Defund the DPS!

[English]

English:
How do you feel about school uniforms?

I wore a uniform in a Detroit Public School way back in the 1980s. I think they're window dressing without real systemic reform, but I'm not opposed to them.

[English]

English: I really enjoyed reading your posts and I can relate to what you've said. I once asked my students [[who keep in contact with me long after they graduate) WHY they won't leave me alone [[it was all in fun...they just won't let me have any peace, my lunch hour is spent with kids, my prep is spent with kids, and they email me constantly). They responded that I "keep it real". I am not the only one. They really don't like the teachers who are "easy". They said they like the teachers who challenge them and don't bullshit them. I tell them they are fighting an uphill battle and they have to work harder than most because of their environment, their educational background, and the stereotypes of urban youth. I can say I have the best kids [[I know we all say that) and that I am lucky to have been a part of their lives.

I admire you, DT, for your persistence in a system that does not value your worth. My life's goal is to help make a system where teachers like you will be supported and appreciated.

[English]

English, I strongly indentify with this paragraph. I said it somewhere in either this thread or the other on DPS, but students need to grasp the idea that the world is much larger and more important than they are accustomed to thinking of it as. And, yes, telling students the truth about the real ways of the world will be absolutely essential in getting them engaged in an honest way and not simply repeating routines.

But, with all of that said, don't you think that before you can even get them to this point that there HAS to be structure? I've resigned myself to the fact that while we're undergoing this revolution, distateful things such as "teaching to the test", have to be maintained to offer some kind of structure. Detroit's numbers on this national standardized test don't have any excuse. Even while you're in the midst of changing or dismantling the game, you need to be able to play the game at hand, and DPS and the rest aren't even trying. Look at the question about simple subtraction; I don't care if you are rebelling against the system [[and, I don't think that I'm as convinced as you are that many of these students actually understand that's what they are doing), there is absolutely no reason why a question like that should have been answered incorrectly. This isn't even about the psuedo-science of IQ; you could be borderline mentally retarded and still be able to work through it. This is about utter carelessness on the part of the students, plain and simple. When you're told that the results are close to as if the students had simply guessed them, well, you begin to realize that most of them were simply guessing them for seeming shits-and-giggles.

So, yes, we can't keep lying to the students about the poor aim of our current educational system. But, in the very same vein, we can't continue to excuse to what amounts to pure and utter intellectual laziness, just because parts of the current game we can a system of education is blatantly rigged. In this world, regardless of how fair it is or is not, you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, period.

There absolutely has to be structure, MichMatters. Telling kids the truth doesn't come at the expense of teaching them discipline or socializing them into the norms of middle-class American society.

There is protest, and there is protest. Audre Lorde once said that one can't use the master's tools to dismantle the master's house. I agree only to a point. Usually once people acquire the master's tools, they believe they are the master. I have the master's tools, and I know that the master is my enemy, and yours too if you are a working person in this country. I plan to use his tools to smash his house, and have long planned to do so.

I have always taught my students the history of education in the modern world. The only times where people felt their oppression and desperate conditions lift is when their leaders were completely socialized into the norms of power, and were able to turn those norms against the powerful. Frederick Douglass understood this -- the "What to the slave is your Fourth of July?" speech displays a sophisticated understanding of the American metanarrative, just as Olaudah Equiano, Phillis Wheatley, and others could take their masters' Christian theology and turn it into a call for humanization and freedom. All of the mothers and fathers of the Civil Rights Movement were well-read in the Western tradition. I told my students at Cass that reading African American lit was a foundation, but it wasn't enough. They needed to read the canon NOT to mimic the values they contain, but to subvert them.

There is rigor in that. There is structure in that... but it is NOT rigor and structure for rigor and structure's sake. There is also a lot of hope in it.

[mwilbert]

I think English overstates the successes to this point, and underestimates the difficulties of replicating them widely. I don't think that means that it shouldn't be attempted, but I am pretty sure it has no hope of success within the framework of the DPS.

That said, if the DPS are going to continue to exist, undesirable as I think that would be, I would like to see them make the attempt. I would be overjoyed to be wrong.

[English]

I think English overstates the successes to this point, and underestimates the difficulties of replicating them widely. I don't think that means that it shouldn't be attempted, but I am pretty sure it has no hope of success within the framework of the DPS.

Mwilbert, if I am overstating the successes of the Detroit Public Schools, then how am I able to engage you in conversation? You are speaking to a Detroit Public Schools graduate. All of my formal K-12 education was in that district long after white flight, and I did not only attend magnet schools. I always tested in the 95th percentile or above. My PSAT, SAT, ACT, and GRE scores were off the charts. No one outside of Detroit or my historically African-American university contributed to my learning before graduate school. How is that possible? According to conventional wisdom, I do not exist. Yet I can assure you that many thousands of students like me exist and are absolutely thriving in adult life. Not all of us had great parents. One of my friends who is an MD had a single parent who was HIV positive and had other issues. My mom and extended family were great, but my dad died from alcohol and drug abuse, and my aunt was murdered. I have dozens of stories like that. But we succeeded. Why?

Why?

It is obvious in our cases, something worked. We were not smarter or better than our peers, but we were able to become educated. Not all of my friends who are college educated went to the examination schools either. Something obviously went on. What was it?

What was it?

While I agree that DPS cheerleaders often overstate the case, the district's worst naysayers make it seem that none of the schools are educating anyone. This has never been the case. I had a world class education in the Detroit Public Schools and at my HBCU, and that was borne out when I had to directly compete with people who always attended "better" schools. There is no reason why the kind of education that I had cannot be replicated. I am an inner-city kid who made good on nothing but a lot of hope and promise, and who worked very hard. I am not special. There can be several million like me and thousands of my peers if we only had the will.

Neither do I underestimate the difficulties, as all of my posts in this and any other thread indicate. That is not a fair or accurate assessment of anything I have presented here. Frankly, when I consider the totality of my life experiences as an urban kid and professional expertise as an urban educator, it is insulting and even angering that you would ever dare think I would be glib about something that is absolutely a matter of life and death. Also, please note that my posts on DYes are an attempt to make casual conversation. They are neither policy documents nor curricular measures. They aren't even press releases.

This is my life's work. I've spent the better part of this decade traveling, researching, and learning about what works not just here, but all over the Anglophone world. I have also spent it in the trenches of urban education. Have you been there alongside us, or are you speaking from an outside perspective?

I invite you to dig in and work with urban youth. I know you will be pleasantly surprised at the potential that you will find there.

[ziggyselbin]

Mwilbert, if I am overstating the successes of the Detroit Public Schools, then how am I able to engage you in conversation? You are speaking to a Detroit Public Schools graduate. All of my formal K-12 education was in that district long after white flight, and I did not only attend magnet schools. I always tested in the 95th percentile or above. My PSAT, SAT, ACT, and GRE scores were off the charts. No one outside of Detroit or my historically African-American university contributed to my learning before graduate school. How is that possible? According to conventional wisdom, I do not exist. Yet I can assure you that many thousands of students like me exist and are absolutely thriving in adult life. Not all of us had great parents. One of my friends who is an MD had a single parent who was HIV positive and had other issues. My mom and extended family were great, but my dad died from alcohol and drug abuse, and my aunt was murdered. I have dozens of stories like that. But we succeeded. Why?

Why?

It is obvious in our cases, something worked. We were not smarter or better than our peers, but we were able to become educated. Not all of my friends who are college educated went to the examination schools either. Something obviously went on. What was it?

What was it?

While I agree that DPS cheerleaders often overstate the case, the district's worst naysayers make it seem that none of the schools are educating anyone. This has never been the case. I had a world class education in the Detroit Public Schools and at my HBCU, and that was borne out when I had to directly compete with people who always attended "better" schools. There is no reason why the kind of education that I had cannot be replicated. I am an inner-city kid who made good on nothing but a lot of hope and promise, and who worked very hard. I am not special. There can be several million like me and thousands of my peers if we only had the will.

Neither do I underestimate the difficulties, as all of my posts in this and any other thread indicate. That is not a fair or accurate assessment of anything I have presented here. Frankly, when I consider the totality of my life experiences as an urban kid and professional expertise as an urban educator, it is insulting and even angering that you would ever dare think I would be glib about something that is absolutely a matter of life and death. Also, please note that my posts on DYes are an attempt to make casual conversation. They are neither policy documents nor curricular measures. They aren't even press releases.

This is my life's work. I've spent the better part of this decade traveling, researching, and learning about what works not just here, but all over the Anglophone world. I have also spent it in the trenches of urban education. Have you been there alongside us, or are you speaking from an outside perspective?

I invite you to dig in and work with urban youth. I know you will be pleasantly surprised at the potential that you will find there.

Nice post english. Here is someone I think you would have liked. I was close to him. He was a product of Detroit schools.



http://www.annarbor.com/news/educato...eer-principal/

[English]

Ziggy, this man was a legend here in Washtenaw County. I didn't have the chance to meet him, but I have heard of him. Kudos to you for honoring him.

[65memories]

First of all, English, I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate your insights on this forum, especially regarding education. I rememberr the trauma you went through when you lost your job with DPS and your recent posts underscore what a loss that was for the district. I wish you much success in your post-graduate studies and hope your research will help make a difference.
I recently retired after 40 plus years with DPS, both as a teacher and administrator. I was fortunate to know so many dedicated educators, teachers like English and Detroit Teacher, who give of themselves on a daily basis. Like English, I can provide many, many success stories where students have gone on to successfully compete in the real world. I still stay in touch with many of those students today. I was fortunate to end my career under the leadership of Linda Spight, who was the most innovative, competent administrator I have known during that four-decade span. She took a school, overcrowded [[2300 students in a building built for 1800), in need of constant repair and threatened by outsiders, and consistently placed it at the top of all comprehensive high schools in the city [[schools where you don't apply for admission; these schools have to take everyone). She put in many long hours and sacrificed her time greatly to maintain that accomplishment. Her leadership and vision were key. When she left and the leadership strucure at the school changed dramatically, the school changed with it...for the worse.
I first noticed a decline in the true attention to needs of schools in the 1990's. That decline became worse with the State-issued appointment of the Reform Board. Beginning with the Snead administration and continuing into the Reform years, real educational support and change became a prisoner of petty politics and self-interests and so achievement and structure took a back seat. We no longer could get basic repairs done, things like locks being changed or door handles replaced. We no longer got books or supplies on time. When I was a teacher, I was regularly evaluated at least twice a year [[and sometimes more), by both school-based and Schools Center-based administrators. All of that began to change in the early 90's [[although many, like former school board member Darneau Stewart, argued that the decline took place in 1972 when Detroit was the 4th largest district in the nation , but faced a 101 million dollar deficit). Until the schools address the issues already stressed in this thread, things like class-size and school-size, parent input, textbook and supplemental need accountability and school-based decision-making, progress will never occur.

[English]

First of all, English, I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate your insights on this forum, especially regarding education. I rememberr the trauma you went through when you lost your job with DPS and your recent posts underscore what a loss that was for the district. I wish you much success in your post-graduate studies and hope your research will help make a difference.

Thank you, 65memories, for your hard work, service, and sacrifice! My greatest heroes in my life were my Detroit Public Schools teachers. Words cannot tell about how much the men and women who taught me in Detroit meant to me. When I went to college and had to choose a major and a career, all I wanted initially was to be one of you.

I recently retired after 40 plus years with DPS, both as a teacher and administrator. I was fortunate to know so many dedicated educators, teachers like English and Detroit Teacher, who give of themselves on a daily basis. Like English, I can provide many, many success stories where students have gone on to successfully compete in the real world. I still stay in touch with many of those students today. I was fortunate to end my career under the leadership of Linda Spight, who was the most innovative, competent administrator I have known during that four-decade span. She took a school, overcrowded [[2300 students in a building built for 1800), in need of constant repair and threatened by outsiders, and consistently placed it at the top of all comprehensive high schools in the city [[schools where you don't apply for admission; these schools have to take everyone). She put in many long hours and sacrificed her time greatly to maintain that accomplishment. Her leadership and vision were key. When she left and the leadership strucure at the school changed dramatically, the school changed with it...for the worse.

You are very right about the role of administrators. From Dr. Mary Jeanmarie in kindergarten, to my last DPS boss, Principal George Cohen, I watched them be the epitome of dedication for a quarter of a century. When I lost my job and began my doctorate, I was also teaching in a suburban school. I'll never forget the first time I had to track down my principal to ask for his permission to attend NCTE. It took me nearly four weeks. Yes, there are bad administrators everywhere, but I was naive enough to assume that after having a principal I could always talk to the same day, or within 48 hours if they were at a meeting, I'd be able to do the same in a wealthier school. In fact, it was the opposite.

And yet, most people feel that all the administrators are like the ones who were busted for stealing earlier this year. It's an insult to the fine men and women who made magic for us with a fraction of the funding. I received their generosity and mentoring as a student, and as a teacher, in many more ways than I can count.

I first noticed a decline in the true attention to needs of schools in the 1990's... Until the schools address the issues already stressed in this thread, things like class-size and school-size, parent input, textbook and supplemental need accountability and school-based decision-making, progress will never occur.

Hear hear. All of the veterans who mentored me say the same thing that you do, 65memories.

[MichMatters]

English,

It'd be so awesome of folks like us could have this discussion out in the real world and be heard. The discussion on education, and particularly urban districts, doesn't ever really reach beyond a racially-charged fevered pitch when the discussion is had in the public. It's shallow and nasty and nothing good ever comes of it.

You know, I haven't always agreed with you, and sometimes I think you're too wordy, but you've single-handedly managed to raise the content and quality of the discourse, here, many, many, many levels above where it'd otherwise remain, and I thank you for that.

Folks like you need to know that you're not alone, and that maybe, you're not fighting the good fight in vain.

[English]

Thanks so much, MichMatters. My mentors, colleagues, and friends are trying to help me think through ways for me to return to the city. I've had several job interviews out-of-state and hope it doesn't have to come to that. I will let the forum know once the dust settles. It will be either sometime in the winter or very early spring.

I freely admit that I am wordy! If anything, grad school has made me even more verbose, because in academic discourse, you have to thoroughly explain what you mean, and then explain your explanations. Thanks for pointing it out, though, because in order to return home and recruit Detroiters for the project I've got in mind, I have to learn to boil down my ideas into manageable sound bites.

Usually, I wax verbose when I care about something. I've certainly posted my share of snarky one-liners, and have stirred up my share of s--t around here over the past 7 years. I don't post as frequently now as I used to when I was at Cass Tech, and I just couldn't stand the whole Kwame Kilpatrick debacle because EVERYONE in Ann Arbor asked me what I thought about it. But I care very deeply about our schools and our children.

Back to lurking and editing the dissertation... hopefully, the DPS won't be defunded. I'll be following the developments with keen interest.

[andybsg]

Did you mean to refer to a nitpicking session?

I am a former Detroit high school English teacher. The tangent about DetroitTeacher's posts is petty and unnecessary. If the "mitpickers" [[sic) in question were indeed serious about discussing the future of the Detroit Public Schools, they would privilege content and meaning over form and surface mechanics.

By the way, there are grammatical mistakes in most of the posts that purport to critique DT's professional knowledge.There are surface errors in the majority of posts on any Internet message board. However, most people tacitly recognize the differences between formal and informal communication unless they have ulterior motives.

If those who critiqued DT are willing to have a substantive conversation about the state of the district, I think you will find educators more than willing to have that conversation. However, spare us the pettiness and condescension.

Please provide your source for that statistic, and why do you insist on randomly capitalizing things, e.g. Internet.

[MichMatters]

Please provide your source for that statistic, and why do you insist on randomly capitalizing things, e.g. Internet.

English, I'd advise you not even to waste your time with this attempt to derail. Meh.

[English]

English, I'd advise you not even to waste your time with this attempt to derail. Meh.

I won't, especially since the Internet is a proper noun that is always capitalized, even when functioning as an adjective.

[mwilbert]

Mwilbert, if I am overstating the successes of the Detroit Public Schools, then how am I able to engage you in conversation?

I'm afraid English misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't referring to the successes of the DPS, I was referring to the successes of the various alternative programs [[KIPP, etc). It is clear that programs exist that have good outcomes. The question is how sustainable, scalable, and transferable these programs are. In my view, all three of these questions are open, whereas English seems to feel that programs of this type could be successfully instituted in Detroit, within the framework of the DPS.

Maybe so, but I think this is overoptimistic.

[andybsg]

I won't, especially since the Internet is a proper noun that is always capitalized, even when functioning as an adjective.

I'm sorry MM, I didn't know that asking for data was considered "derailing". I will review the "Down The Rabbit Whole" thread to refresh myself with how you guys like to handle facts and reality based discussion. I see that so far your methods are doing a bang up job at DPS.

English, internet is not always a proper noun, and your capitalization of internet is incorrect in that usage. I would suggest that you refer to a dictionary in the future, although I see that you tend to pontificate without facts or data. When discussing internets in general, as you were there, the word is not a proper noun. However, in the future if you do wish to refer to the Internet per se, then I would suggest a form similar to this, " There are surface errors in the majority of message board posts on the Internet ." You are more than welcome.

Computing Dictionary
Internet networking
[[Note: capital "I"). The Internet is the largest internet [[with a small "i") in the world. It is a three level hierarchy composed of backbone networks, mid-level networks, and stub networks. These include commercial [[.com or .co), university [[.ac or .edu) and other research networks [[.org, .net) and military [[.mil) networks and span many different physical networks around the world with various protocols, chiefly the Internet Protocol.
Until the advent of the World-Wide Web in 1990, the Internet was almost entirely unknown outside universities and corporate research departments and was accessed mostly via command line interfaces such as telnet and FTP. Since then it has grown to become an almost-ubiquitous aspect of modern information systems, becoming highly commercial and a widely accepted medium for all sort of customer relations such as advertising, brand building, and online sales and services. Its original spirit of cooperation and freedom have, to a great extent, survived this explosive transformation with the result that the vast majority of information available on the Internet is free of charge.
While the web [[primarily in the form of HTML and HTTP) is the best known aspect of the Internet, there are many other protocols in use, supporting applications such as electronic mail, Usenet, chat, remote login, and file transfer.
There were 20,242 unique commercial domains registered with InterNIC in September 1994, 10% more than in August 1994. In 1996 there were over 100 Internet access providers in the US and a few in the UK [[e.g. the BBC Networking Club, Demon, PIPEX).
There are several bodies associated with the running of the Internet, including the Internet Architecture Board, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, the Internet Engineering and Planning Group, Internet Engineering Steering Group, and the Internet Society.
See also NYsernet, EUNet.
The Internet Index - statistics about the Internet.
[[2000-02-21)





internet networking
[[Note: not capitalised) Any set of networks interconnected with routers. The Internet is the biggest example of an internet.
[[1996-09-17)

[runnerXT]

^weak

face it you lost

now back to the discussion

[Crumbled_pavement]

Are our posts on this site now going to be graded? Do I need to run a Grammar and Spell check each time I post? Do I need citations? What about a running head and abstract? Do I use APA style? I want to make sure I get a passing grade when I post on DetroitYes. Obviously it is quite critical that everything is posted in a professional manner in order to have a casual conversation. I don't want to lose out on any job opportunities because I misspelled a word on an internet forum.

[RickBeall]

"Saving" the DPS is the same as saving the DPS bureacracy.

The DPS bureacracy betrayed the good teachers, and the kids that depend on them.

Choice is good. Let the DPS compete for vouchers with the Charter Schools. If the mis-behaving kids get kicked out of the charter school and end up back at the public school that's tine, just make sure the Voucher money follows the kid. If the Charter School wants the money, they have to keep the kid.

DPS is not being "defunded", they can compete for the vouchers just like the Charters. It's just a different way of thinking. Monopolies eventually only serve themselves [[through corruption etc.), and eventually stop serving their clients.

Maybe some of the public schools will become just "lockdowns" for mis-behaving kids. Maybe some Charter Schools will become just lockdowns for mis-behaving kids --if they want to go for that money. But they will go somewhere, and the money for them will follow them.

[English]

I'm sorry MM, I didn't know that asking for data was considered "derailing". I will review the "Down The Rabbit Whole" thread to refresh myself with how you guys like to handle facts and reality based discussion. I see that so far your methods are doing a bang up job at DPS.

English, internet is not always a proper noun, and your capitalization of internet is incorrect in that usage. I would suggest that you refer to a dictionary in the future, although I see that you tend to pontificate without facts or data. When discussing internets in general, as you were there, the word is not a proper noun. However, in the future if you do wish to refer to the Internet per se, then I would suggest a form similar to this, " There are surface errors in the majority of message board posts on the Internet ." You are more than welcome.

I freely admit that not all of my posts are grammatically perfect, but I disagree with the capitalization nit. The form I used is correct in my field. Style conventions vary according to discipline.

What is amusing is that in the post you selectively quoted, I did not exempt myself. I neither claimed perfection, nor engaged in ad hominem attacks against DetroitTeacher, so your attempts to shame me are puerile. This is a forum for informal communication about the city that most of us love. This is not a major research journal.

I could provide thousands of sources, replete with statistics, data, and analysis. I could provide a bibliography of my own published and forthcoming work, as well as grant proposals. My identity is not completely anonymous on DYes, as I count quite a few forumers among my friends, acquaintances, and colleagues. However, I somehow gather that you are not interested in conversation, but showering me with contempt. This is why I respect MWilbert, who is ideologically opposed to my points of view, but is offering me quite a bit of food for thought.

You, on the other hand, are owed absolutely nothing from me... not even the courtesy of further responses. Enjoy your day.

[English]

"Saving" the DPS is the same as saving the DPS bureacracy.

The DPS bureacracy betrayed the good teachers, and the kids that depend on them.

Choice is good. Let the DPS compete for vouchers with the Charter Schools. If the mis-behaving kids get kicked out of the charter school and end up back at the public school that's tine, just make sure the Voucher money follows the kid. If the Charter School wants the money, they have to keep the kid.

DPS is not being "defunded", they can compete for the vouchers just like the Charters. It's just a different way of thinking. Monopolies eventually only serve themselves [[through corruption etc.), and eventually stop serving their clients.

Maybe some of the public schools will become just "lockdowns" for mis-behaving kids. Maybe some Charter Schools will become just lockdowns for mis-behaving kids --if they want to go for that money. But they will go somewhere, and the money for them will follow them.

I understand your argument, Rick. However, I wonder if charter schools will be willing to take on students on IEPs, especially when 21st century school success is tied to test scores. Here are a few reports on charter schools that are designed for kids with special needs:

http://www.uscharterschools.org/cs/s...dp/reports.htm

What is at stake here is the question of whether or not education should be "for the public good", or a "private service". I am not convinced that the free market will produce the best results for all of the children in our country.

The NCES [[National Center for Education Statistics) provides a good data set for beginning to consider these issues. Thanks to my Michigan professors, I've spent the past few years buried in these reports:

http://nces.ed.gov/

The newest report is about crime in our schools. Most successful private, charter, and public magnet schools sort, sift, and otherwise remove students with special learning or emotional needs, who are violent, or who are antisocial. They do not have to deal with them.

Again, as I stated upthread, we have a precursor to the voucher movement already happening in schools all over Metro Detroit. Former Detroit students are now in the most far-flung suburban schools, and suburban teachers are calling people like me to come in to run workshops about how to reach students who may be below that school's grade level expectations, or are very different behaviorally or culturally. Once we implode DPS, the students will not only be attending charter schools in the city. They will be coming to a neighborhood school near you.

This is not something I mind at all. In fact, my career benefitted because of this demographic change. I was immediately hired by a top district to teach under whatever terms I wanted because of the increasing African American and Latino population at that school, and consulting work has helped to fund my doctorate. I think that trends that show we may be finally starting to integrate schooling in Michigan are good. However, if patterns of residential segregation and white flight are any indication, this may create increased challenges for teachers in Oakland, Macomb, and Washtenaw counties. Parents and families will be making decisions about trends in these districts, and decide if life in Metro Detroit is what's best for their kids.

We can't run away from the major social, economic, and policy debacle that has occurred in Detroit. We need to figure it out. Another great source, where some of the alumni from my doctoral program now work, is the Alliance for Excellent Education:

http://www.all4ed.org/

I'm glad to see people in DYes still very concerned about Detroit schools. I think that we do need all points of view represented in the conversation. If people are interested, I can post more sources for reports and research about school reform. Sometimes, I get busy and can't check DYes every day. Just shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to send stuff along. One quick suggestion is to subscribe to EducationWeek online. It's free, and you will be instantly linked to the major conversations around educational policy, along with major developments in education all over the nation. [[I've been following Michelle Rhee in D.C. with interest.)

http://www.edweek.org/ew/index.html

[pffft]

Thanks to English and all for a great discussion, very illuminating.
I would only disagree, English, with your emphasis on "change" in terms of, we need DPS to focus on the basics: reading, writing, math and science.
Elementary, middle and high schools should not be trade schools, you can't predict what technology will be by the time these kids are in college or in the workplace, but you can give them the tools they need in order to learn, and discover...that's what they need.
The basic building blocks are still reading, writing, math and science.
The other issue is discipline. When Detroit schools were world class, they had special schools for disciplinary problems. The kids would be shipped there to shape up, then back to their regular DPS class. There should be uniforms and no nonsense brooked.

[English]

I really should be working, but I'm really enjoying the conversations here this afternoon...

Thanks to English and all for a great discussion, very illuminating.
I would only disagree, English, with your emphasis on "change" in terms of, we need DPS to focus on the basics: reading, writing, math and science.
Elementary, middle and high schools should not be trade schools, you can't predict what technology will be by the time these kids are in college or in the workplace, but you can give them the tools they need in order to learn, and discover...that's what they need.
The basic building blocks are still reading, writing, math and science.
The other issue is discipline. When Detroit schools were world class, they had special schools for disciplinary problems. The kids would be shipped there to shape up, then back to their regular DPS class. There should be uniforms and no nonsense brooked.

Pffft, I hear where you're coming from, but from what I hear, Detroit schools used to prepare students for skilled work with only a high school diploma. My mother and her friends insist that vocational training prepared them to earn a living, and that Detroit schools became worse when they insisted that every school should offer a college preparatory curriculum. Ironically, this philosophy came directly out of the Civil Rights Movement. Before it, some students of color in Northern, supposedly integrated districts were automatically tracked to the vocations or semi-skilled trades, and counseled away from rigorous college prep courses.

Ideologically, I agree with you. I believe in the Western liberal arts tradition. The challenge of focusing on only the basics, however, is that by the time a young adult acquires basic or even a rudimentary proficiency in the "core 4" [[English, social studies, math, and science), they feel that upper-level secondary subjects are pointless unless they are interested in higher education. There is a certain group of kids who need things to be immediately practical. They are in survival mode on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and want something that will be useful now.

What would you think about American schools going to something like the UK model, where students can exit school after their GCSEs at age 15/16? From that point, 11th and 12th grade would either become the AP track/college prep [[equivalent to their A-Levels) or a trade/vocational track [[equivalent to our community colleges). I used to think that might be a good solution but have since heard pretty good arguments about the flaws in the British model.

[pffft]

English,
I don't agree with the British model at all, and here's why -- it's based upon and sets in concrete, the class distinctions that are still so prevalent there.
Kids are funneled into "grammar" schools at 7, usually if they're well off and well-spoken. The rest are tossed into "secondary moderns" that are basically holding cells for the underprivileged.
The beauty of the American system of education has always been that it is intended for all. It is universal education, not private school for the wealthy or trade school for the poor.
I know a lot of people got good jobs because of trade school instruction at DPS, and there should be practical classes in typing, shop, etc.
But it's not so much college prep I'm talking about, as it is the basic building blocks of education, again, practical math, science, reading and writing.
The kind of learning you need for any job.

[andybsg]

The key to improving education for these kids is improving security and discipline in school. DPS is not alone in this, much of Chicago is a disaster, but many city public school systems, NY included, are leaps and bounds beyond where DPS is when it comes to security and discipline. Simply put, if teachers are under pressure from misbehaving students they can not teach. If students are under the same pressure then they can not learn. If police in the schools is the answer, then go to it.