Ameliorating Poverty and Income Inequality in Detroit

[sumas]

Thanks for sharing this story. I'm hoping my daughter will do the same, have BC available if she wants it, but wait.

The right-wingers need to concentrate their efforts on savings the lives of the people who are getting killed in all these needless wars, perhaps around 200,000 in Iraq alone as a result of what our country did. To me, killing lots of humans of all ages via war is worse than abortion.

Being of the Vietnam era, always brings to my mind, civic strikes and marches. I was active in the peace movement.

But we digress from poverty and solutions. The obvious solution is training kids for decent work/decent pay, responsible behavior on the job, at home and in the community. Unfortunately in rural, suburban and urban communities, parents so stressed, can't provide the over sight needed. I firmly believe that the welfare program needs a huge over haul. Not deleteing benefits but making them more available. People need help not overwhelming obstacles.

[Dan Wesson]

People need help not overwhelming obstacles.

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[sumas]

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[Vic01]

Why wait for the feds or the state. Detroit has the means to achieve an equal paradise on its own.

1. Raise the city minimum wage to $30 an hour.

2. Provide civil service jobs for any one that an't find a job.

3. Pay for it all with a steeply graduated city income tax reaching 90% on all income over $200,000.

4. Within five years everyone in Detroit will be equal economically.

WTF...! I thought "Fantasy Island" went off the air years ago...

[Scottathew]

People need help not overwhelming obstacles.

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Fixed it!

People need help, not overwhelming obstacles.

[CassTechGrad]

Ha, Ha, Ha. People forget so quickly. Remember in 1971, a long time ago for some, but still relevant today. A big local hit from Motown Records was theTemptations song: Ball of Confusion!!

The lyrics in the middle of the song go something like this:

“Evolution, revolution, gun control, sound of soul.
Politicians say more taxes will solve everything.
And the band played on.”

Well, all these guys want it and most have already tried it and how did that turn out? Not so good for people like you and me, I think. Maybe if they just were more brutal and oppressive then things would have worked out better. How about we give them another chance? But only if you are willing to put your family on the line, OK!! Count me out.

[ABetterDetroit]

Why wait for the feds or the state. Detroit has the means to achieve an equal paradise on its own.

1. Raise the city minimum wage to $30 an hour.

2. Provide civil service jobs for any one that an't find a job.

3. Pay for it all with a steeply graduated city income tax reaching 90% on all income over $200,000.

4. Within five years everyone in Detroit will be equal economically.

Hey check out your joke-

http://taxfoundation.org/article/us-...usted-brackets

How did it work? We built the worlds great economy?

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...ry_nominal.pdf

Did you look closely at the rate on the top brackets prior to 1960?

You were bought, paid for and delivered with the sole purpose to pick up the tab. And your children, your grand kids, etc...

[Hermod]

Hey check out your joke-

http://taxfoundation.org/article/us-...usted-brackets

How did it work? We built the worlds great economy?

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...ry_nominal.pdf

Did you look closely at the rate on the top brackets prior to 1960? You were bought, paid for and delivered with the sole purpose to pick up the tab. And your children, their grand kids, etc...

I began paying taxes in 1959 and I remember the tax tables. They began at 20% for the guys at the bottom and went yup to 91% on everything over $252,000. In 1962, I made $2,667.00. after a $267 standard deduction and $1800 in exemptions for me, wife, and kid, paid $120 in fed taxes on the $600 remaining [[plus SS)'

One of the first things the sainted John F. Kennedy did when taking office was make a big push to lower the top rate from 91% to 70% because he blamed the rolling recessions of the 1950s on high marginal rates.

[sumas]

Ha, Ha, Ha. People forget so quickly. Remember in 1971, a long time ago for some, but still relevant today. A big local hit from Motown Records was theTemptations song: Ball of Confusion!!

The lyrics in the middle of the song go something like this:

“Evolution, revolution, gun control, sound of soul.
Politicians say more taxes will solve everything.
And the band played on.”

Well, all these guys want it and most have already tried it and how did that turn out? Not so good for people like you and me, I think. Maybe if they just were more brutal and oppressive then things would have worked out better. How about we give them another chance? But only if you are willing to put your family on the line, OK!! Count me out.

My husband was Cass Tech. Have to love a school where Gym was a bowling alley on Woodward.

[ABetterDetroit]

I began paying taxes in 1959 and I remember the tax tables. They began at 20% for the guys at the bottom and went yup to 91% on everything over $252,000. In 1962, I made $2,667.00. after a $267 standard deduction and $1800 in exemptions for me, wife, and kid, paid $120 in fed taxes on the $600 remaining [[plus SS)'

One of the first things the sainted John F. Kennedy did when taking office was make a big push to lower the top rate from 91% to 70% because he blamed the rolling recessions of the 1950s on high marginal rates.

Touché , you know your tax history. He wasn't a saint. Only one in a long line of politicians that had rich friends that needed to be taken care of. Of course the bullet in the head and the grieving wife and children on TV for the first time ever elevated him to sainthood.

[Hermod]

Touché , you know your tax history. He wasn't a saint. Only one in a long line of politicians that had rich friends that needed to be taken care of. Of course the bullet in the head and the grieving wife and children on TV for the first time ever elevated him to sainthood.

The amazing thing was that tax collections went up when he lowered the rates in 1963. If the top marginal rate is zero, you will get zero taxes from the people paying the top rate. If the top rate is 1%, you will get X, if the top rate is 2%, you will get 2X. The take [[in multiples of X) will go up as the top rate goes up. When the top rate is 100%, you will get zero [[not 100X) because people will quit earning money when they reach the top rate. The result is a curve which begins at zero when the tax rate is zero, climbs to a peak, and then drops back to zero at 100% tax rate. If the purpose of taxes is to fund the government [[and not to punish rich people or to level income), the tax rate should be set to achieve the peak of the curve which is the "sweet spot". I have never heard advocates of "go back to the Eisenhower rates" or "everyoone must pay a fair share" ever define what they thought the "sweet spot" was. In 1986, the bi-partisan tax writers thought that 28% was the "sweet spot".

[Wesley Mouch]

Hey check out your joke-

http://taxfoundation.org/article/us-...usted-brackets

How did it work? We built the worlds great economy?

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...ry_nominal.pdf

Did you look closely at the rate on the top brackets prior to 1960?

You were bought, paid for and delivered with the sole purpose to pick up the tab. And your children, your grand kids, etc...

Its a logical mistake to assume that one period of high taxes at the end of the dream era was the cause of anything.

Was our economy also a success because Kennedy was better groomed than Nixon?

Correlation is not causation.

[ABetterDetroit]

The amazing thing was that tax collections went up when he lowered the rates in 1963. If the top marginal rate is zero, you will get zero taxes from the people paying the top rate. If the top rate is 1%, you will get X, if the top rate is 2%, you will get 2X. The take [[in multiples of X) will go up as the top rate goes up. When the top rate is 100%, you will get zero [[not 100X) because people will quit earning money when they reach the top rate. The result is a curve which begins at zero when the tax rate is zero, climbs to a peak, and then drops back to zero at 100% tax rate. If the purpose of taxes is to fund the government [[and not to punish rich people or to level income), the tax rate should be set to achieve the peak of the curve which is the "sweet spot". I have never heard advocates of "go back to the Eisenhower rates" or "everyoone must pay a fair share" ever define what they thought the "sweet spot" was. In 1986, the bi-partisan tax writers thought that 28% was the "sweet spot".

I don't advocate returning to the rates of that time. I just find it really intresting that while the middle class is stagnating at best, most folks in the middle give the wealthy a free pass because they admire them and blame the poor because they haven't achieved the middle. Meanwhile look who is paying for the campaigns of both parties.

[Hermod]

I don't advocate returning to the rates of that time. I just find it really intresting that while the middle class is stagnating at best, most folks in the middle give the wealthy a free pass because they admire them and blame the poor because they haven't achieved the middle. Meanwhile look who is paying for the campaigns of both parties.

Yes, but the lower the marginal tax rate is, the less advatageous it is to try and game the system with special tax breaks.

[EastsideAl]

Yes, but the lower the marginal tax rate is, the less advatageous it is to try and game the system with special tax breaks.

Which doesn't seem to stop anyone from doing it anyway.

[Hermod]

Which doesn't seem to stop anyone from doing it anyway.

A lot of special tax breaks were cleared out in 1986 in exchange for the promised 28% top rate. That was reneged on and it was 33%, then it jumped to 39.8% and the fervor for special breaks came back with a vengeance.

[Hypestyles]

I debated whether to put this in Non-Detroit as a national/global issue, or here.

But I settled on the 'Discuss Detroit' forum on the basis that I'm curious about how people would propose to ameliorate these issues in DETROIT.

I think that too often people on every side of this [[and other) issues decide that its a national or global problem and therefore not about them, or their neighbour or their city, or their state/province.

For the sake of discussion poverty can be both 'absolute' [[not enough income to survive without charity/gov't help) and relative [[ a standard of living well below the norm).

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My opening thesis on poverty in general, then Detroit in particular.

In General: Poverty is a function of two large groups the unemployed, and the working poor.

The former includes the unemployable [[severe disability, close to retirement age serious criminal record etc.) as well as those who seek employment but for a number of reasons may not find it.

The latter features people who work, but can't get enough hours, or have such a lousy wage that even a 40-hour week doesn't pay the most meager bills.

Detroit: Faces all the issues that exist around the world and the U.S. with respect to poverty, but additional barriers based on race, and mobility in particular.

*****

So assuming that no matter one's politics, we can agree there should be enough jobs to go around, and that anyone willing to work 40 hours should have to eat, cover 1/2 decent shelter costs and other basics [[medical care, clothes etc.)

How do those issues get better addressed in the context of Detroit?

I'm not looking for any solution that requires the U.S. Federal government or social revolution.

Practical changes in laws, existing programs, infrastructure investments and the like at the municipal or state levels.

*****

FYI what triggered this is the NY Governor's proposal for a minimum wage of $10.50 per hour in NYS and $11.50 per hour in NYC [[roughly $12.25 Cdn and $13.45 Cdn) in support of a living wage. Specifically he noted the American Dream that anyone working fullt ime could be self sufficient.

there's no way to address this without government [[federal, state, county/city) intervention and cooperation. "the market" left Detroit in its devastated, deteriorated state that the bankruptcy only "finally" began to address. Bring in nonprofits to manage the human resources; compel the corporate community to donate money. Revise tax laws to penalize profiteerism and curb tax-dodging by corporations. Reduce relentless tax-credits for companies that don't live up to their promises.

A new Public Works Act/Civilian Conservation Corps is needed to address unemployment needs for the undereducated and the chronically unemployed in the city. Blight removal, construction, demolition, retrofitting buildings, updating the electrical and sewerage infrastructure are a start.

[Wesley Mouch]

... "the market" left Detroit in its devastated, deteriorated state that the bankruptcy only "finally" began to address. Bring in nonprofits to manage the human resources; compel the corporate community to donate money. Revise tax laws to penalize profiteerism and curb tax-dodging by corporations. Reduce relentless tax-credits for companies that don't live up to their promises....

Hyper... You leave the question of 'why' the market left the D unanswered.

I'll answer.

The market left because Detroit failed to keep up with modern times.
-> We cared more about who got work than the quality of the work [[CoD executive orders)
-> We allowed union rules to control the shop floor instead of management [[12 print operators on new machines at the papers that needed only 4)
-> We called everyone white a racist
-> We asked for desegregated schools [[bussing) instead of caring about quality above all
-> We cared more about our tax revenue than the health of our companies [[Michigan SBT and 3%/1.5% employee paid taxes.)
-> Corporate Compliance rules by the CoD that favored local ass-kissers and frauds rather than quality work

I could write forever on stupid decisions, but the mass of stupidity encouraged anyone who just wanted to get stuff done to go somewhere where they could do so.

And yes, that's partly because others were so depressed and economically disadvantaged that they were happy to get the jobs we chased away.

And what on earth is profiteering other than 'hype' words? Profits are created by delivering something someone wants more efficiently. They aren't bad. They are good. I'm with you on hating the gaming of the system with tax games.

[royce]

there's no way to address this without government [[federal, state, county/city) intervention and cooperation. "the market" left Detroit in its devastated, deteriorated state that the bankruptcy only "finally" began to address. Bring in nonprofits to manage the human resources; compel the corporate community to donate money. Revise tax laws to penalize profiteerism and curb tax-dodging by corporations. Reduce relentless tax-credits for companies that don't live up to their promises.

A new Public Works Act/Civilian Conservation Corps is needed to address unemployment needs for the undereducated and the chronically unemployed in the city. Blight removal, construction, demolition, retrofitting buildings, updating the electrical and sewerage infrastructure are a start.

I agree that this is needed. However, it should come from the many foundations and not government. The Kresge and Skillman Foundations are two foundations that give millions of dollars to worthy causes. No argument there. I think the money needs to go directly to the unemployed and underemployed to do PWA/CCC type jobs. Also, those accepting these jobs should have a portion of their wages set aside for savings accounts that can't be tapped into until a set number of years [[not a pension)or a set amount of money is put in. This way these workers can have money for higher education or investment opportunities or for a rainy day fund.

[ABetterDetroit]

Revise tax laws to penalize profiteerism and curb tax-dodging by corporations. Reduce relentless tax-credits for companies that don't live up to their promises.

Would you please explain how this would benefit Detroit? It already has failed around here, if you attack the corporations, companies [[the employer) and crank up the taxes on them they just jump across eight mile, out of state or overseas. When you tax the employe vs. the employer you have him by the short hairs if the business is in the city, he either pays his taxes or quits his job [[new job opening in the city). You want to attract corporations and companies to get the jobs so you can increase your tax base. Making a unattractive business environment then hoping that non-profits and charities clean up the problems of high unemployment doesn't sound that great for the unemployed to me.

[Hypestyles]

a hockey arena doesn't do a thing for my neighborhood. Chrysler, Ford and GM aren't coming back en masse to urban Detroit. There's no neighborhood trickle down benefits for anything the DEGC announces, despite what people on this board seem to think. Community Benefits Agreements would be the bare minimum that could be done to provide some tactile, contractually accountable promises that go beyond agreeable soundbite rhetoric.

[ABetterDetroit]

a hockey arena doesn't do a thing for my neighborhood. Chrysler, Ford and GM aren't coming back en masse to urban Detroit. There's no neighborhood trickle down benefits for anything the DEGC announces, despite what people on this board seem to think. Community Benefits Agreements would be the bare minimum that could be done to provide some tactile, contractually accountable promises that go beyond agreeable soundbite rhetoric.

So if GM packed it's bags and bolted Detroit like Boeing left Seattle you figure it would have no effect on your neighborhood? If a company like Amazon was created here still no effect? Really? What happens when corporate guys like Roger Penske no longer show up to buy all the new police cars and EMS trucks?

[magnumstan]

I don't understand...as was already asked, what is "profiteering"? Making "too much" money? By whose judgment? "Income inequality" is a thing? Meaning, a problem which needs to be solved?

[Danny]

Why wait for the feds or the state. Detroit has the means to achieve an equal paradise on its own.

1. Raise the city minimum wage to $30 an hour.

2. Provide civil service jobs for any one that an't find a job.

3. Pay for it all with a steeply graduated city income tax reaching 90% on all income over $200,000.

4. Within five years everyone in Detroit will be equal economically.

Good ideal, but there just one problem. Republicans and rich greedy corporations will say NO WAY!

[Scottathew]

I think raising minimum wage to $30 an hour would have a lot of bad consequences and would cause a lot of layoffs, followed by inflation. I feel around $10.50 is a much better number, and put in automatic inflation increases.