It's Over-Northland to Close

[DTWflyer]

True, but go a mile or so off Woodward in both directions south of, say, Maple, and I think there's some modest decline. Maple and John R doesn't look as good as it did 20 years ago. It sorta looks like crap.

You sure like to over-exaggerate on the amount of decline/blight/crime on anything that isn't in Birmingham, including in perfectly fine areas of Southeast Michigan.

Things change... I wrote-off the office building complex and industrial corridor along I-75 through Troy a few years ago at the depth of the recession. However, in fact its bounced-back and filled-up remarkably over the past 5 years ago. Heck, even the old Circuit City outbuilding at Oakland Mall is being rebuilt into something new.

I'd argue that Clawson in fact is doing much better than it was about 10-15 years ago. Nothing like its hey-day, but at least now it has an identify, has gotten some new investment in the downtown intersection of Main & 14 and real estate is holding is own.

[DTWflyer]

Yeah but Maple east of Crooks never looked good ever. What really looks bad to me are the subdivisions built in the 70's and 80's in Troy, Sterling Hts etc.. Pretty much the whole of Warren.

At least the old K-Mart at Maple & Livernois got redeveloped into the new movie theater. I suspect that long vacant grocery store just south of it will be redeveloped into something soon.

[Bham1982]

You sure like to over-exaggerate on the amount of decline/blight/crime on anything that isn't in Birmingham, including in perfectly fine areas of Southeast Michigan.

I think parts of Birmingham are worse too, so maybe I'm just too negative. 14 mile looks much worse. A few blocks just north of 14 and east of Woodward look worse for wear too. Parts of Bloomfield look worse too [[actually most parts of the Twp., almost all of W. Bloomfield looks worse, but not the city).

To me, when I drive Maple east of Coolidge, it looks much worse than in the past. Abandoned K-Mart for years, now being replaced by some warehouse monstrosity, lots of industrial/flex space sitting vacant, rundown retail. It doesn't look that good to me. 1960s-1970s era construction has aged very badly, and yes, even in my neck of the woods. You slowly see lower class stuff like dollars stores and cheap takeouts seeping into areas in South Oakland not right along the Woodward corridor.

I do agree that Clawson is arguably improved. It looked semi-dumpy 20 years ago, and downtown looks nice now. But areas just to the east and west along 14 mile definitely look worse [[Oakland Mall area looks awful). Those 60-era apartment corridors [[Crooks between 14 and 16) look pretty bad too.

John R. south of 14 looks like a semi-slum. I can't imagine that area being desirable over the long run.

Pretty much all of Macomb looks even worse. I drove Van Dyke recently and basically the entire street, from Warren to Utica, looks like hell. Sterling Heights is incredibly ugly.

[cmubryan]

I think parts of Birmingham are worse too, so maybe I'm just too negative. 14 mile looks much worse. A few blocks just north of 14 and east of Woodward look worse for wear too. Parts of Bloomfield look worse too [[actually most parts of the Twp., almost all of W. Bloomfield looks worse, but not the city).

To me, when I drive Maple east of Coolidge, it looks much worse than in the past. Abandoned K-Mart for years, now being replaced by some warehouse monstrosity, lots of industrial/flex space sitting vacant, rundown retail. It doesn't look that good to me. 1960s-1970s era construction has aged very badly, and yes, even in my neck of the woods. You slowly see lower class stuff like dollars stores and cheap takeouts seeping into areas in South Oakland not right along the Woodward corridor.

I do agree that Clawson is arguably improved. It looked semi-dumpy 20 years ago, and downtown looks nice now. But areas just to the east and west along 14 mile definitely look worse [[Oakland Mall area looks awful). Those 60-era apartment corridors [[Crooks between 14 and 16) look pretty bad too.

John R. south of 14 looks like a semi-slum. I can't imagine that area being desirable over the long run.

Pretty much all of Macomb looks even worse. I drove Van Dyke recently and basically the entire street, from Warren to Utica, looks like hell. Sterling Heights is incredibly ugly.

LOL....anything look good to you? BTW W Bloomfield Twp has definitely had a little bit of a retail renaissance in its "downtown" area of Maple and Orchard Lake. That corner looks a helluva lot better than it did 10 to 15 years ago.

[motz]

To me, when I drive Maple east of Coolidge, it looks much worse than in the past. Abandoned K-Mart for years, now being replaced by some warehouse monstrosity, lots of industrial/flex space sitting vacant, rundown retail. It doesn't look that good to me. 1960s-1970s era construction has aged very badly, and yes, even in my neck of the woods. You slowly see lower class stuff like dollars stores and cheap takeouts seeping into areas in South Oakland not right along the Woodward corridor.

I do agree that Clawson is arguably improved. It looked semi-dumpy 20 years ago, and downtown looks nice now. But areas just to the east and west along 14 mile definitely look worse [[Oakland Mall area looks awful). Those 60-era apartment corridors [[Crooks between 14 and 16) look pretty bad too.

Clawson is MASSIVELY different than it was even 5 years ago. It's really kind of on the upswing as a little downtown with decent schools and affordable real estate. If you think it "arguably" looks better, you obviously didn't spend much time there.

And the K-Mart you mentioned is now an MJR. Not "some warehouse monstrosity". It's super painfully obvious that you absolutely love talking shit about places you never go, considering that MJR has been FINISHED for like 6 months, and under construction for over a year. Yeah, Maple doesn't look great, but I don't think it'd ever look that great because it's not meant to be Big Beaver 2.0.

So Bham1982, please continue to talk about things you don't stay current on, I'm really curious about what you think about things you visit like, once a year.

[DTWflyer]

I think parts of Birmingham are worse too, so maybe I'm just too negative. 14 mile looks much worse. A few blocks just north of 14 and east of Woodward look worse for wear too. Parts of Bloomfield look worse too [[actually most parts of the Twp., almost all of W. Bloomfield looks worse, but not the city).

To me, when I drive Maple east of Coolidge, it looks much worse than in the past. Abandoned K-Mart for years, now being replaced by some warehouse monstrosity, lots of industrial/flex space sitting vacant, rundown retail. It doesn't look that good to me. 1960s-1970s era construction has aged very badly, and yes, even in my neck of the woods. You slowly see lower class stuff like dollars stores and cheap takeouts seeping into areas in South Oakland not right along the Woodward corridor.

I do agree that Clawson is arguably improved. It looked semi-dumpy 20 years ago, and downtown looks nice now. But areas just to the east and west along 14 mile definitely look worse [[Oakland Mall area looks awful). Those 60-era apartment corridors [[Crooks between 14 and 16) look pretty bad too.

John R. south of 14 looks like a semi-slum. I can't imagine that area being desirable over the long run.

Pretty much all of Macomb looks even worse. I drove Van Dyke recently and basically the entire street, from Warren to Utica, looks like hell. Sterling Heights is incredibly ugly.

Debby Downer? Seriously, everything in your mind seems to be in decline, looks worse, etc. I'm not sure what to say to that, but there is a lot more going on these parts than just during the causal, periodic drive-by.

I do agree, that much of the 1960s-1970s era construction, primarily commerical and industrial properties, have not aged well and the architecture has not served the test of time. However, due to the development patterns and suburban growth of this region, it heavily dominates the 1st & 2nd ring suburbs of the region. Troy, Southfield, Warren, Livonia all have a lot of this. This isn't just a Detroit thing either - there are plenty of places in suburbs around even booming places like Denver that have not aged well either.

Birmingham - I used to live in that area north of 14 Mile & West of Woodward, and just went on run through there this morning. There are a significant number of tear-downs/reconstructions going on in that area. That area for decades has always had the smallest houses in Birmingham. Big deal. Heck, Birmingham has a half-dead 1960s era strip mall on Adams Rd [[where A&P and then Shore used to be).

Dollar Stores and cheap take-out are what people want. Obviously there is a market so they go in.

The Troy Motor Mall, most of the dealerships have heavily remodeled [[in many cases forced to by the manufacturers).

Oakland Mall and that whole area, well if you've been by there in the month of December, it is definitely one busy place around the holidays.

[Danny]

Who's to blame from Northland Mall's demise?

1. More low income black Detroiters [[pacified under welfare, WIC and food stamps) have moved from their ghetto hoods to Southfield, Oak Park, R.O.T. also called Royal Oak Township and Lathrup Village.

2. Constant thefts from mostly black males donning Trayvon Martins.

3. Putting up black owned ghetto marts. There's even a tattoo shop there. A tattoo shop!!!

I not blaming any of those folks, but the folks who build those areas and left simply because black folks [[mostly from Detroit) are moving in by the thousands.

Now a some big [[possibly) black mega church is coming to the old JCPenney anchor Building! Sounds silly to put a church next to a den of thieves. After service folks will be saying 'Praise the Lord, let's go shopping.'

Eastland Mall will be next to die in 30 years. Close that mall up and put some gov't subsidized housing and some neighborhoods would end up look like Brewster Projects by the year 2070.

Northland Mall is truly an historic mall, a representation of modern regional automation alley shopping district. Putting trashy stores will not work. It chases middle income customers away.

Save our piece of suburban Detroit history, Save Northland Mall.

[cmubryan]

Who's to blame from Northland Mall's demise?

1. More low income black Detroiters [[pacified under welfare, WIC and food stamps) have moved from their ghetto hoods to Southfield, Oak Park, R.O.T. also called Royal Oak Township and Lathrup Village.

2. Constant thefts from mostly black males donning Trayvon Martins.

3. Putting up black owned ghetto marts. There's even a tattoo shop there. A tattoo shop!!!

I not blaming any of those folks, but the folks who build those areas and left simply because black folks [[mostly from Detroit) are moving in by the thousands.

Now a some big [[possibly) black mega church is coming to the old JCPenney anchor Building! Sounds silly to put a church next to a den of thieves. After service folks will be saying 'Praise the Lord, let's go shopping.'

Eastland Mall will be next to die in 30 years. Close that mall up and put some gov't subsidized housing and some neighborhoods would end up look like Brewster Projects by the year 2070.

Northland Mall is truly an historic mall, a representation of modern regional automation alley shopping district. Putting trashy stores will not work. It chases middle income customers away.

Save our piece of suburban Detroit history, Save Northland Mall.

If Northland could attract some mainstream stores and lose the "ghetto image" my family would be avid shoppers as this is the closest mall to our Huntington Woods home. If I even mention going to the Macy's or Target there, my wife rolls her eyes and refuses to go. It is a shame because Northland is relatively close to some decent areas. I grew up going to Northland with my parents in the 80s and while at that time I knew to stay close to my parents and keep an extra eye out it was still a somewhat vibrant mall with maintstream stores.

[313WX]

If Northland could attract some mainstream stores and lose the "ghetto image" my family would be avid shoppers as this is the closest mall to our Huntington Woods home.

Northland can't attract these "mainstream stores" and lose the "ghetto image" if shoppers such as yourself refuse to go there.

And that's really the issue, as the lion share of the shoppers such as yourself have moved so far out that they go to the newer/nicer malls closer to their new homes.

[DetroitBoy]

I found some very interesting information about the history of Northland and several of the malls that were built during the Cold War era. Designed by Victor Greun, many of the malls of that era were built outside of an 8 mile radius of a city center in the event of a nuclear attack. As it turns out, 8 miles was the blast range for nuclear bombs of that era. Greun designed several malls across the country based on the same concept of a open area in the center with two anchor stores in a multi-level structure where the lower level could be used as a fall out shelter in the event of a nuclear attack. Northland's design is around this concept. The lower level has multiple fall out shelters which at one time included supplies. The concept also was built around the area being a self contained city with housing, shopping, churches and hospitals all adjacent to the mall in order to facilitate the continuation of cities in the event of an attack which destroyed the central downtown. Green also designed Southdale in Minneapolis with this concept. The links below give more details on the concept of the malls of that area and photos of the Northland fall out shelter.

So I guess Northland, Eastland and Westland all have significance in the area's Cold War history:

http://curbed.com/archives/2014/06/1...ican-malls.php

http://www.michigancivildefense.com/...outhfield.html

[mtburb]

I found some very interesting information about the history of Northland and several of the malls that were built during the Cold War era. Designed by Victor Greun, many of the malls of that era were built outside of an 8 mile radius of a city center in the event of a nuclear attack. As it turns out, 8 miles was the blast range for nuclear bombs of that era. Greun designed several malls across the country based on the same concept of a open area in the center with two anchor stores in a multi-level structure where the lower level could be used as a fall out shelter in the event of a nuclear attack. Northland's design is around this concept. The lower level has multiple fall out shelters which at one time included supplies. The concept also was built around the area being a self contained city with housing, shopping, churches and hospitals all adjacent to the mall in order to facilitate the continuation of cities in the event of an attack which destroyed the central downtown. Green also designed Southdale in Minneapolis with this concept. The links below give more details on the concept of the malls of that area and photos of the Northland fall out shelter.

So I guess Northland, Eastland and Westland all have significance in the area's Cold War history:

http://curbed.com/archives/2014/06/1...ican-malls.php

http://www.michigancivildefense.com/...outhfield.html

Wasn't Westland built just after the nuclear fears had calmed mostly? I believe this is why Southland wasn't built with a basement.

[DetroitBoy]

Wasn't Westland built just after the nuclear fears had calmed mostly? I believe this is why Southland wasn't built with a basement.

From what I can tell, northland was opened on 1954. Eastland in 1957. Westland in 1965 and Southland in 1970. Greun did design all of them. Certainly by 1970 most of those fears were mitigated by our strength in missile technology. I believe in the 1950s we were immersed in the arms race and may have been perceived as running behind the Soviets.

Interesting background on the formation of the city of Westland: Westland Center played a role in local history. During the early 1960s, the city of Livonia planned to annex the part of Nankin Township in which the mall was to be built. The shopping center eventually opened in 1965, joining Northland and Eastland malls in other Detroit Metro cities. In reaction to Livonia's annexation attempts, the people of Nankin Township voted to incorporate the remainder of the township as a city on May 16, 1966, known as the City of Westland, naming it after the mall.

[Lowell]

And here's why Northland is closing...

In June, Newton, Mass.-based New England Development made news when it announced plans to construct a 325,000-square-foot outlet center in Romulus near Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

And another outlet center project is coming together in Chesterfield Township. Birmingham-based Center Management Services Inc. and Cincinnati-based Jeffrey R. Anderson Real Estate Inc. are developing the Outlets of Southeast Michigan in the township on the east side of I-94 and north of M-59 on land they purchased four years ago.

Oddly enough this reminds me a bit of the Northland before it got encased.



New England Development plans to build an outlet center near Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

[gazhekwe]

It does look like original Northland. Everything old is new again. Is this what happens when "dated" grows up?

[mtburb]

And here's why Northland is closing...



Oddly enough this reminds me a bit of the Northland before it got encased.



New England Development plans to build an outlet center near Detroit Metropolitan Airport.

You better check again to see if Southfield and Romulus are that close together.

[Hypestyles]

if Northland closes, this clears the way for a new, urban-based 22nd-century shopping friendly mall in Detroit proper.

[Dexlin]

Who's to blame from Northland Mall's demise?

1. More low income black Detroiters [[pacified under welfare, WIC and food stamps) have moved from their ghetto hoods to Southfield, Oak Park, R.O.T. also called Royal Oak Township and Lathrup Village.

2. Constant thefts from mostly black males donning Trayvon Martins.

3. Putting up black owned ghetto marts. There's even a tattoo shop there. A tattoo shop!!

Oh, that's not cartoonishly racist, at all. Not at all.

Merry Christmas to you, too, Danny.

[Lowell]

You better check again to see if Southfield and Romulus are that close together.

I meant that in the sense of new malls squeezing out in older malls as opposed to setting up across the street. It's a pass it down the line kind of thing with the old malls at the end getting pushed off the table. There is just so much foot traffic trade in the region to share with online continuing to eat everybody's lunch.

[nain rouge]

I think Bham has a [[gulp) point. When you have too much real estate for the population, it's easier to move on than thoughtfully reinvest. If look at old pictures of the 8-9 Mile & Van Dyke area, for example, it was actually very attractive.

Over time, however, the original design of that particular commercial strip was scrapped in favor of bigger parking lots and cheap buildings that heavily favored function over form. The end result was the destruction of a neighborhood's very fabric - its essence - at a subtle but ultimately very perceptible level. Now, there's little to no appeal left in that section of Van Dyke.

Which, of course, stands in contrast to the original goal of making the Van Dyke corridor more appealing to the tastes of later generations. After all, Van Dyke had to compete with the very successful strip malls seen on Big Beaver or John R. So, in a way, it makes sense that developers added more parking and built budget versions of popular suburban architecture. Where developers failed in their thinking was assuming that a hodgepodge of '80s/'90s suburbia and classic '40s storefronts would ever be desirable.

It wasn't and isn't. The people that wanted modern suburbia moved to modern suburbs. The people that wanted neighborhoods with corner stores and walkable retail districts moved to neighborhoods that could still provide a semblance of that, like Ferndale. In my opinion, it's very difficult to successfully change the design of a neighborhood once it's been built. You can update, sure, but if you ignore the original character of the neighborhood while doing so, it's almost never good.

I had family that grew up in Hazel Park, and I can tell you, it was an attractive area at one time. It wasn't Birmingham, but it was a nice, old-fashioned middle class suburb. This idea that Warren and Hazel Park were always dumps is revisionist history. The transformation is the logical conclusion of poor regional planning.

[canuck]

I can't get over the throwaway attitude we have toward architecture that didn't cater to a automotive ins and outs in our cities.

Another thing is that those [[often) fancy and wonderful storefronts from the 1890's thru about 1940 sometimes need brick repointing, a change of windows and doors but often times they have been disguised in shitty materials and blandified beyond hope. In Montreal, the city let a lot of so-called renos be applied to beautiful buildings for two generations and raked in taxes on these with total abandon. Here are some buildings on Ste Catherine street in the west end of downtown that was massacred in the seventies because the slumlord didn't want to rehab the facade, and probably greased some guy at city hall to approve it.

[313WX]

I had family that grew up in Hazel Park, and I can tell you, it was an attractive area at one time. It wasn't Birmingham, but it was a nice, old-fashioned middle class suburb. This idea that Warren and Hazel Park were always dumps is revisionist history. The transformation is the logical conclusion of poor regional planning.

Not exactly as far as the bolded.

The problem with Hazel Park and Warren is that they were heavily dependent on the good paying warehouse and factory jobs that, since the early 1980s, have since been automated out of existence or offshored.

So now, in those cities, you essentially have a generation or two of government-dependent people who consider the trailer trash/hillbilly lifestyle "normal," similar to what happened in much of Detroit and the ghetto lifestyle those who remain consider "normal" when its factory/warehouse jobs disappeared.

That said, those who could afford to leave, or chose to leave, DID flee to the Shelby Townships and Birminghams of today.

[nain rouge]

Not exactly as far as the bolded.

The problem with Hazel Park and Warren is that they were heavily dependent on the good paying warehouse and factory jobs that, since the early 1980s, have since been automated out of existence or offshored.

In many other areas, old neighborhoods are able to transform to meet new needs. I lived in Richmond, Virginia for awhile, and there were tons of historic neighborhoods in that city that were somehow able to survive and do well despite a series of dramatic changes in demographics and economic conditions. Even though all the tobacco warehouses and other traditional forms of industry had left, still the neighborhoods prospered.

But in Metro Detroit, a factory closes and it's usually curtains for the neighborhood. Why is that?

[313WX]

But in Metro Detroit, a factory closes and it's usually curtains for the neighborhood. Why is that?[/COLOR]

I have my theories [[incompetent leadership, voter blocs that are afraid of change, etc.), but they're not pretty.

[Willi]

Times change, demographic mix changes,
and other unique newer opportunities exist 2015.

[Bham1982]

But in Metro Detroit, a factory closes and it's usually curtains for the neighborhood. Why is that?

In part, you're comparing apples to oranges. Metro Detroit doesn't have particularly "good bones". There aren't alot of 19th century warehouse neighborhoods, or brownstone areas, or Victorian cottages. We mostly have working class, mass-produced housing. We're more LA than Brooklyn or Boston.

It would be very hard to imagine a scenario where a Hazel Park or a South Warren or a Gratiot/7 Mile could ever be gentrified. The best that could be hoped for would be some immigrant group comes in and makes the area vibrant, but it would still be a fairly unattractive, utilitarian area devoid of charm.