It's Over-Northland to Close

[softailrider]

I found some very interesting information about the history of Northland and several of the malls that were built during the Cold War era. Designed by Victor Greun, many of the malls of that era were built outside of an 8 mile radius of a city center in the event of a nuclear attack. As it turns out, 8 miles was the blast range for nuclear bombs of that era. Greun designed several malls across the country based on the same concept of a open area in the center with two anchor stores in a multi-level structure where the lower level could be used as a fall out shelter in the event of a nuclear attack. Northland's design is around this concept. The lower level has multiple fall out shelters which at one time included supplies. The concept also was built around the area being a self contained city with housing, shopping, churches and hospitals all adjacent to the mall in order to facilitate the continuation of cities in the event of an attack which destroyed the central downtown. Green also designed Southdale in Minneapolis with this concept. The links below give more details on the concept of the malls of that area and photos of the Northland fall out shelter.

So I guess Northland, Eastland and Westland all have significance in the area's Cold War history:

http://curbed.com/archives/2014/06/1...ican-malls.php

http://www.michigancivildefense.com/...outhfield.html

Talking to my brother, he said that around 1960 or so there was a demonstration of a typical family living in the bomb shelter down at Northland, he said they spent a week there. I guess my mom and dad took us to see it.

[erikd]

Let's break this down:

1. The Northeast corner of 9 Mile and John R was not demolished [[assuming business were there) for a strip mall, but for a civic center [[post office, city hall, court, police station, and library).

2. The Northwest corner of 9 Mile and John R was a school, not businesses.

3. One of the pictures you posted shows an empty parcel.

4. Some of the demolished blocks of businesses along John R were for the construction of I-75, which you previously stated was a "benefit". You can't have it both ways.

5. Your claim that "Hazel Park actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century" is both factually incorrect as well as completely contradicts your argument for Hazel Park having a classic downtown.

6. Ferndale's downtown redevelopment [[9 Mile) began in the late 1990s, which [[further) contradicts your claim that Hazel Park "actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century". That's not to mention developments along Woodward Avenue during that time.

7. Back to my point about housing [[recognizing that you acknowledged your previous error)...from its very beginnings, Hazel Park was known to have built "modest" homes for Ford workers, and in fact undertook an effort to rid the city of its substandard housing after WWII.

8. Again, to compare the benefits of proximity of Woodward Avenue with the proximity of I-75 isn't valid. No one would agree that an avenue intersecting a given area's downtown and main street is anything close to a freeway running through the main street of another area.

9. Like it or not, CVS and Tim Horton's revived that corner more than an abandoned hotel.

Points 1 - 3. In a previous post, you said "The "traditional Main Street buildings" that you spoke of in Hazel Park consisted of outdated-then dilapidated-then abandoned Holiday Inn on one corner [[replaced with a CVS and Tim Horton's) and two strip malls that were torn down and replaced with another two strip malls. Ferndale always had a core of traditional Main Street buildings whereas there was nothing even remotely close in Hazel Park."

The pictures that I posted are evidence that Hazel Park did indeed have a core of traditional main street buildings, which were fairly similar to the traditional main street buildings found in Ferndale. Some of the pictures were taken after part of that core had been demolished, but it doesn't change the fact that they did actually exist.

4. You are absolutely correct that some of these blocks were demolished for the construction of I-75. However, I didn't say that the construction of I-75, and the resulting spree of demolition and redevelopment, was an ACTUAL benefit for Hazel Park. I said that it was CONSIDERED to be a benefit at the time, which was the case.

It has become quite obvious that the decision to demolish the classic main street buildings in favor of the strip malls, gas stations, and drive-thrus, was ultimately not a benefit in the long term, but that isn't what they believed at the time.

5. My claim that "Hazel Park actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century" is factually correct, and it does not contradict my argument that Hazel Park previously had a classic downtown/main street.

In the middle of the 20th century [[1950) Hazel Park and Ferndale both had classic main street downtowns. In the second half of the 20th century [[1950s-1990s) Hazel Park had far more downtown investment and development than Ferndale did. During this period, downtown Ferndale didn't see much new construction or redevelopment in their downtown. On the other hand, Hazel Park's downtown had so much new construction and investment that they basically demolished their old downtown, and completely rebuilt it in a new auto-centic style.

It may not have been positive development or a wise investment, but it was development and investment, however shitty it turned out.

6. You are absolutely correct that Ferndale's downtown redevelopment [[9 Mile) began in the late 1990s [[end of the 20th century), which does not contradict my claim that Hazel Park "actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century".

Downtown Hazel Park had more new development in the second half of the 20th century [[1950s-1990s). At the end of the 20th century [[late 1990s), the trend shifted, and downtown Ferndale has seen more development and investment in the 21st century. I don't think that we are in disagreement on this point.

7. I don't disagree.

8. I disagree that the Ferndale/Hazel Park comparison is not valid. It stands as a good example of the dramatic impact caused by freeway construction and auto-centic development. Most of us aren't old enough to remember what downtown Hazel Park looked like before they decided to tear it all down and rebuild it in an auto-centric style, but that doesn't invalidate my argument or mean that it didn't happen.

9. This brings us back to my original point on the topic. It is quite clear that existing city neighborhoods and older suburbs that feature more traditional style arrangements and classic main street/downtown storefront buildings are much more desirable than their counterparts that have been reconfigured in an auto-centric fashion. This should be very clear and obvious to the decision makers in Hazel Park.

However, when a key block of downtown Hazel Park [[the old hotel) recently became available for redevelopment, they ignored all of this evidence. Instead of pushing for a new, traditional style, main street storefront development [[like Ferndale has been building recently), they chose to double-down on the outdated and failing model of building auto-centric developments in their downtown/main street district.

You offered the standard justification for continuing this failing downtown/main street development model: "Like it or not, CVS and Tim Horton's revived that corner more than an abandoned hotel." However, this justification is based on a false choice. We don't have to build crappy strip-mall style buildings to attract pharmacies and coffee shops. Grosse Pointe, Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Dearborn, Rochester, Plymouth, and Detroit [[just to name a few) are able to attract these type of retailers into storefront locations.

The locations in Detroit's greater downtown are a decent example of this. CVS tends to locate stores in strip-mall type settings [[such as their Midtown location) but they also have a storefront location on Woodward downtown. Rite Aid also tends locate stores in a strip-mall setting, but their Midtown store is located in a historic storefront building. 7-11 recently came back to Detroit, and they opened one in the storefront of a historic building that had been vacant for years, and an other in a strip-mall on Jefferson. Starbucks first came into Detroit with a couple of downtown locations, and they also built a new stand-alone drive thru location on Jefferson as well. When Starbucks closed hundreds of stores across the nation, the Detroit drive-thru was one of them, but they have opened new storefront locations in downtown and midtown since then. *[[I must include a disclaimer that some of these chains also have downtown stores located on the inside of large buildings, some of which do not have a storefront on the street. However, the existence of CVS and Starbucks locations inside the RenCen does not invalidate the fact that they also have storefront locations on Woodward.)

Clearly, these major chains are willing to locate their stores in traditional style main street storefronts. It doesn't happen most of the time, partially because we have become so accustomed to building auto-centric developments that the alternative isn't even seriously considered. *[[To clarify, I am talking about developments in existing urbanized areas, especially those with a history of traditional development. I'm not talking about the development patterns of greenfield/exurban areas in this case.)

[Towne Cluber]

Likewise, I think most of your premise here is based on a false choice. It seems that you're saying "what if I-75 was never built" or "I-75 should have never been built". Either way is not realistic, not reality, and was not Hazel Park's decision. Furthermore, you seem to expect that Hazel Park had the same chance to attract [[similar) residents [[and thus a more prosperous downtown) as Ferndale, despite the latter having the advantages of better housing stock and proximity to Woodward Avenue.

You're forgetting that Downtown Ferndale redevelopment took place in the second half of the 20th century along Woodward prior to the 9 Mile redevelopment of the 1990s and 2000s. [[Median redevelopment, Woodward Avenue Brewery, John King Books North, Magic Bag Theater, Como's, etc.)

I also have questions about the viability of a traditional style main street storefront on an irregular shaped parcel of land that abuts two secondary road intersections along with an interstate service drive...in a working class area. Perhaps an auto-centric Tim Horton's and CVS work better for that particular type of area than a storefront sushi restaurant and micro brewery?

[[Downtown) Ferndale to [[Downtown) Royal Oak comparisons are valid, however, [[Downtown) Ferndale/Royal Oak to [[Downtown) Hazel Park comparisons are not valid.

[animatedmartian]

So now Target is closed and Macy's is on it's way out. Northland could be closed for good before the snow melts.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...lose/23909029/

Based on the numbers in this article, it looks like the out-of-state owners just left the mall to fall apart. There's a few million dollars of unpaid bills and close to several million needed to upgrade the mall to specs. The owners probably see more value in selling the land rather than committing to save the mall.

[Dexlin]

A lawyer for the mall's lenders has blamed Ashkenazy for Northland's financial and physical deterioration.


"Given the current conditions of the property, which reflects the utter lack of care that even a careless shopping mall owner should have employed, the lender is unwilling to commit any further financial resources to keeping the property open as a shopping mall," attorney James Allen of Miller, Canfield, Paddock and Stone wrote in a January court filing.

Jeeze. It really does look like this thing is gone. Either Ashkenazy gets to keep this by which point they'll finish running the thing into the ground as they obviously aren't going to do even the minimal maintenance required to keep it up and thus tenants will leave and no tenants worth their cost will move in. Or, the receiver gets it and then goes through the motions of marketing it as a shopping center before they inevitably give up. The worse thing that could happen is whoever owns it allows it to stand vacant for years while the scrappers come in at night and turn the structure into a nightmare.

The Southfield city government better be waiting in the wings to get their hand around this situation quickly one way or the other. Best case scenario is that they facilitate opening the thing up like they did Livonia, Universal, Wonderland, Meadowbrook and Tel-Twelve.

[middetres]

I think the best course of action is for Southfield to tear this down as quickly as possible. Don't drag it out in hopes of a renovation a la Tiger Stadium.


Yes, there is a lot of history there, but malls are dying everywhere, and it would be foolish to try and save it in any way, shape or form.


Save the Marshall Fredericks sculptures and anything else architecturally significant, and bulldoze the rest. Make it available for a mixed-use redevelopment.

[professorscott]

I think the best course of action is for Southfield to tear this down as quickly as possible... Save the Marshall Fredericks sculptures and anything else architecturally significant, and bulldoze the rest. Make it available for a mixed-use redevelopment.

I agree completely with your conclusion. The first sentence of yours, though, represents a near impossibility; the property is tied up in bankruptcy and nothing happens quickly in a bankruptcy. The receiver wants to secure the property and then market it as quickly as possible, but unfortunately courts get to determine how quickly is "as quickly as possible".

[hybridy]

lormax stern will pick it up and redevelop it...

[Onthe405]

I think the best course of action is for Southfield to tear this down as quickly as possible . . Save the Marshall Fredericks sculptures and anything else architecturally significant, and bulldoze the rest. Make it available for a mixed-use redevelopment.

"Mixed use" development like hotels [[Westin Michigan Inn, Stouffer's Northland Inn), "mid-century"-inspired shopping [[perhaps anchored by Macy's), and office space [[how about North Park Plaza for the name of the tower)?

The more significant underlying issue is: what was the reason this once-bustling commercial area was abandoned in the first place?

Would it suddenly become desirable simply because the buildings are shiny & new?

[iheartthed]

I agree completely with your conclusion. The first sentence of yours, though, represents a near impossibility; the property is tied up in bankruptcy and nothing happens quickly in a bankruptcy. The receiver wants to secure the property and then market it as quickly as possible, but unfortunately courts get to determine how quickly is "as quickly as possible".

If it's a liquidation the court will probably allow the property to be sold while the mess is being sorted.

[Bham1982]

The more significant underlying issue is: what was the reason this once-bustling commercial area was abandoned in the first place?

Because the metro area has a severe glut of retail, meaning that marginal locations lose in a flight to quality. 8 Mile & Greenfield is a pretty poor location for retail these days.

Would it suddenly become desirable simply because the buildings are shiny & new?

Of course not. The Target is fairly new. Age has nothing to do with it.

[313WX]

The more significant underlying issue is: what was the reason this once-bustling commercial area was abandoned in the first place?

Simple.

The demographic it previously served is either poorer [[in the wake of the Auto Industry collapse) or has moved so far out that shopping at Northland wasn't practical.

Those same underlying issues will remain even if Northland is demolished and new development is proposed.

[professorscott]

This just in: judge has approved closing the mall. Check the Freep for details.

[fastcarsandfreedom]

Been a long time coming...Macys simply accelerated the process. Lots of examples nationallly where they anchors hang on attached to malls that are dead, closed or in disrepair. Macys decision to close now appears even more logical in the context of the mall falling apart around it. Someone may correct [[please do if you have contrary information) - but I suspect Macys owns their building at Northland [[and Eastland) - they can now roll their real estate into a larger sale - makes sense for everyone. End of an era. Eastland is very much on the edge here now - it's at the point where it either starts to get better or goes into a death spiral...on the brink for sure.

[Khorasaurus]

The more significant underlying issue is: what was the reason this once-bustling commercial area was abandoned in the first place?

Let's take each element one at a time:

The mall: Indoor malls are struggling everywhere. Retail is trending more towards big box power centers, traditional downtowns, and the internet. High-end places like Somerset can survive and thrive, but beyond that it's tough. And Northland was at the bottom of the market, with very few chains other than Macy's and Target. It's hard for small businesses to survive in malls because of the lack of visibility.

The office buildings: There's too much office space in the region, and the Northland area is caught between newer buildings further up Northwestern Highway or in Troy, as well as more walkable office locations like downtown/midtown, Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc. It can't compete on either level.

The hotels: The hotel market has changed. Being next to a mall doesn't help a hotel anymore. Visitors want to stay either downtown, near attractions, near the airport, or near the road to their next destination. Northland is none of those things.

How can it succeed? The entire area needs to be re-thought from scratch. It's very hard to find your way around. Introduce a new road system that connects in a logical way and allows access to the freeways, 8 Mile, and Greenfield, with sidewalks along every street. Build new residential townhomes and small apartment buildings [[not isolated towers), and maybe even some single-family homes. Build an attractive, safe, heated transit center for the many buslines that stop there. Build a small amount of retail catering to the residents, workers and patients at Providence Hospital, and students at OCC. Connect the remaining office buildings to the new development but don't build any new ones. Don't attempt to be a regional destination. Just an attractive neighborhood that takes advantage of your remaining anchors, your central location in the region, and your transportation connections [[freeways, major roads, and transit).

[ThunderTrap]

Target is on a fast decline. They closed all their Canadian stores and declared bankruptcy north of the border, over 120 stores and over 16000 employees.

[Bham1982]

Target is on a fast decline. They closed all their Canadian stores and declared bankruptcy north of the border, over 120 stores and over 16000 employees.

The opposite is true. Target is one of the most profitable and fastest growing retailers.

Their Canadian expansion failed, for a variety of reasons, but they are extremely well-run, profitable and growing. Just like WalMart failed in Germany, you aren't ever going to bat 1000.

[Scottathew]

How can it succeed? The entire area needs to be re-thought from scratch. It's very hard to find your way around. Introduce a new road system that connects in a logical way and allows access to the freeways, 8 Mile, and Greenfield, with sidewalks along every street. Build new residential townhomes and small apartment buildings [[not isolated towers), and maybe even some single-family homes. Build an attractive, safe, heated transit center for the many buslines that stop there. Build a small amount of retail catering to the residents, workers and patients at Providence Hospital, and students at OCC. Connect the remaining office buildings to the new development but don't build any new ones. Don't attempt to be a regional destination. Just an attractive neighborhood that takes advantage of your remaining anchors, your central location in the region, and your transportation connections [[freeways, major roads, and transit).

Your plan makes a lot of sense. By adding housing and playing to the strengths of the area, they can help increase demand for other areas of Southfield.

[dtowncitylover]

Your plan makes a lot of sense.

And therefore never happen.

[DTWflyer]

My guess is that site will sit as-is until about 2017.

There will be a bunch of pie-in-the-sky development options:
-Amusement Park
-Waterpark
-Convention Center
-Horse Race Track
-Auto Race Track

And so forth.....see Summit Place Mall, Pontiac Silverdome, Bloomfield Park for large parcels of property that no one wants to readily redevelop.

[Bham1982]

My guess is that site will sit as-is until about 2017.

There will be a bunch of pie-in-the-sky development options:
-Amusement Park
-Waterpark
-Convention Center
-Horse Race Track
-Auto Race Track

And so forth.....see Summit Place Mall, Pontiac Silverdome, Bloomfield Park for large parcels of property that no one wants to readily redevelop.

Exactly. Some "international developer" will propose zeppelin rides, an international trade center, or something similarly wacky.

[Bham1982]

Your plan makes a lot of sense. By adding housing and playing to the strengths of the area, they can help increase demand for other areas of Southfield.

Adding housing to Southfield, which suffers from a glut of housing, will increase demand for housing? Don't think so. Housing is basically the least likely outcome.

[mtburb]

An Oakland County judge has given the go-ahead to close Northland Center entirely.

"Northland Center opened in March 1954. 60 years later, a judge has ordered the shopping mall to close this year.

It was one of the nation's first suburban malls but in January, Macy's announced it would close its location and Target soon followed suit. With the anchor stores leaving the center, the former symbol of Metro Detroit's power will soon be no more.

Macy's announced it was closing in January after more 50 years at the store. It's expected to close sometime in the next few months and with the judge's ruling on Wednesday, the rest of the mall will follow suit.

Circuit Judge Wendy Potts announced the closure and said tenants would receive a 30 day notice to get out. She said it was an unprecedented move to have to evict so many people, many of whom are current on rent, but she did not feel she had a choice.

"Even if all tenants were current on rent, the income would still fall short of the minimum operating costs," Potts said. "Neither the the mall's owner nor the mortgage holder, are offering to indefinitely cover the operating and maintenance costs to keep the mall functional.

The receiver would have to incur additional debt to maintain it which is not feasible given the enormous debt load. No one has come forward with a reasonable plan for maintaining the mall."

Irene Hardwick Green has owned Top of the Line Styles for 17 years inside the mall. She was in court when Potts read her ruling and was stunned.

"I thought something could be worked out but obviously it couldn't," she said. "I'm not worried about myself, i'm worried about my employees. All the employees at Northland. What will they do?"

Green asked the attorney about appealing the ruling and was told there would not be one but they may be allowed an extra couple of weeks in the mall.

Potts said in court that only 55% of the mall is occupied. She noted that they toured the building and saw that it was dilapidated and the heating and cooling system was not working properly. She said there was no way to turn the mall around and closing it was the right thing to do.

There is no mention of what the building or land will be used for but there is speculation that there are some buyers who are interested in the property. No one has come forward."

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/28...-than-60-years

[dtowncitylover]

So the same off topic talk will spill into here? Good luck stopping that!

[mtburb]

So the same off topic talk will spill into here?

Likely, to a lesser extent.