Controversy over male on female assault at Grosse Pointe North [[video)

[Pickford-Bentler]

Originally Posted by Bham
There was no slavery in Michigan.




Here we go, another straw man argument. Detroit has a legacy of de facto segregation - Sojourner Truth, anyone? The 1943 riots really happened, you know.



There was slavery in the Michigan Territory. I believe it was outlawed when Michigan became a state, in 1837.


https://journals.ku.edu/index.php/am...File/2447/2406

[nain rouge]

FlyingJ: What history did I get wrong? I never denied any of that stuff happened in Poland. BUT I was reflecting on the American experience. And I've already said multiple times that the student in the video should be punished.

The fact that everyone is in a huff and making up irrelevant arguments stands in my favor, I think. I must have a point or no one would care to go to such bizarre lengths to disprove me.

[Bham1982]

Here we go, another straw man argument. Detroit has a legacy of de facto segregation - Sojourner Truth, anyone? The 1943 riots really happened.

Every place on the planet has a "legacy of de facto segregation". Why is that an excuse for present-day dysfunction? Where do you suggest I move where there was never race-based injustice?

Because now you're an American. You don't get to pick which parts of our country's legacy you adopt. You're responsible for all of it, good and bad. That'd be like someone immigrating to America and claiming that none of their tax dollars should be used to service the preexisting debt, since all of that money was spent before them.

Actually, no, I have no blame for things I wasn't personally involved in. You will never win this argument of incredibly strained "guilt by association." If I move to Germany tomorrow that doesn't make me responsible for the Holocaust. The sooner people "get this", the sooner we will actually fix the problems in the U.S.

My family came here for economic opportunity, and we don't judge people by their race. Those that do [[of any race) can go screw themselves. The black immigrants to this country are upwardly mobile [[like all immigrants) because they don't dwell on the past to justify personal shortcomings.

I'd argue that whites are just fearful of leaving in a majority Hispanic neighborhood as they are a majority black neighborhood. You don't see hipsters flocking to Mexicantown. They want to live somewhere where they can be the dominant culture.

There are plenty of whites in Mexicantown. In fact that's basically the only white neighborhood left in Detroit. There's no gentrification for the same reason there's no gentrification in 99% of Detroit- the neighborhood sucks and there aren't many hipsters in the area anyway. Even Brooklyn and Portland are like 90% non-hipster, why would some crap neighborhood on Detroit's industrial fringe become a hipster mecca?

Southfield is a perfect example of a good suburb that whites have fled for no sensible reason other than "OMG THE BLACKS!" When enough disinvestment occurs in Southfield that it begins to struggle [[as white's make up 70% of the Metro Detroit population and therefore control most of the area's wealth, especially since we got a head start on blacks), it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy for whites. And yet it proves nothing.[/COLOR]

Actually, no Southfield is a perfect example of whites welcoming blacks into the neighborhood [[Southfield was Jewish and they have always been more welcoming than other whites), and the neighborhood slowly transitioning to black over 30-40 years. Jews are very upwardly mobile and weren't going to stay in the modest Southfield split-levels forever. They slowly left, and now blacks are slowly leaving.

And Southfield is still very much a place where you see whites. The shopping on the northern fringe [[12 Telegraph, 13 Southfield) is almost certainly mostly used by whites. There's still an Orthodox Jewish population in Southfield [[and they aren't going anywhere).

[dtowncitylover]

There was no slavery in Michigan. Why don't we apply more arbitrary restrictions, and point out that there was no slavery "here" so no one living "here" should be held responsible. Blame Mississippi, not Michigan non-blacks, 95% of whom arrived after slavery had been abolished. My family came to the U.S. in the 1970's; why am I personally responsible for something prior to my family's arrival?

1) Yes there was. If you go to the Detroit Historical Museum, you would learn that. and 2) The argument that "my family moved here after slavery so I don't owe anyone anything" is so old hat. True, your family didn't own slaves, but they did take advantage of a system built more in favor of them than blacks.

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/artic...thing_about_it

[nain rouge]

Bham: Oh God, so now if it takes a few decades for a neighborhood to transition to overwhelmingly black [[instead of overnight), that's an example of how welcoming the whites are. With your logic, only the most overt racism can exist. Interesting.

With blacks making up approximately 23% of the Metro Detroit population, I'd say that in a healthy society blacks should make up 10-40% of the population in each city. But that's not the pattern we see in cities like Southfield.

[nain rouge]

Actually, no, I have no blame for things I wasn't personally involved in. You will never win this argument of incredibly strained "guilt by association." If I move to Germany tomorrow that doesn't make me responsible for the Holocaust. The sooner people "get this", the sooner we will actually fix the problems in the U.S.

If I moved to Germany, I wouldn't boo hoo the government if it offered Jews reparations. I wouldn't boo hoo Jews if they said they were treated horribly in Germany.

[Bham1982]

True, your family didn't own slaves, but they did take advantage of a system built more in favor of them than blacks.

Then why are black immigrants wildly successful in this "system"? Why are blacks overall much richer and better educated than Hispanics? Why are blacks so upwardly mobile and generally middle class overall?

There is nothing in the current "system" that is inherently, irredeemably racist. If there were then black immigrants to the U.S. would not be so successful.

High achieving African Americans are like golden children to universities and major corporations. The idea that high-achieving blacks can't succeed because of the "system" is laughably wrong. The Harvards and Goldman Sachs of the world will kill for high achieving young black males. If anything, Asians should be complaining in that they are often discriminated against in college admissions and workplace offers.

[Bham1982]

If I moved to Germany, I wouldn't boo hoo the government if it offered Jews reparations. I wouldn't boo hoo Jews if they said they were treated horribly in Germany.

I would. That would be insane. Germany does not offer reparations to Jews, nor should they.

Are you arguing for reparations for blacks in the U.S.? Good luck with that line. As if the problem in the black underclass would be solved by a cash payment from the government. We already basically did that, under LBJ, and it was a catastrophe.

And no one is claiming that blacks weren't treated horribly, just as the Jews. The difference is that you are claiming that blacks can't succeed now because of racism in the past, which is absurd.

Jews are extremely successful in modern-day Germany, BTW. It's probably the best place to be Jewish in Europe [[in contrast to anti-semitic sentiment in France and the UK). Jews move to Germany, by choice, and obviously succeed despite the dark past in Germany.

[Bham1982]

With blacks making up approximately 23% of the Metro Detroit population, I'd say that in a healthy society blacks should make up 10-40% of the population in each city. But that's not the pattern we see in cities like Southfield.

Sorry, I am not for forced resettlement based on arbitrary govt. racial categorizations. I think people should live where the choose to live. If blacks want to move anywhere in the metro area, there is nothing stopping them, and if they get resistance, it's a quick call to the fair housing office to get the feds involved.

[Goose]

once you've all decided and awarded the trophy to which group has been the most repressed, please explain to me how it all relates to the main topic of this thread.....

[nain rouge]

And no one is claiming that blacks weren't treated horribly, just as the Jews. The difference is that you are claiming that blacks can't succeed now because of racism in the past, which is absurd.

That really wasn't what 90% of this topic was about. YOU brought this subject up as a trap so you could change the conversation to a topic you're more comfortable with: the past. Really, we were discussing the subtle racism we see today in people's reactions to changing demographics in schools like Grosse Pointe North. Some of us believe that has a damaging effect.

Feel free to disagree, but some intellectual honesty about it would be appreciated.

Sorry, I am not for forced resettlement based on arbitrary govt. racial categorizations.

Sorry, but I never said anything about forced resettlement. Start addressing what I actually write, not these straw men.

[dtowncitylover]

Then why are black immigrants wildly successful in this "system"? Why are blacks overall much richer and better educated than Hispanics? Why are blacks so upwardly mobile and generally middle class overall?

There is nothing in the current "system" that is inherently, irredeemably racist. If there were then black immigrants to the U.S. would not be so successful.

High achieving African Americans are like golden children to universities and major corporations. The idea that high-achieving blacks can't succeed because of the "system" is laughably wrong. The Harvards and Goldman Sachs of the world will kill for high achieving young black males. If anything, Asians should be complaining in that they are often discriminated against in college admissions and workplace offers.

And this is exactly it. Because blacks aren't achieving the status fast enough as the former "ethnic" immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th centuries did. Saying that companies use blacks as "golden children" is what's wrong. They shouldn't be golden children, they should just be children. And high achieving blacks have already succeeded. But to me, Oprah and Tyler Perry, are the exceptions rather than the rule, unfortunately.

I work with one African-American. Literally African American too. His parents are Nigerian. African immigrants are very much the exception to it because they, for the most part, come from already "good" families back home. They come to our schools on scholarship and get good jobs. They, for lack of a better term, can "buy" their way in. While black Americans, those descended from slaves, have to work twice and hard because the system works against them. It's studied and proven fact that their is name bias in US companies. It's a studied in proven fact that a white with a criminal history is more likely to get a call back for an interview than a black with no criminal history, that is if the black candidate was interviewed at all.

Whites have the privilege to say racism doesn't exist because they're the ones not being discriminated against. Out of sight, out of mind...

[Bham1982]

Sorry, but I never said anything about forced resettlement. Start addressing what I actually write, not these straw men.[/COLOR]

There is no logical reason that the Metro population should be distributed exactly by race. Race is a fabricated social construct, and there's no reason to think that it would follow settlement patterns. There is nothing "better" or "worse" about having a community with racial diversity and one without. It's all completely made-up nonsense, using racial scorecards.

If you're obsessed with categorizing injustice by race, then talk about Hispanics, not blacks. They are far more numerous in the U.S., far poorer and less educated, and are basically the future. Whites and blacks are in [[relative) decline.

[Bham1982]

I work with one African-American. Literally African American too. His parents are Nigerian. African immigrants are very much the exception to it because they, for the most part, come from already "good" families back home. They come to our schools on scholarship and get good jobs. They, for lack of a better term, can "buy" their way in.

But if there is something inherently preventing blacks from achieving success in the U.S., then [[using your example) Nigerian immigrants should be blocked by the same forces. They are very much black and would be victim to the same institutionalized racism. Heck, look at Haitians. Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere and all descendants of slaves, and yet immigrants from Haiti are jokingly called black Jews in NYC [[for their success in certain professions).

I am not saying there is no discrimination or that blacks don't have it tough, but there is nothing positive that will come out of dwelling on past brutality. It's community suicide, and in part why we have an isolated underclass.

[nain rouge]

There is nothing "better" or "worse" about having a community with racial diversity and one without. It's all completely made-up nonsense, using racial scorecards.

Ah, I see. You're post-race. Very enlightened. We'll let the people decide if they agree with your claims.

[Wesley Mouch]

This post is sufficiently disjointed that it is hard to address as a whole, but I think I would make a few points.

There isn't a scale of oppression that makes comparisons straightforward, but I would say based upon the length of time it persisted, the nature of the treatment involved, and the number of people affected, that the American treatment of blacks, both in slavery and subsequently, is a pretty substantial piece of oppression.

People being killed in wars in not generally considered oppression. It is a bad thing, but a different bad thing. Certainly the treatment of Jews under the Nazis was oppressive, but I really think that the murder of the Jewish populations of central and eastern Europe was also something different.

The idea that lots of people wanting to migrate to the US means that we have addressed the issues of people in the US who were historically oppressed just seems like nonsense to me. A lot of people living in Haiti would probably be happy to trade places with some black resident of Brightmoor, but all that means is that living in Haiti has, on average, a lot of disadvantages relative to living in Brightmoor. It doesn't mean that black people living in Brightmoor don't have, on average, a lot of disadvantages relative to a typical American.

I gotta stop the vodka. Sorry about the disjointed. I promise to be better.

War deaths are different, no doubt. But remember that Hitler didn't kill Poles, Jews, and the double-threat of Polish Jews in order to achieve victory. He killed them for the joy of it. He killed them for what there were. 90% of the deaths in WWII were not soliders or innocent citizens just trying to survive, they were targeted because of their race, religion, and ethnicity. Hitler wanted to kill Jews and Poles. Slaves, on the other hand, were not largely killed because of who they were. In fact, they were kept alive because they were valuable alive. [[The massive deaths in transit are a different matter, but again it wasn't targeted, malicious, intentional murder. Just as heinous.)

[bailey]

Ah, I see. You're post-race. Very enlightened. We'll let the people decide if they agree with your claims.

the country as a whole is pretty darn segregated....so I think the people HAVE decided.

FWIW.. regarding the thread's topic, GP North's Student Newspaper takedown of the flagrantly dishonest Fox News report and a demand, ignored thus far, for an apology.

https://twitter.com/thenorthpointe/s...563328/photo/1

[Wesley Mouch]

the country as a whole is pretty darn segregated....so I think the people HAVE decided. ...

This argument that the country is segregated seems about as valid as the argument that cops shoot black kids for sport.

I know there are studies. But I also know what I see. And I never saw interracial couples 30 years ago in Detroit. [[Toronto, yes; Detroit, never). Never saw black people in Sterling Whites. Few blacks in places like Livonia -- today its quite common. The progress in breaking down barriers is astounding and encouraging.

Do people like to live with their own? Dearborn [[arab) and Troy [[asian) are examples where there may be more congregation of like people, but who really cares so long as its voluntary.

The idea of increased 'segregation' seems to be an argument that there's this subtle racism in everything, everywhere. Surname preferences in hiring and the like. Well, sure. No doubt true. So most people have discovered that hiring blacks means you increase the odds of getting a DPS grad. Would you want that for your business?

So if you want to fix this 'segregation' and 'racism', fix the problems. Fix DPS. Open more charters and damn the unions. Just educate. The rest will fix itself. In the meantime, tossing blame for lagging black community does nothing except alienate people who want to help. You can look for the problems, or you can celebrate the successes. I prefer the latter.

[nain rouge]

Sorry, but few big cities are as badly and obviously segregated as Detroit. 8 Mile in the '90s was an insane display of racial segregation. Any integration in Metro Detroit tends to be momentary. At one time Detroit probably appeared very integrated, as blacks first moved out of the old neighborhoods.

It didn't last for long.

Have we improved? Sure. But it's hardly time to pat yourself on the back. We've got a lot of work ahead of us.

[bailey]

This argument that the country is segregated seems about as valid as the argument that cops shoot black kids for sport.

It's not an "argument", it's objectively provable fact. And today, it's entirely voluntary. There will always be an exurb for ethnic groups to migrate too... Indians will move to Troy, Arabs to Dearborn, Chaldeans to Sterling Heights, Blacks to southfield, and Whites are moving back to Detroit or to 55 mile road. Even in so called "diverse" cities, ethnicity and races congregate by neighborhood. [[mexican town, corktown...) It's just in our nature.

What you seem to be conflating is "segregation" and "discrimination". No one is being force placed into a ghetto because of state sanctioned racial discrimination.
We've replaced de jure segregation with de facto... Until we restrain movement or restrict property rights, we'll never end voluntary segregation. DPS could become a model school district tomorrow and it wouldn't change a damn thing.

[Towne Cluber]

the country as a whole is pretty darn segregated....so I think the people HAVE decided.

FWIW.. regarding the thread's topic, GP North's Student Newspaper takedown of the flagrantly dishonest Fox News report and a demand, ignored thus far, for an apology.

https://twitter.com/thenorthpointe/s...563328/photo/1

I wouldn't call high school newspaper students "journalists" anymore than I would call high school Model UN students "diplomats". Although they certainly raised some good points, there also seems to be a good deal of arrogance on their part.

[bailey]

I wouldn't call high school newspaper students "journalists" anymore than I would call high school Model UN students "diplomats". Although they certainly raised some good points, there also seems to be a good deal of arrogance on their part.

Well, they do actually produce a newspaper ...whereas model UN kids are basically playing make believe. Semantics aside, their basic journalistic standards ...you know, like actually speaking to the "traumatized" girl, seem to be far and away higher than anyone at Fox News.

[Towne Cluber]

Well, they do actually produce a newspaper ...whereas model UN kids are basically playing make believe. Semantics aside, their basic journalistic standards ...you know, like actually speaking to the "traumatized" girl, seem to be far and away higher than anyone at Fox News.

1. A high school newspaper and a city newspaper aren't anywhere close to comparable. [[The judgment, opinions, and life experience of 14-18 year olds)

2. The high school newspaper says it "spoke with the girl" but no quote[[s) from her. [[Basic journalistic standards)

3. The high school newspaper is reporting on something they're directly involved with, their school and their friends/classmates. It's not like they're an outside third party. [[Basic journalistic standards)

4. The high school newspaper criticizes the tv news report for [[supposedly) adding opinion to the story...while also adding opinion their own story.

5. Fox News, MSNBC, and every news source for that matter.

6. 'Basic' is the key word. Far and away more than simply a matter of semantics.

[dtowncitylover]

I wouldn't call high school newspaper students "journalists" anymore than I would call high school Model UN students "diplomats". Although they certainly raised some good points, there also seems to be a good deal of arrogance on their part.

Point of order, chair. I was a diplomat, thank you!

[313WX]

1. A high school newspaper and a city newspaper aren't anywhere close to comparable. [[The judgment, opinions, and life experience of 14-18 year olds)

2. The high school newspaper says it "spoke with the girl" but no quote[[s) from her. [[Basic journalistic standards)

3. The high school newspaper is reporting on something they're directly involved with, their school and their friends/classmates. It's not like they're an outside third party. [[Basic journalistic standards)

4. The high school newspaper criticizes the tv news report for [[supposedly) adding opinion to the story...while also adding opinion their own story.

5. Fox News, MSNBC, and every news source for that matter.

6. 'Basic' is the key word. Far and away more than simply a matter of semantics.

Well said.

While Fox 2's story wasn't perfect, they didn't report anything that was false as far as the events that took place. The arrogence of those who wrote the school newspaper commentary, as if they're entitled to an apology, makes them look just as bad [[interestingly enough, the authoras were all women...).