Controversy over male on female assault at Grosse Pointe North [[video)

[nain rouge]

A lot of whites in Detroit neighborhoods were not exactly the privileged children of slaveowners, but were children of immigrants themselves who had been discriminated against [[Irish, Polish, Italian) who were recenlty considered scum.

Oh yeah, those Polish had it tough, brought over here in slave ships and all. Remember when Polish people were forced to sit in the back of the bus? Or when we forced them to go to separate but equal Polish schools and drink from Polish drinking fountains?

Oh wait, that's right. None of that happened. When did the Polish ever go through anything like the 1943 Detroit race riot?

Sorry, but you're in denial. And this is coming from someone with Polish and Italian ancestry.

[Wheels]

Oh yeah, those Polish had it tough, brought over here in slave ships and all. Remember when Polish people were forced to sit in the back of the bus? Or when we forced them to go to separate but equal Polish schools and drink from Polish drinking fountains?

Oh wait, that's right. None of that happened. When did the Polish ever go through anything like the 1943 Detroit race riot?

Sorry, but you're in denial. And this is coming from someone with Polish and Italian ancestry.

Are you serious? Ever hear of a man named Hitler? Ever hear of the Warsaw Getto?
Wake up and smell the coffee! Blacks were not the only oppressed race!

[MAcc]

It seems that the Grosse Pointes are at a critical junction. The question is this: are the Grosse Pointes worth saving, or are they disposable as the vast majority of Detroit was deemed. Are Grosse Pointers going to bail and not fight to preserve there unique communities [[excellent housing stock, cute business districts, lakefront parks/beaches, rich history/legacy, etc), or are the people going to do something about it. Can somebody just stand up and fight for once instead of just bailing like Detroitboy is advocating. The Grosse Pointes are too unique to allow them to decline.

There are "Grosse Pointes" in or next to every Rust Belt city. It's not that nobody cares to save them, it's the cost and time to do so usually isn't worth the hassle. Is the average upper middle class family's life that different if they live in Rochester Hills or Birmingham vs Grosse Pointe Farms? It will be interesting to see how the Pointes shake out over the next 5 years [[2020 census).

[MAcc]

Translated: See, it's not a racial issue. I just can't stand their test scores. They won't get a drop of MY child's precious financial resources.

Correct. People don't pay huge taxes and buy overpriced houses to have their contributions to the pool squandered on baby sitting kids that don't care about school. That would go against what made the neighborhood and district desirable in the first place.

[canuck]

Are you serious? Ever hear of a man named Hitler? Ever hear of the Warsaw Getto?
Wake up and smell the coffee! Blacks were not the only oppressed race!

African-Americans had it a lot worse for longer than other groups you care to mention except for the First Nations of course. You get a big zip in History.

[nain rouge]

There are "Grosse Pointes" in or next to every Rust Belt city. It's not that nobody cares to save them, it's the cost and time to do so usually isn't worth the hassle.

To an extant. Detroit was a top 5 city for decades. It was during that time when the Pointes were largely established. The Grosse Pointes should be like Park Forest and Oak Park in Chicago. Instead, in typical Metro Detroit fashion, we can't wait to trade it all in for the blandest of McMansions.

[Wesley Mouch]

African-Americans had it a lot worse for longer than other groups you care to mention except for the First Nations of course. You get a big zip in History.

Usually, Canadians have a wider world-view than Americans. That's been my experience. To think that African-Americans or First Nations lead the parade of histories oppressed is quite self-centered. The world is full of murderous oppressors. Mercifully little oppression was poured on anyone is the US by comparison.

Was there oppression of blacks and First Nations? Why of course. But we've addressed it quite well. There remain millions of people in the world today who would give everything they own to move to the US or Canada and live in our worst neighborhoods.

Please don't tell me I'm ignoring the suffering. Not for a second am I ignorant of the oppression suffered upon our own in North America.

Poles, 1 in 6 killed in WWII. 6 million our of 30 million.
Jews, 6 million killed in WWII, but hated and displaced for centuries

American slavery does not rank in the big leagues of oppression.

[mwilbert]

Usually, Canadians have a wider world-view than Americans. That's been my experience. To think that African-Americans or First Nations lead the parade of histories oppressed is quite self-centered. The world is full of murderous oppressors. Mercifully little oppression was poured on anyone is the US by comparison.

Was there oppression of blacks and First Nations? Why of course. But we've addressed it quite well. There remain millions of people in the world today who would give everything they own to move to the US or Canada and live in our worst neighborhoods.

Please don't tell me I'm ignoring the suffering. Not for a second am I ignorant of the oppression suffered upon our own in North America.

Poles, 1 in 6 killed in WWII. 6 million our of 30 million.
Jews, 6 million killed in WWII, but hated and displaced for centuries

American slavery does not rank in the big leagues of oppression.

This post is sufficiently disjointed that it is hard to address as a whole, but I think I would make a few points.

There isn't a scale of oppression that makes comparisons straightforward, but I would say based upon the length of time it persisted, the nature of the treatment involved, and the number of people affected, that the American treatment of blacks, both in slavery and subsequently, is a pretty substantial piece of oppression.

People being killed in wars in not generally considered oppression. It is a bad thing, but a different bad thing. Certainly the treatment of Jews under the Nazis was oppressive, but I really think that the murder of the Jewish populations of central and eastern Europe was also something different.

The idea that lots of people wanting to migrate to the US means that we have addressed the issues of people in the US who were historically oppressed just seems like nonsense to me. A lot of people living in Haiti would probably be happy to trade places with some black resident of Brightmoor, but all that means is that living in Haiti has, on average, a lot of disadvantages relative to living in Brightmoor. It doesn't mean that black people living in Brightmoor don't have, on average, a lot of disadvantages relative to a typical American.

[sumas]

Disjointed perhaps. Thought I might share a story. A story that haunts me. A jew that survived a pogram German "camp".

Mister Issy, survived a concentration camp. The Germans took him out to a killing field, shot him in the head. The weather was so cold, his head congealed. He limped back. The Allies freed that camp.

War is oppression!

He has a metal plate in his head. His joke is "I never get a head ache"

[Gpwrangler]

If the discussion turned to police behavior this thread would follow exactly like every other thread on this board.

[Zacha341]

Poles, 1 in 6 killed in WWII. 6 million our of 30 million.
Jews, 6 million killed in WWII, but hated and displaced for centuries

Murder and inhumanity American slavery does not rank in the big leagues of oppression.

Nor the smallest league of oppression with an estimated approximate 1.2 – 2.4 million Africans who died during their transport and arrival to the New World. The Chinese revolution under Mao gets way, WAY up there in the numbers.

Mans cruelty and inhumanity upon many races/ peoples is legion, historically.

[aj3647]

Translated: See, it's not a racial issue. I just can't stand their test scores. They won't get a drop of MY child's precious financial resources.

So when middle class African Americans started fleeing Detroit by the tens of thousands starting in the 1990's, seeking safer neighborhoods and better schools, were they also being racist against black people? Or it is only racist when white people move for those reasons?

Because you seem to be making a blanket generalization that when white people choose to move to better performing school districts, it's because they are racist. But that would seemingly ignore the tens of thousands of African-Americans who fled Detroit in two decades of uninterrupted Black Flight seeking better schools for their kids and safer neighborhoods, i.e. literally the EXACT SAME REASONS that make white people "racist" when they move.

Nice double standard...

[Gpwrangler]

So when middle class African Americans started fleeing Detroit by the tens of thousands starting in the 1990's, seeking safer neighborhoods and better schools, were they also being racist against black people? Or it is only racist when white people move for those reasons?

Because you seem to be making a blanket generalization that when white people choose to move to better performing school districts, it's because they are racist. But that would seemingly ignore the tens of thousands of African-Americans who fled Detroit in two decades of uninterrupted Black Flight seeking better schools for their kids and safer neighborhoods, i.e. literally the EXACT SAME REASONS that make white people "racist" when they move.

Nice double standard...

Hmmmmmm...as I recall lots of the folks who moved had grown kids...I'm thinking it wasn't all about the schools...

[nain rouge]

But that would seemingly ignore the tens of thousands of African-Americans who fled Detroit in two decades of uninterrupted Black Flight seeking better schools for their kids and safer neighborhoods, i.e. literally the EXACT SAME REASONS that make white people "racist" when they move.

First we have people comparing the plight of the Polish American to the African American [[I mean, seriously? Do I even need to dignify that with a response?). Now this.

Look, when blacks fled Detroit, the problems in the city were orders of magnitude worse than what we see now in Grosse Pointe Woods or Ferndale. Again, it's just not an apples to apples comparison. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't have crumbling infrastructure and schools. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't have out of control crime. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't suffer from severe disinvestment. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't have abandoned buildings everywhere.

To say that a white person leaving Grosse Pointe Woods as it is right now is anything like leaving Detroit in the '90s is the height of self-delusion.

[313WX]

First we have people comparing the plight of the Polish American to the African American [[I mean, seriously? Do I even need to dignify that with a response?). Now this.

It's a textbook fallacy [[false equivalency) used whenever a person can't win a debate with relevant facts and logic.

Sometimes, it's just best NOT to dignify these responses...

[canuck]

Just saying the welcome committee for southern AA's to Detroit wasn't as warm as for new arrivals from Europe. Lol

Also, not all Polish or Russian immigrants were poor and unconnected. Opportunities for whites were clearly better, and a spirit of confidence agreed with them, not so for ghettoized blacks in many areas of the country. I mean Jewish people had to deal with plenty of iniquity when they didn't relinquish their faiths or last names but no blacks ever owned Jewish slaves in the U.S. whereas the opposite is true. Benjamin Judah became the Secretary of State of the Confederacy. No chance a black would have managed that...

When hundreds of thousands of folks changed their names from Frazier to Ali or Washington to Jabbar, there was a message of faith and hope in that, but also a fair bit of despair, no?

[Wesley Mouch]

Nor the smallest league of oppression with an estimated approximate 1.2 – 2.4 million Africans who died during their transport and arrival to the New World. The Chinese revolution under Mao gets way, WAY up there in the numbers.

Mans cruelty and inhumanity upon many races/ peoples is legion, historically.

Wow. I did not know that, and didn't think about that. [[Forum can be a great inspiration for learning.) It certainly is depressing, and does bring it to the big leagues of oppression.

And I'm blown away by the 10 million number in Atlantic slave trade, along with several more million in 'seasoning camps'. Slavery does deserve a high spot in world oppression -- perhaps the highest. And remember that the world slave figures were no doubt multiples of that. Really does shine a light on the horror.

I'm a little confused about the 'destination' number of the Americas. Of 10m, 3.85m were destined to 'Portugese America'. Does that mean Brazil? How many were US slaves vs. North and South American?

[aj3647]

Look, when blacks fled Detroit, the problems in the city were orders of magnitude worse than what we see now in Grosse Pointe Woods or Ferndale. Again, it's just not an apples to apples comparison. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't have crumbling infrastructure and schools. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't have out of control crime. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't suffer from severe disinvestment. Grosse Pointe Woods and Ferndale don't have abandoned buildings everywhere.

News flash, people with means aren't going to wait until things look like Detroit in the 90's, they are going to leave well before that happens. I have relatives who live in Lincoln Park whose homes are worth less than half of what they were 20 years ago. So the proper time to have bailed on that city would have been 20 years ago, back when folks like you would have described it much in similar terms as the suburbs you're describing now.

[Bham1982]

Oh yeah, those Polish had it tough, brought over here in slave ships and all. Remember when Polish people were forced to sit in the back of the bus? Or when we forced them to go to separate but equal Polish schools and drink from Polish drinking fountains?

Oh wait, that's right. None of that happened. When did the Polish ever go through anything like the 1943 Detroit race riot?

Sorry, but you're in denial. And this is coming from someone with Polish and Italian ancestry.

Wow, you really show your incredible ignorance here.

Poland has been one of the most f---ed over countries in existence throughout history. Located between ruthless, expansionist Russia and Germany, it's historical narrative has basically been characterized by nonstop subjugation by neighbors.

I guess all the Metro Detroit Poles need to blame any shortcomings on the Nazis and Tsars and all that jazz. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[Bham1982]

Jubut no blacks ever owned Jewish slaves in the U.S. whereas the opposite is true.

This is simply not true. There were black slaveowners in the U.S. Historians agree on this point. I would wager there were far, far more black slaveowners overall than Jewish slaveowners, given that there were few Jews in the American south, no slaves in Europe [[where 90% of Jews lived) and blacks lived in tons of places with far more slavery than the U.S. [[Africa, Brazil, Caribbean and the like).

Why it's relevant, I have no idea. Why someone chooses a certain path in life in 2015 has no direct connection to the horrors of the slave trade, and no connection the race or religion of those involved. What does it matter if slaveowners were Vietnamese or Pakistani or Martians for that matter?

[nain rouge]

I guess all the Metro Detroit Poles need to blame any shortcomings on the Nazis and Tsars and all that jazz. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

But that has little bearing on the experience of Polish Americans in America. If you want to say that those issues have held the country of Poland back, then perhaps you have a point. But we're discussing what happened in America, not Europe.

Africa had some absolutely brutal armies and regimes historically that inflicted massive carnage. But I don't see African Americans blaming their problems on such issues. It's a complete non sequiter.

Just like many African-Americans have moved their kids into private or charter schools, or into the burbs, or between burbs, for the exact same fucking reason.

Right. And then white residents pull their kids out or move because of "falling test scores", since they're not racist.

THAT's the difference, man. Blacks don't pull their kids out of school when white people move in. You're being willfully blind here.

[Bham1982]

But that has little bearing on the experience of Polish Americans in America. If you want to say that those issues have held the country of Poland back, then perhaps you have a point. But we're discussing what happened in America, not Europe.

Why only America? What's the relevance? Why does the location matter for ascribing a legacy of
brutality?

There was no slavery in Michigan. Why don't we apply more arbitrary restrictions, and point out that there was no slavery "here" so no one living "here" should be held responsible. Blame Mississippi, not Michigan non-blacks, 95% of whom arrived after slavery had been abolished. My family came to the U.S. in the 1970's; why am I personally responsible for something prior to my family's arrival?

Africa had some absolutely brutal armies and regimes historically that inflicted massive carnage. But I don't see African Americans blaming their problems on such issues. It's a complete non sequiter.

Right, because that would be blaming black people, so it wouldn't fit the general script of the Sharptons of the world. Makes more sense to blame whitey in the present than the slave industry in Africa centuries ago. Nuance isn't on the agenda for the race hustlers of the world.

Right. And then white residents pull their kids out or move because of "falling test scores", since they're not racist.

THAT's the difference, man. Blacks don't pull their kids out of school when white people move in. You're being willfully blind here.

This probably true, to an extent, but kind of proves the point. Whites, Asians and Hispanics [[and black immigrants) don't have underclasses that are quite as marginalized and self-destructive, so obviously affluent blacks are less likely to be fleeing poor whites, Asians and Hispanics as everyone is [[including affluent blacks) likely to be fleeing blacks from the ghetto.

Blacks are rational actors like everyone else. Most blacks are middle class and want the same for their kids like everyone else, which is why Detroit is largely emptied of middle class blacks. But they are unlikely to be fleeing poor whites, because there is no such trend of poor whites entering rich black areas, and, if there were, there probably wouldn't be the same degree of neighborhood dysfunction as if blacks from the slums were moving in. Trashy whites, while certainly undesirable, are frankly a lower perceived threat to property values and schools.

And there is a correlation between rising % of black students in a school and falling test scores. Sad but true. Better to attack the problem then pretending it doesn't exist and blaming racism, instead of of the failings of DPS and the dysfunction in the underclass.

[canuck]

This is simply not true. There were black slaveowners in the U.S. Historians agree on this point. I would wager there were far, far more black slaveowners overall than Jewish slaveowners, given that there were few Jews in the American south, no slaves in Europe [[where 90% of Jews lived) and blacks lived in tons of places with far more slavery than the U.S. [[Africa, Brazil, Caribbean and the like).

Why it's relevant, I have no idea. Why someone chooses a certain path in life in 2015 has no direct connection to the horrors of the slave trade, and no connection the race or religion of those involved. What does it matter if slaveowners were Vietnamese or Pakistani or Martians for that matter?

You know what? You are right. There were quite a lot of black slaveowners. A number of successful ones employed white folks too. lots of laughs.

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/03/di...le-own-slaves/

[nain rouge]

There was no slavery in Michigan.

Here we go, another straw man argument. Detroit has a legacy of de facto segregation - Sojourner Truth, anyone? The 1943 riots really happened, you know.

My family came to the U.S. in the 1970's; why am I personally responsible for something prior to my family's arrival?

Because now you're an American. You don't get to pick which parts of our country's legacy you adopt. You're responsible for all of it, good and bad. That'd be like someone immigrating to America and claiming that none of their subsequent tax dollars should be used to service the preexisting debt, since all of that money was spent before them.

This probably true, to an extent, but kind of proves the point. Whites, Asians and Hispanics [[and black immigrants) don't have underclasses that are quite as marginalized and self-destructive, so obviously affluent blacks are less likely to be fleeing poor whites, Asians and Hispanics as everyone is [[including affluent blacks) likely to be fleeing blacks from the ghetto.

I'd argue that whites are just fearful of living in a majority Hispanic neighborhood as they are a majority black neighborhood. You don't see hipsters flocking to Mexicantown. They want to live somewhere where they can be the dominant culture.

Southfield is a perfect example of a good suburb that whites have fled for no sensible reason other than "OMG THE BLACKS!" When enough disinvestment occurs in Southfield that it begins to struggle [[as white's make up 70% of the Metro Detroit population and therefore control most of the area's wealth, especially since we got a head start on blacks), it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy for whites. And yet it proves nothing.

[FlyingJ]

That's why the Poles came here & that path was not easy[[google 'serf'), forced starvation, pogroms, invasion, rape, murder...all that good stuff. I really don't know why you post claiming bona fides of Polish [[google Pulaski, Kościuszko) & Italian[[Garibaldi) heritage while getting the history wrong. There's nothing from 400 years ago that makes it cool in 2015 for a punk to hurl a poor girl's face into an open locker from behind, on video, no less. But if you have a defense for latter-day misogynistic bullying & assault in a place of learning-i.e. they're all 'bitches & ho's'... A school where your daughter is hurt in an unprovoked attack IS 'failing', her parents would not be racist to pull her out of there. Same way Compton is now largely Hispanic. The African-American families were tired of the gang problem as well as skirmishes with the Hispanic community & moved out from South Central into the High Desert[[i.e. Antelope-or Mojave) Sadly so did the gangs. The African-American community does not hold their bad politicians accountable, so they get more of the same. Do you recall when Dan Rostenkowski had a Total Fail @ the Copernicus Center in CHICAGO, no less? http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...alth-insurance

But that has little bearing on the experience of Polish Americans in America. If you want to say that those issues have held the country of Poland back, then perhaps you have a point. But we're discussing what happened in America, not Europe.

Africa had some absolutely brutal armies and regimes historically that inflicted massive carnage. But I don't see African Americans blaming their problems on such issues. It's a complete non sequiter.

Right. And then white residents pull their kids out or move because of "falling test scores", since they're not racist.

THAT's the difference, man. Blacks don't pull their kids out of school when white people move in. You're being willfully blind here.