed poorly. The tracks are laid, stations built and streetcars in place, and there is still no projected date for the start of passenger service. There has been shockingly bad management and a complete lack of transparency and cooperation.

I think M1 Rail, like Portland, is getting the parts all essentially right. Of course we'll see, but I was involved in the very early days of M1 and I know the thinking and the process that went into what we are now getting, and of course the public outreach has been exemplary.

[ddaydetroit]

Please go to Melbourne, Portland, Toronto, St. Petersburg, Vienna, Amsterdam, Paris, or Manchester and tell them their streetcars aren't "real" transit.

Pray tell Bham1982, knower of everything, what is "real" transit?

I get that the streetcar goes 3.3 miles. It doesn't go far enough but the fact that a bunch of rich guys decided to pool their money and build this is frankly astounding. I'm not saying we should be grateful and take what they're giving us, but this is where it starts. A N-S line [[instead of a circle) through three vital and growing districts that need better transit than buses. If we want the RTA to work, we need to vote YES to fund it. Plain and simple. That will get better buses, streetcar extensions, and complimenting schedules and fare plans.

I have been to Vienna, Amsterdam, Paris and the system seems to work great but many of the users do not have cars and use them for everyday for getting to work or shopping how many riders will we get on an everyday bases once the novelty wears off ?

[dtowncitylover]

I have been to Vienna, Amsterdam, Paris and the system seems to work great but many of the users do not have cars and use them for everyday for getting to work or shopping how many riders will we get on an everyday bases once the novelty wears off ?

We're trying to reestablish urbanity in Detroit. Cars don't help. Hopefully a well funded RTA, expanded streetcar lines, and better buses and schedule times will make people less likely to use their car.

[beachboy]

Why ever did Detroit sell the streetcars and pull up the tracks in 1956?

At the risk of being called a "conspiracy theorist" <gasp!>, here
is a detailed article on the Great General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy:

Part I: The Villains
http://www.baycrossings.com/Archives...conspiracy.htm

Part II: The Plot Clots
http://www.baycrossings.com/Archives...conspiracy.htm

And for those who must be dispassionate, a more moderate analysis
is provided by Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...car_conspiracy

Read and weep...

[Patrick]

That's because European cities didn't *demolish* their streetcar lines after World War II--they *rebuilt* them! Ergo, they don't have to build what they already have! You know what virtually no country outside of South America or the United States is building? The crappy "modern functional transit" bus routes that cheapskates and highway departments are forcing on us.

Asia is a bit of a different animal. In a lot of Asian cities, there is heavy reliance on motorbikes, which don't take up nearly the space [[and parking) that automobiles do. The larger cities on that continent [[which, frankly, dwarf most American and European cities) either have built, or are building metro systems.

After living in Frankfurt, I can attest the effectivess of trams in modern-day society. I was a typical American skeptic prior to living there...guess it takes actually using public transportation to appreciate it. Just beware of the Fahrkartenkontrolleur [[ticket police). They'll embarrass and humiliate you if they catch you without a ticket...and then send your happy ass home with a hefty fine.

[Gpwrangler]

We're trying to reestablish urbanity in Detroit. Cars don't help. Hopefully a well funded RTA, expanded streetcar lines, and better buses and schedule times will make people less likely to use their car.

You would need to bring jobs into the city to reduce car dependency. The majority of my neighbors do not work in areas served by mass transit. My 20+ mile commute is actually quite average.

It it would be cool to have a fast, safe way of getting to work [[like chicago's Metra) but I don't see that happening here.

[dtowncitylover]

You would need to bring jobs into the city to reduce car dependency. The majority of my neighbors do not work in areas served by mass transit. My 20+ mile commute is actually quite average.

It it would be cool to have a fast, safe way of getting to work [[like chicago's Metra) but I don't see that happening here.

Per the first paragraph, jobs are being brought into the city. We need to bring bodies into the city to live. But that won't happen en masse until many things are changed. And while your 20+ mile commute might be average for you and your neighbors, it frankly is self imposed.

As for the second paragraph, commuter rail is hard to get here because track owners like CN and Norfolk Southern are difficult to work with.

[Gpwrangler]

Per the first paragraph, jobs are being brought into the city. We need to bring bodies into the city to live. But that won't happen en masse until many things are changed. And while your 20+ mile commute might be average for you and your neighbors, it frankly is self imposed.

As for the second paragraph, commuter rail is hard to get here because track owners like CN and Norfolk Southern are difficult to work with.

When major manufacturing and engineering moves from the suburbs to the city I will have it made. But I don't see those types of jobs being brought into the city.

I enjoy driving, I like my car, and "imposed" the commute on myself because I enjoy my job. It's no issue.

[Gpwrangler]

Asia is a bit of a different animal. In a lot of Asian cities, there is heavy reliance on motorbikes, which don't take up nearly the space [[and parking) that automobiles do. The larger cities on that continent [[which, frankly, dwarf most American and European cities) either have built, or are building metro systems.

That is quickly changing. More cars will be sold in China than in the US this year.

[ghettopalmetto]

That is quickly changing. More cars will be sold in China than in the US this year.

You could also say that there are more automobiles in New York City than in Detroit. What's your point?

[Gpwrangler]

You could also say that there are more automobiles in New York City than in Detroit. What's your point?

That transportation is always evolving, for better or worse.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
What our 1946-1956 visions for buses didn't envision was:
1. Incompetent and uncaring drivers.
2. Incompetent and uncaring mechanics.
3. Failure to fund repair parts and maintenance.
4. Failure to fund systematic replacement as buses aged.

#1 & #2 are easily solvable, except that we've decided that employment rules are more important than job performance. There's no reason we should tolerate #1 & #2 -- but we do every day. Do you think a private bus line could survive with DDOT drivers or mechanics? We created the problem by our decisions. And we can solve if we stop our focus on anything except job performance. You suck. You're fired.

#3 & #4 are true, but they are really caused by the same problems as #1 & #2. Detroit failed because it stopped focusing on quality, and started focusing on equality.

Certainly equality is important. But so is quality.

[Canadian Visitor]

Yikes. This entire post makes me embarrassed for you and your supposed knowledge on transit. No, not all those cities have entire systems of ROW tram lines. Toronto doesn't. Melbourne doesn't. Manchester doesn't for all line [[Eccles line). You seem to ignore the fact that trolleys, streetcars, trams are all synonyms. You're not fooling anyone.

Transit doesn't specifically mean rapid transit. Rapid transit is a component of a transit system. A transit system can be entirely buses that works effectively and that can definitely make a real transit system because it works. A real transit system is one that works, ie connects populations to important transportation, employment, and social centers in an efficient manner.

DDOT and SMART, while transit systems, do not work. They are shells of what they can be and will only succeed with the help of the RTA and its future funding.

For the sake of comparative info:

Toronto has 11 streetcar routes.

Of those, three, Harbourfront, Spadina and St.Clair operate within exclusive ROWs.

Two, Bathurst and Queen have small sections [[under 10% of the route) in exclusive ROW.

The remain routes are entirely in mixed traffic.

Of these, the busiest is 504-King

Overview
Type	Streetcar Route
Locale	Toronto, Ontario
Termini	Broadview Station [[East) Dundas West Station [[West)
Stations	King St. Andrew Dundas West Broadview
Daily ridership	53,100
Operation
Operator[[s)	Toronto Transit Commission
Depot[[s)	Russell, Roncesvalles [1]
Rolling stock	CLRV, ALRV
Technical
Line length	13.97 km [[8.68 mi) [1]
Track gauge	4 ft 10 7⁄8 in [[1,495 mm) - TTC Gauge
Electrification	600 VDC Overhead

[Canadian Visitor]

Toronto is also continuing to build new track; as well as new subway services.

The new Eglinton Crosstown LRT is a hybrid model, with a 2-car LRT train, [[stations can handle 3) which will operate underground through the core area of the city and then surface and take the middle 2 lanes of a suburban arterial further out [[as exclusive ROW)