What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[southen]

I dare say that comparing the nation's capital to Detroit, Baltimore and Cleveland is disingenuous when it comes to economic development.

[Zads07]

This is a great in-depth feature. This is the kind of story that people need to read about. https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...-detroit-arena

[SammyS]

This is a great in-depth feature. This is the kind of story that people need to read about. https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...-detroit-arena

It's often stated that cities like Chicago and NY have a "functionally corrupt" system that's justified as a means to an end. Detroit seems very much the same in that regard. Backroom meetings, secrecy, bribes, blackmail is business as usual for these players whereas average folks are limited by their morals and ethics.

[emu steve]

I dare say that comparing the nation's capital to Detroit, Baltimore and Cleveland is disingenuous when it comes to economic development.

I did think of that and if I were Mr. Evans I would not have said it.

One point which should be said and I haven't been able to make it clearly:

D.C.'s hit bottom in the early/mid 90s while the economy was booming and the city came back 'under new management.' It was roaring back in 2008 when the Great Recession came. The Great Recession hit and slowed things but it was only a temporary punch to the gut.

In Detroit's case, it was coming back, in the 00s [[think post-Super Bowl) when the Great Recession hit and things went to hell and the bankruptcy happened.

Now that we are further away from the Great Recession Detroit is getting its legs again. The city is spending money but balancing the budget.

As someone who lives in the D.C. area and worked about 30 years in D.C. I am very PROUD of Mr. Evans' statement about the fiscal health of D.C. government. Has the strongest finances of any big city, county, state in these United States.

D.C. made a lot of bold moves: Building the Reaves Center on 14th Street when people, including me, thought they were crazy to do so. Building a new convention center. Building Verizon Center. Building Nationals' Park. Building D.C. United's stadium [[in progess). Jack Evans has been behind many if not most of them. A new Wizards practice facility [[and home of the WNBA team) across the Anacostia is being built now [[I think it is under construction).

They really learned how to leverage development. D.C. announces something [[or even rumors of something) and a big land rush happens.

As I have mentioned many times, D.C. has reversed the flow of residents from the city to the suburbs and now people are moving from the suburbs to the city.

it is re-building a beautiful new Frederick Douglass Memorial Bridge near National Park over the Anacostia [[contracts signed this summer). Trying to build homeless shelters in each ward. As indicated, building a soccer stadium.

[emu steve]

This is a great in-depth feature. This is the kind of story that people need to read about. https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...-detroit-arena

My response:

Acquiring develop-able land over what 15 years is crazy.

Eminent domain, while not always perfect, avoids the ugliness of site acquisition for large development [[needing a lot of acres). Makes it possible to build big things in urban areas which were previously developed instead of going out to the distant suburbs looking for undeveloped land.

As Gistok has mentioned many times here, the original plan seemed to be to build behind the Fox but plans were stymied by the inability to get all of the needed land as some held out and other land owners who couldn't be located.

This wasn't like the Hudson site or the fail jail site where the sites are under [[single) government control.

Again, I'll make a point I've made before: D.C. used eminent domain to build Nationals Park, the D.C. United soccer stadium, etc.

It took D.C. about 3 years to debate, pass legislation, do eminent domain and build a baseball stadium.

It took Detroit say 15+ years to debate, pass legislation, site acquisition and build the arena...

[Bham1982]

I dare say that comparing the nation's capital to Detroit, Baltimore and Cleveland is disingenuous when it comes to economic development.

Ya think?

I dare say 90% of this thread is disingenuous, boosterish nonsense, from people who would sell their first-born to get another subsidized sports stadium. Cricket anyone?

[mikeg19]

Anyone else notice that the Eddystone was lit up last night?

[dtowncitylover]

Cricket anyone?

As much as I enjoy cricket, rugby would be neat to have but only if the authentic atmosphere of drinking and rowdiness comes along with it.

[Zads07]

My response:

Acquiring develop-able land over what 15 years is crazy.

Eminent domain, while not always perfect, avoids the ugliness of site acquisition for large development [[needing a lot of acres). Makes it possible to build big things in urban areas which were previously developed instead of going out to the distant suburbs looking for undeveloped land.

As Gistok has mentioned many times here, the original plan seemed to be to build behind the Fox but plans were stymied by the inability to get all of the needed land as some held out and other land owners who couldn't be located.

This wasn't like the Hudson site or the fail jail site where the sites are under [[single) government control.

Again, I'll make a point I've made before: D.C. used eminent domain to build Nationals Park, the D.C. United soccer stadium, etc.

It took D.C. about 3 years to debate, pass legislation, do eminent domain and build a baseball stadium.

It took Detroit say 15+ years to debate, pass legislation, site acquisition and build the arena...

D.C. is not Detroit. Why aren't you discussing how corruption in the city helped build this new arena? Why are you such a champion of an arena that was half funded by taxpayers?

[emu steve]

D.C. is not Detroit. Why aren't you discussing how corruption in the city helped build this new arena? Why are you such a champion of an arena that was half funded by taxpayers?

IF [[I doubt it) you read my post [[the Wash. Times article) that D.C. borrowed money for the Nationals Park and the revenue attributable to the stadium GREATLY exceeds the debt service.

The question and none of the so-called 'experts' on this forum address:

What are the annual debt service and annual revenues attributable to the arena?

Until someone answers that question we really don't know what we are arguing about. The whole 300M+ argument is completely phony any more than my bank 'gave me' money for a house purchase.

If the revenues are roughly equal to the debt service then there is NO gift any more than a bank giving a home buyer 250k up front in return for say 30 years of mortgage payments is a "gift." It is a business transaction which is done every business day.

1). How much do the Wings pay annually for usage of the arena?

2). How much do the Pistons pay annually?

3). Any ticket tax or other monies from tickets purchased by Wings, Pistons or other events? USE TAX. Someone uses the arena [[attends an event) and pays to do so. Just like a toll on a toll road.

4). How much non-resident income taxes paid by performers who perform at LCA?

5). How much will be raised by tax increment on downtown businesses?

[Zads07]

IF [[I doubt it) you read my post [[the Wash. Times article) that D.C. borrowed money for the Nationals Park and the revenue attributable to the stadium GREATLY exceeds the debt service.

The question and none of the so-called 'experts' on this forum address:

What are the annual debt service and annual revenues attributable to the arena?

Until someone answers that question we really don't know what we are arguing about. The whole 300+M argument is completely phony and more than my bank 'gave me' money for a house purchase.

If the revenues are roughly equal to the debt service then there is NO gift any more than a bank giving a home buyer 250k up front in return for say 30 years of mortgage payments is a gift.

1). How much do the Wings pay annually for usage of the arena?

2). How much do the Pistons pay annually?

3). Any ticket tax or other monies from tickets purchased by Wings, Pistons or other events?

4). How much non-resident income taxes paid by performers who perform at LCA?

5). How much will be raised by tax increment on downtown businesses?

No I didn't read the Times article because I don't give a fuck about DC because DETROIT IS NOT DC. Your championing of a taxpayer funded arena is ridiculous. All these questions you are asking are the exact questions that the news outlets haven't asked. Yet you champion the arena and the positive reviews by those outlets.

[emu steve]

Sir, you are complete off base...

Financing a stadium has the same principles [[and principal, money) regardless of the city. The city puts up money and then collects revenues to offset the debt service.

The key factor, in case you don't know, is NOT the city but the type of facility.

Baseball is 81 games + post season + other events = say 100 events / year.

Football is what 10 games + other events = say 20 or 25 events / year.

A NHL/NBA arena can be maybe 150 - 175 events per year.

Baseball stadiums and arenas can make sense financially to the city or whomever is helping finance.

Quite frankly an arena is the best. LCA might have 2.5M patrons over the next 12 months. The price of tickets are not cheap. Host teams can afford to pay more back to the city as rent.

Football stadiums are almost always money LOSERS, and big money [[that is why St. L, S.D, and Oakland don't want to put up big bucks for a limited use facility).

As far my questions and non-answers:

The print copy of Crains says Olympia will pay 11.5M / year to DDA for debt retirement [[page L16).

I know the city will get other monies from non -resident performers' tax [[e.g., NBA players, Kid Rock, Bocelli, etc.), tax increment monies on downtown businesses, etc.

From what I have read, the city probably did pretty well to ensure the revenue stream is approximately equal to the debt service.

Basically, an interest free loan which is not a bad deal for the city.

[emu steve]

Here is an article by Bill Shea [[Crain's) who does or used to post here, on the various stadiums/arena in Detroit:

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...-stadiums-cost

I was almost shocked to see how much Olympia/Little Caesars is paying for the money they borrowed:

11.5M / year to DDA for debt retirement

AND [[I had NO idea):

6M / year for naming rights [[Little Caesars is paying 120M over 20 years).

That is 17.5M dollars per year that DDA is getting for their 'loan'.

And contrast to Crains, dollars and cents reporting, after all they are a business newspaper and hopefully understand this kind of stuff we get this 'yellow journalism' from Metro Times:

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...-detroit-arena

"Despite the rest of greater downtown's upward trajectory, the city and state's politicians rewarded Ilitch for executing his plan with $324 million worth of public assistance for the project. "

So when GM goes to the bond market and borrows say 300M it is considered a fair, equitable deal that is the hallmark of capitalism [[borrowing capital is the 'oxygen' which capitalism is built; we saw that in 2008 when capital markets virtually shut down and the economy almost collapsed.).

When essentially Olympia goes to DDA and borrows $324M and pays $17.5M / year debt service it is called 'public assistance.'

Wow!!! There is great journalism in America. And there junk.

I have no respect for the MT article and the writer. I think he should issue a retraction and apologize.

I do have respect for the city leaders, whom I think, struck a very good deal for the city.

If folks think it is a bad deal, get a couple WSU business professors who specialize in public sector finance, accounting, etc. and let them debate it.

[401don]

[QUOTE=emu steve;533547]-detroits-stadiums-cost

11.5M / year to DDA for debt retirement

AND [[I had NO idea):

6M / year for naming rights [[Little Caesars is paying 120M over 20 years).

That is 17.5M dollars per year that DDA is getting for their 'loan'.

I thought Olympia was given the right to sell naming rights. Why would they be paying that revenue to the DDA?

[emu steve]

[QUOTE=401don;533554]

-detroits-stadiums-cost

11.5M / year to DDA for debt retirement

AND [[I had NO idea):

6M / year for naming rights [[Little Caesars is paying 120M over 20 years).

That is 17.5M dollars per year that DDA is getting for their 'loan'.

I thought Olympia was given the right to sell naming rights. Why would they be paying that revenue to the DDA?

I think you are right. Sounds like Little Caesars is paying Olympia.

So I think 11.5M is the correct number, unless proven otherwise. I assume it is the number needed for debt retirement.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...-caesars-arena

[emu steve]

BTW, I was in the area both Saturday and Sunday. Asked someone about what are the frame for what appears to be one story retail by the Chevrolet Plaza. Apparently there was a construction issue with the materials.

Sounds like there is a 'hold' on some external parts of adjacent development.

[313rd]

BTW, I was in the area both Saturday and Sunday. Asked someone about what are the frame for what appears to be one story retail by the Chevrolet Plaza. Apparently there was a construction issue with the materials.

Sounds like there is a 'hold' on some external parts of adjacent development.

• The Arena Lofts, at 120 Henry, which will have 153 residential units and first-floor retail just steps from the arena itself. Work is expected to start this year.
• One Eleven West, at 111 Henry, will offer 80 new residential units and first-floor retail just south of the arena, with work expected to begin this year. The building will be geared toward "millennials and anyone who can use a smartphone" with keyless entries and high-speed broadband Internet connections.

What you see is the Arena Lofts which is the Five Story Building on the right side of the rendering. Then the backside of the parking garage is the One Eleven West Residential.

[southen]

Sounds like there is a 'hold' on some external parts of adjacent development.

Now that the arena is up and running look for everything else to progress at a glacial pace. It is the Ilitch way.

[Zads07]

Got my first look at the complex on Saturday. There's still lots of construction going on including the arena, it's not finished yet. There were lights on at the Eddystone when I walked by it at night though, so I find that to be a good sign.

All-in-all, impressed though by the work put into the arena and the sightlines of the place.

[emu steve]

Indeed, Zads07. It does appear that no expense was spared to make the building/project the best money could buy. Didn't see any gold plated toilets but otherwise state of the art.

I was very impressed by the acoustics [[and the organ!!!). Those attending the Bocelli concert in December will be in for a treat.

Sometimes folks forget that arena are multi-function buildings [[not just sporting venues) and great acoustics are very, very important.

During my visit to LCA everything went perfect [[but the crowd wasn't big or maybe they didn't care much to watch a pre-season game so they might have been in the concourse doing their thing). It was much like a 'soft opening' for hockey.

To repeat a comment I might have made elsewhere, but Saturday night in Detroit was more like NYC or something. I was stunned to see folks lined up for blocks waiting to get in the Fillmore. [[Were there two shows Saturday evening?).

[mikeg19]

I heard on the radio yesterday that one of the Pistons players was complaining that they thought there would be more basketball memorabilia incorporated into the stadium and it looked like basketball was an afterthought.

Well, it kinda was......

[401don]

I heard on the radio yesterday that one of the Pistons players was complaining that they thought there would be more basketball memorabilia incorporated into the stadium and it looked like basketball was an afterthought.

Well, it kinda was......

Still, there was plenty of time to change interior color schemes and displays. It makes you wonder what the ownership split really is.

[Bham1982]

Indeed, Zads07. It does appear that no expense was spared to make the building/project the best money could buy. Didn't see any gold plated toilets but otherwise state of the art.

I was very impressed by the acoustics [[and the organ!!!). Those attending the Bocelli concert in December will be in for a treat.

Sometimes folks forget that arena are multi-function buildings [[not just sporting venues) and great acoustics are very, very important.

During my visit to LCA everything went perfect [[but the crowd wasn't big or maybe they didn't care much to watch a pre-season game so they might have been in the concourse doing their thing). It was much like a 'soft opening' for hockey.

To repeat a comment I might have made elsewhere, but Saturday night in Detroit was more like NYC or something. I was stunned to see folks lined up for blocks waiting to get in the Fillmore. [[Were there two shows Saturday evening?).

LOL, this is awesome and without a hint of irony.

If you aren't on the Illitch payroll, you certainly should be.

[emu steve]

LOL, this is awesome and without a hint of irony.

If you aren't on the Illitch payroll, you certainly should be.

I wish I had a free ticket for Saturday night's game. Could have saved some money.

I have a friend who with his wife are visiting Detroit in mid/late October. No, I didn't give him the Anderson Cooper eye roll when he told me.

He is a big Philadelphia 76ers basketball fan and they will play the Pistons while he is in town... [[If he had been in D.C. October 15, he could have gone with me to watch the 76ers/Wizards game locally).

I put in the plug for the arena as a great athletic venue.

His wife wants to see The Henry Ford, Gross Points, etc.

They have been married a long time and know how to balance 'diversity of interests.'

[Zads07]

Still, there was plenty of time to change interior color schemes and displays. It makes you wonder what the ownership split really is.

The arena was built as a home for the Red Wings and the Pistons are looked as guests in this arena. Maybe they'll make changes in the future, but it was too far into the process to make changes this year. There's still Pistons-related construction going on in the arena right now.