New Businesses Coming to Downtown Thanks to Dan Gilbert/Bedrock

[davewindsor]

I think you're forgetting about some buildings. There are plenty of buildings that, while nowhere near empty, have plenty of space available - Ford, Buhl, Cadillac Tower, Guardian, 150 W. Jefferson, etc. And then there are buildings that have space on the market, but empty or nearly empty, like the Marquette Building that recently sold. Hell, One Detroit Center is like 90% occupied, but that 10% is something like 100,000 square feet [[those are both estimates). And then you have Gilbert bringing buildings back onto the market but not yet filling them up [[the Federal Reserve is a great example). It doesn't need the First National to have secret empty space to add up to 20% vacancy.

The FN and Penob may have been built at the same time, but the current owner of the FN has put money into it and the Penob has had consecutive owners treat it like crap. I agree that the Penobscot SHOULD be the more desirable building, but right now it isn't.

Oh, and related to that, I saw an article recently that pointed out that most of the Penobscot complex's vacant space is not in the iconic tower, but in the two smaller buildings.

The article said 20.9% vacancy excluding the ones that are virtually empty. If One Detroit Center is 10% vacant. Ren centre is full. The Guardian is not going to be included since it's a government building. So, something has got to be bringing that number up. What buildings have a large vacancy rate in midtown? The largest chunk of those office vacancies are in downtown and they've gotta come from somewhere. And they're not calculating the virtually empty buildings. Last time I walked into the First National, there was barely any traffic there. Doesn't look like a full building. 1.5% vacancy in the First National, while 20.9% in the city? Ridiculous. The rate is somewhere up there with the Penobscott. It's just a marketing play on scarcity; otherwise, show me where it states "the vacancy rate in the First National is 1.5%". It doesn't even say the vacancy rate. It just says available. If pressed, they could conveniently say the rest is under renovation to keep the rate down.

[Khorasaurus]

The article said 20.9% vacancy excluding the ones that are virtually empty. If One Detroit Center is 10% vacant. Ren centre is full. The Guardian is not going to be included since it's a government building. So, something has got to be bringing that number up. What buildings have a large vacancy rate in midtown? The largest chunk of those office vacancies are in downtown and they've gotta come from somewhere. And they're not calculating the virtually empty buildings. Last time I walked into the First National, there was barely any traffic there. Doesn't look like a full building. 1.5% vacancy in the First National, while 20.9% in the city? Ridiculous. The rate is somewhere up there with the Penobscott. It's just a marketing play on scarcity; otherwise, show me where it states "the vacancy rate in the First National is 1.5%". It doesn't even say the vacancy rate. It just says available. If pressed, they could conveniently say the rest is under renovation to keep the rate down.

I'm done doing research only to have you repeat the same thing with no basis for it. Go ahead and believe there's top secret vacant space in the First National Building if you want.

[Mackinaw]

This is all....pretty dumb. Doesn't really matter to me where within the CBD the leasable class A space is-- the bottom line is what is the percentage of leasable space that's not filled, are there any big chunks for major tenants [[or are they all relatively small), and how much more leasable class A space will come online soon thanks to completed renovations? This all plays into the question of whether we'll see new office towers built anytime soon.

[Scottathew]

Finally, on Jos. A Bank's, I really think the problem is that the Ren Cen is just an awful place to be a retailer. The Wintergarden is pretty, but the upper floors are dead ends, which is horrible retail design. Restaurants, fast food, and convenience stores like CVS work because of the many office workers and hotel guests, but people don't go to the Ren Cen to shop.

One of the big issues with the RenCen is that there are a lot of barriers to get to the retail.

1) The barrier of the unknown - how you to know that there is even retail there. You could drive by it every day and not know that.

2) The barrier of a confusing layout - I've been there a few times and I still have a hard time know what floor things are on, some of the floors are labeled with letters, and handicap accessibility is TERRIBLE in this building.

3) The barrier of Jefferson Avenue - Unless you RUN, you can't even cross the street in a single light cycle.

[Mackinaw]

3) The barrier of Jefferson Avenue - Unless you RUN, you can't even cross the street in a single light cycle.

Yep. This needs to be corrected ASAP. Seemingly among the low-hanging fruit for the city's new urban planner.

[Khorasaurus]

This is all....pretty dumb. Doesn't really matter to me where within the CBD the leasable class A space is-- the bottom line is what is the percentage of leasable space that's not filled, are there any big chunks for major tenants [[or are they all relatively small), and how much more leasable class A space will come online soon thanks to completed renovations? This all plays into the question of whether we'll see new office towers built anytime soon.

My 2 cents on this - new office high rises are probably a ways off. Most of the space is scattered in various buildings, but there is still plenty of space, and companies will likely just locate in several buildings [[like Quicken Loans did).

If we're going to see new high rises in the next decade [[and I think we will), they will almost certainly be residential. But even that won't happen until we've exhausted our supply of historic vacant buildings .

[ABetterDetroit]

Office space demand is on a upward trend thats good. Residential demand is high, that's fantastic. One can fuel the other, supply more residential, then office and street level retail will continue to fill in.

[davewindsor]

I'm done doing research only to have you repeat the same thing with no basis for it. Go ahead and believe there's top secret vacant space in the First National Building if you want.

What research?? You have no basis for saying the vacancy rate is 1.5% in a high vacancy area unless you can show me a specific statistic anywhere that says "the vacancy rate is 1.5%" in the First National. There's nothing top secret about it. It's a devious marketing ploy and it just takes common sense to uncover it.

[Scottathew]

Office space demand is on a upward trend thats good. Residential demand is high, that's fantastic. One can fuel the other, supply more residential, then office and street level retail will continue to fill in.

I totally agree here. You can't artificially create retail, the demand must be there.

Karmanos, BCBSM, GM, and Gilbert started the snowball of jobs rolling, now the housing demand is there, retail is hopefully the next step.

[Armin]

What research?? You have no basis for saying the vacancy rate is 1.5% in a high vacancy area unless you can show me a specific statistic anywhere that says "the vacancy rate is 1.5%" in the First National. There's nothing top secret about it. It's a devious marketing ploy and it just takes common sense to uncover it.

Dave, I'm sorry man, but you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. I work in the First National Bldg a few days a week, and I go from floor to floor when I'm there. That building is packed from top to bottom. 1.5% vacancy is probably accurate..not just some devious marketing gimmick.

[Danny]

I applaud Dan Gilbert's vision for a regional [[Gilberttown) Detroit. If Dan Gilbert were to buy up buildings in Downtown Detroit under Coleman A. Young, He will cuss at him and put him out! However I'm glad that Gilbert brought in businesses at the right place at a right time.

[Scottathew]

My 2 cents on this - new office high rises are probably a ways off. Most of the space is scattered in various buildings, but there is still plenty of space, and companies will likely just locate in several buildings [[like Quicken Loans did).

If we're going to see new high rises in the next decade [[and I think we will), they will almost certainly be residential. But even that won't happen until we've exhausted our supply of historic vacant buildings .

I agree with this here for the most part.

So far the only new construction we've seen in the Gilbert era is to address something there was a lack of, parking.

Although, if Ilitch comes through, we'll have a new 7 story building. I'm hopeful, but I need to see Ilitch deliver on some of the many promises before I trust him.

[stasu1213]

I applaud Dan Gilbert's vision for a regional [[Gilberttown) Detroit. If Dan Gilbert were to buy up buildings in Downtown Detroit under Coleman A. Young, He will cuss at him and put him out! However I'm glad that Gilbert brought in businesses at the right place at a right time.

Danny, most of the buildings that were purchased by Gilbert would had been too costly in Coleman Youngs era. Most of them still had occupants in them even though the buildings were crumbling and half empty but the asking price for those buildings would had been much for Gilbert or anyone with the loot at that time to gobble up

[davewindsor]

Dave, I'm sorry man, but you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. I work in the First National Bldg a few days a week, and I go from floor to floor when I'm there. That building is packed from top to bottom. 1.5% vacancy is probably accurate..not just some devious marketing gimmick.

Sorry man, I'm not taking your word for it. If you work there, how do I know you're not part of this devious marketing gimmick? Show me the government data that says it's 1.5% vacant.

[Mackinaw]

"Government data?" Are you just trolling at this point or being serious? Where might one find such data?

[davewindsor]

"Government data?" Are you just trolling at this point or being serious? Where might one find such data?

The government has to have it for tax purposes. It's there. So, you find it if you want to prove me wrong. I've already found you unbiased statistics on the Penobscott and COD.

[RO_Resident]

The government has to have it for tax purposes. It's there. So, you find it if you want to prove me wrong. I've already found you unbiased statistics on the Penobscott and COD.

CoStar is the gold standard for finding vacancy rates. Subscriptions to their services is pretty spendy.

You could use assessing records for finding occupancy rates, but there are real issues using the data. First, tax records are lagging indicators. If a company closes up shop, it could take up to a year for the tax records to show that an office is vacant. Properties are only assessed once a year in Michigan, unless there is some sort of transaction that would trigger a reassessment.

For example, look at the tax record for 1000 Town Center in Southfield. Try to make heads or tails of the vacancy rate based on the parcel records.
https://is.bsasoftware.com/bsa.is/As...30100&unit=272

[Mackinaw]

Well, as the guy who already said this discussion is pretty dumb, I am happy to settle with eyewitness observation over trying to make since of dated tax records, as RO_Resident points out. I encourage you to settle with that much, too, davewindsor.

[MAcc]

[Gilbert's] just manipulating numbers, twisting words and creating illusions.

The Detroit way, fake it till you make it. Same old tired story, and the same reason nobody from outside Detroit will touch the town with a 100 foot pole.

[MAcc]

Sorry man, I'm not taking your word for it. If you work there, how do I know you're not part of this devious marketing gimmick?

I recall reading apartment brokers working for a DG-affiliated company snipe craigslist listed apartments near/on their turf to control the rental market; and either taking them off the market or re-listing them for higher. Midtown/dtown just feels like creepy smoke & mirrors to me. I see very few actually living there that aren't Wayne State students. And for a town so buzzing, I don't see any residential foot traffic outside of a ball game. Visit Chicago, Grand Rapids or DC in the summer and tell me midtown/dtown doesn't feel creepy and vacant as ever.

[southen]

I recall reading apartment brokers working for a DG-affiliated company snipe craigslist listed apartments near/on their turf to control the rental market; and either taking them off the market or re-listing them for higher. Midtown/dtown just feels like creepy smoke & mirrors to me. I see very few actually living there that aren't Wayne State students. And for a town so buzzing, I don't see any residential foot traffic outside of a ball game. Visit Chicago, Grand Rapids or DC in the summer and tell me midtown/dtown doesn't feel creepy and vacant as ever.

source please otherwise you are just trolling as usual. as a downtown resident for several years now things have been changing rather visibly. then again i dont come to this site with an agenda...

[stasu1213]

Joseph A. Bank would do better on Woodward probably in the Compuware building in it's Woodward storefront. The Ren Cen is just out of the way as an island unto itself. The Ren Cen or GM headquarters act as just an office building that operates 9 to 5 instead of a tourist attraction like The World Trade Center and the Sears Tower were. Ren Cen does little to accommodate for tourists as well as residents shopping needs

[MAcc]

source please otherwise you are just trolling as usual. as a downtown resident for several years now things have been changing rather visibly. then again i dont come to this site with an agenda...

You do have an agenda, you live [[and work) downtown.

And sorry, I don't have a source. I don't bookmark juicy curbed Detroit comments.

[southen]

You do have an agenda, you live [[and work) downtown.

And sorry, I don't have a source. I don't bookmark juicy curbed Detroit comments.

being able to make unbiased observation has nothing to do with living or working downtown. i actually get to see the progress first hand and get to see how much further the city needs to go, unlike you who enjoys posting "juicy curbed comments" and trying to pass them off as articles to further your trolling. i cant wait for your next made up pearl of wisdom that you maybe read on the comment section of curbed at some point. you just ooze credibility.

[Dexlin]

Quite frankly, after one's discovered who the trolls are you've gotten your point across, you just have to kind of drop them. There are two people in this thread who should not be engaged seriously, one of them is epic for their long-time trolling using reflexive cynicism.