Guantanamo Bay, Michigan?

[Jimaz]

No bearing - that only applies to state charges. Someone convicted on Federal charges in Michigan can still be executed.

Thanks, lilpup. I thought that was the case. If it weren't then it might have taken Michigan out of the running.

[gazhekwe]

Hmmm, something about Detroitnerd's above definition of concentration camp has been bothering me.

He said: . Look up concentration camp: [[1901) a camp where persons [[as prisoners of war, political prisoners or refugees) are detained or confined.

I think this is a better definition:

Concentration camp: a place where prisoners of war, enemy aliens, and political prisoners are placed under armed guards. On occasion, officials of the US government used the term "concentration camp" to describe the places where Nikkei were incarcerated during World War II.
www.bijac.org/index.php

This definition still does not contain any description of treatment but it expands the prisoner list.

I did read earlier today that the plan included charging and trying some of those sent here, releasing some, and then deciding about the others. They don't seem to be planning on leaving the entire batch rotting uncharged, untried and locked up indefinitely. If they fall within the confines of our state, that does give us the opportunity to work directly for justice for these people.

[lilpup]

I don't think that can happen in any state, Jimaz, as long as the prosecution is in the Federal jurisdiction.

[Detroitnerd]

Hmmm, something about Detroitnerd's above definition of concentration camp has been bothering me.

Gaz: Technically, it's not mine. It's the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary's definition.

[Jimaz]

I read there would be a courthouse right within the prison. I suppose that's an improvement at least.

[Sludgedaddy]

....Let's all just feel good about ourselves in a Dr. Phil warm and fuzzy way....I'm O.K.....You're O.K....Everybody else Sucks.

Since our conflicts in Iran and Afganistan are really amounting to an eternal war ala Orwell's "1984"....Let's just "Have a Nice War" instead of just a Nice Day.

I recommend to attract this detention facility to Michigan, let's get one of those over-size statues of Paul Bunyan that they have in the now mostly unvisited parts of Northern Michican, extend Paul's beard, put a turban on his head, instead of a stocking cap, and call this new tourist trap icon: Osama Been Loggin'

[Detroitnerd]

I recommend to attract this detention facility to Michigan, let's get one of those over-size statues of Paul Bunyan that they have in the now mostly unvisited parts of Northern Michican, extend Paul's beard, put a turban on his head, instead of a stocking cap, and call this new tourist trap icon: Osama Been Loggin'

Just when I thought I couldn't crack a smile, you have me rollin' on the floor with that one, Sludge. Thanks for injecting a much-needed bit of levity into the discussion.

[unclefrank]

I want a job doing that!

[Homer]

Detnerd. You may not approve of detention centers, but it exists so why not here? Save a few jobs. I applaud your stand against the detention center and the innocents held there but you don't need to deny we need jobs here in MI.

[eriedearie]

I recommend to attract this detention facility to Michigan, let's get one of those over-size statues of Paul Bunyan that they have in the now mostly unvisited parts of Northern Michican, extend Paul's beard, put a turban on his head, instead of a stocking cap, and call this new tourist trap icon: Osama Been Loggin'

I bet the writers on the late night shows could use your way with words! I almost had hot tomato soup spewing towards my monitor!

[gnome]

Hot tomato soup! In August!? omg, the terrorist have won. We've now entered the Gorian dictated Ice Age wherein our frostback neighbors to the south are being force fed scalding fluids and then tickled to the point of spewage.

m m good.

[gnome]

oh, there was a POW camp at the State Fairgrounds during the war.

[Sludgedaddy]

During World War Two, Michigan was the site of a good number of POW camps. I need a better local historian than my half-assed self to confirm that the Michigan State Fairgrounds held a compound of Italian POW's. I have heard tales that many of the POW's had relatives from that country shaped like a boot here in Detroit. It was said that the camp was minimum security since the WW2 Italian soldier's salute was two upraised arms. Rumor has it that home cooked Italian food and wine was tossed over the fence to the prisoners and even going as far as copulating with Luigi through the fence.

On the other hand, I know for a fact many German POW's were confined in Michigan camps. Some existed in Michigan's UP and one for a fact existed in Croswell in Michigan's Thumb.Many prisoners were treated ironically, better than US Black Soldiers.

Prisoners were indoctranated with American propaganda such as access to Swing Music, motion pictures , trips to town, dances, etc. Many were put to work on Michigan farms helping with livestock or the harvest since many farmers in Michigan's Thumb were of German ancestry and spoke fluent German.

As a collector of oddities, I came across ,while digging in a trash pile at an estate sale around Unionville, a winter US Army coat with the letters PW written on the back and right upper sleeve probably worn by a Wehrmacht POW as he worked the fields. This I sold to a military collector for a goodly sum.

[gnome]

you want to know about state fair POWs? stop into Tom's Tavern and ask for Sarah. If she's there she'll tell you anything you desire. I'm sure you know to the escaped POW and the ring of spys at Pinky's.
tru,tru

[umtim]

I am opposed to this policy of keeping people in custody without charging them with something.
The people incarcerated without charge in Cuba do not scare me.
Somehow I think it would be easier for these people to get justice in the US than in Gitmo.
I believe too many people are in jail in the US. I believe too many people are in jail in Michigan.
I don't see any reason why Michigan ought not hold these men. I think the ACLU and Amnesty international will have on easier time working on their behalf here than Cuba.

[gazhekwe]

Here are the plans I saw:

*Moving all the [229] Guantanamo detainees to a single U.S. prison. The Justice Department has identified between 60 and 80 who could be prosecuted, either in military or federal criminal courts. The Pentagon would oversee the detainees who would face trial in military tribunals. The Bureau of Prisons, an arm of the Justice Department, would manage defendants in federal courts.
•Building a court facility within the prison site where military or criminal defendants would be tried. Doing so would create a single venue for almost all the criminal defendants, ending the need to transport them elsewhere in the U.S. for trial.

•Providing long-term holding cells for a small but still undetermined number of detainees who will not face trial because intelligence and counterterror officials conclude they are too dangerous to risk being freed.
•Building immigration detention cells for detainees ordered released by courts but still behind bars because countries are unwilling to take them.


http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1360419.html

[Sludgedaddy]

Thanks Gnome, I thought most of those tales of Italian POW,s were maybe folklore, but then again not. I am familiar with the Pinky's saga concerning the escaped Luftwaffe pilot from a Canadian POW camp and how he was feted by a local German citizen of Detroit to brothel visits and a few nights on the town. I understand the abettor was later tried for treason.

[Gistok]

Glad that some of you think that NIMBY applies to the entire state...

I think we should let the folks in Standish voice their own opinions on this one, rather than the shrill objections of a few posters here...

Concentration camp? Yeah right... New administration... new rules...

[Sludgedaddy]

...if anyone is interested in World War Two POW anecdotes here are a couple related to me by my late uncle and member of The Greatest Generation: Frank Terkoski:

Frank Terkoski fought his way from North Africa in 1942 up through Italy into Germany in 1945. He was later assigned as an MP herding and guarding German POW's who were surrendering in droves as the war ebbed.

To keep up fighting moral, young German soldiers were often told that if they surrendered to Black US troops that they were to be eaten in the style of cannibals. Capitalizing on this rumor, Frank would ,while in cahoots with Black buddies who were tankers or truckers, would lead a frightened very young German up to a Black soldier holding a knife and fork while licking his lips and emulating "Uncle George" from the Little Rascals saying "Yum, Yum, eat 'em Up". Frank would sadisticaly get a charge when one of the Kraut "kids" would piss his pants.

Another prank Uncle Frank would play, since he could speak German, was to bring a prisoner up to a Black Solder and say : "Fritz, do you know who he is? This is one of our secret weapons, we inject a GI with a chemical and he turns this color so you can't see him at night. Most Germans had never seen a Black person before and believed every word.

Rest in Peace, dear Uncle.

[Gistok]

For anyone who has ever visited Arenac County [[location of Standish)... it has to be one of the most destitute and God forsaken locations in Michigan [[in the lower peninnsula).

I have friends that live north of Standish [[along the Rifle River)... and the little enclave that they live in [[mostly UAW retirees) has the distinction of being the 2nd wealthiest enclave in the county [[which isn't saying much).

Arenac County is a very poor rural agricultural region littered with ramshackle farms [[many of the farmhouses have not been upgraded in decades). Besides the Rifle River and sprawling [[and scattered) Au Sable State Park, there's not much in Arenac County to do, and even less to do job wise.

One thing I noticed about Arenac County [[only 2 1/2 hrs. from metro Detroit) the 4 times I've visited there, is that if you don't belong there, you stand out like a sore thumb... which may be an appropriate place for incarceration of these terrorists.

And the State Penitentary near Standish is only 19 years old, and with a double wall of razor wire [[and well patrolled no-mans land with towers), it has never had a single escapee.

If the people of Arenac County want the Guantanamo detainees to be relocated there... that's their choice... it would be economic boom times for that remote depressing place... and that isn't saying much...

[firstandten]

I am opposed to this policy of keeping people in custody without charging them with something.
The people incarcerated without charge in Cuba do not scare me.
Somehow I think it would be easier for these people to get justice in the US than in Gitmo.
I believe too many people are in jail in the US. I believe too many people are in jail in Michigan.
I don't see any reason why Michigan ought not hold these men. I think the ACLU and Amnesty international will have on easier time working on their behalf here than Cuba.

How do you handle the small number of detainees who you can't convict in a court of law because you waterboarded or otherwise tortured them but your intel indicates they are serious terrorist threats with probably some skills that could do us real harm ?

[Bong-Man]

Ha ! This entire issue cracks me up. People actually think it's some other country in the world that are experts at incarcerating prisoners, when no one does it better and more efficiently than us.

[gnome]

Agreed Gistok, Arenac is far from being a garden spot...I do have dead relatives in Arenac, so I've visited there maybe a dozen times. It is the perfect place for dead relatives or Boo Radley whannaBees.

You are spot-on with the whole sore-thumb thing. In contrast to Detroit, where an orange jumpsuit could be considered a fashion statement or religous attire; in Standish said jumpsuit will alert the neighbors to release the hounds and sharpen the pitchfork.

[exdetroiter]

Send them to Texas with Bush and Kwame

[GPCharles]

There were German/Italian POW camps in Michigan during WWII, including, [[i) Camp Allegan, [[ii) Camp Au Train, [[iii) Camp Evelyn, [[iv) Camp Owosso, [[v) Camp Pari, [[vi) Camp Raco, [[vi) Camp Sidnaw and [[vii) Fort Custer.

Not too many Japanese were ever taken prisoner.