What is going on at Red Wings arena site?

[Bham1982]

And on the flip side, Gandhi could come back to life to donate $1 trillion dollars to Detroit, and the MetroTimes would find a way to criticize it. And then give you an ad for the hottest strip club in Taylor.

Absurd logic. Name a case where some selfless benefactor positively impacted Detroit and Metro Times criticized it?

MT did a great job pointing out the absurd "journalism" from the Freep and DetNews, both of which have been reduced to propaganda cheering sections for sports billionaires, spouting faknews scenarios of an "empty" neighborhood and the "revitalization" via parking lot.

This region would probably be much better if it just got rid of professional sports. The teams basically all suck, and the fans are [[mostly) a bunch of mindless drones. They would sooner give their last dollar to rapacious billionaires than pay for safe streets, clean water, and good schools. They think pretty much all working class people [[except for themselves, of course) are "welfare queens", while deifying sleazy billionaires.

[emu steve]

Absurd logic. Name a case where some selfless benefactor positively impacted Detroit and Metro Times criticized it?

MT did a great job pointing out the absurd "journalism" from the Freep and DetNews, both of which have been reduced to propaganda cheering sections for sports billionaires, spouting faknews scenarios of an "empty" neighborhood and the "revitalization" via parking lot.

This region would probably be much better if it just got rid of professional sports. The teams basically all suck, and the fans are [[mostly) a bunch of mindless drones. They would sooner give their last dollar to rapacious billionaires than pay for safe streets, clean water, and good schools. They think pretty much all working class people [[except for themselves, of course) are "welfare queens", while deifying sleazy billionaires.

MT isn't mainstream media. They are an 'alternative' newspaper.

As far as the Freep and Detnews, both were around before the Tigers, Lions, Redwings and Pistons.

I hardly consider the Freep a tool of business interests, etc. although I think most folks realize that without thriving, growing businesses communities do not thrive.

I grew up reading both papers. The Freep is more liberal editorially and the Detnews conservative.

As far as sports, each of the millions of Detroit-area residents are capable of making their own decisions whether they do or do not want to follow sports.

I would never tell anyone that they should or should not follow sports, what flavor ice cream to eat, how to cook eggs, etc.

[Zozo]

Absurd logic. Name a case where some selfless benefactor positively impacted Detroit and Metro Times criticized it?

Jack White has done a lot for Detroit, before and after he left for Nashville in 2006. Yet when he departed, MT criticized him across an entire issue. These petty articles have long been removed from the MT archive. I'm sure there are other examples too, but who reads MT anymore?

[EGrant]

Get rid of sports??? This thread has gone off the rails.


Anyway, lots of finishing touches have gone up.

New Pistons banner things are up.

The jewel skin is lit up.

They've installed "spirit murals" on the outside that feature Joe Louis, Eminem, Aretha, Gordie Howe and Isiah Thomas.

They've also been testing a projection system on the ice that makes it look 3D.

[emu steve]

Get rid of sports??? This thread has gone off the rails...

Yep.

I've never heard that statement 'get rid of sports..." before in my life.

A first time ever and here at the DY forum.

Most local governments try to move heaven and earth to get sports teams to come or remain in their cities...

[emu steve]

https://twitter.com/DistrictDetroit/status/904702009638518784

[313rd]

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/9/7/...detroit-photos

Some great pictures in above link.

[clubboss]

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/9/7/...detroit-photos

Some great pictures in above link.

Pic's are cool, tks for sharing...

[Bham1982]

Yep.

I've never heard that statement 'get rid of sports..." before in my life.

Then you're in a sports-fixated bubble.

The vast majority of people on earth don't particularly care about professional sports. If they all went away the world would go on just fine. Detroit would be no worse, perhaps better, if the teams all left.

[Bham1982]

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/9/7/...detroit-photos

Some great pictures in above link.

The arena looks really outdated and mediocre for a brand-new venue. Visitors won't believe it's new construction.

Looks like a 1990's arena, especially the exterior. Very 80's-90's timid postmodern style design.

[401don]

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/9/7/...detroit-photos

Some great pictures in above link.

You really have to search to find any Pistons décor. This place is wall-to-wall Red Wings.

[Bham1982]

You really have to search to find any Pistons décor. This place is wall-to-wall Red Wings.

Yup. This is a hockey arena, to the core.

The Pistons are just renting the place on game nights.

[EGrant]

I'm not one to complain about not having to go to Auburn Hills for Pistons games, but there is almost no Pistons stuff in this place. My hope is that over time, they will incorporate the team more, as it was a last-minute change. But I better not hear a single Wings fan complaining about the Pistons playing in "their" arena.

[DetroitSoldier]

Had this been a joint venture from the beginning, I think we would have seen much more Pistons inclusion in the decorative elements. I'm sure every location where there is a Pistons logo would have had a winged wheel if the JVA had not been completed.

I think everyone understands this is a hockey arena first and a basketball arena second. Even Tom Gores mentioned that they were brought on late in the program. Very little of the non-permanent elements such as player banners and signage can be changed out for little cost. I am certain that as time goes on the decorations will balance out.

Don't forget, the Detroit Red Wings are the third winningest professional hockey team in the history professional hockey, and the most marketable in the United States. Although the Detroit Pistons are one of the oldest teams in the NBA, they have a less than .500 all-time record, and are only tied for sixth all-time with 3 NBA titles. A sustained run of excellence, like the 2000's era would win over more visibility in Little Caesars Arena.

[Gistok]

The arena looks really outdated and mediocre for a brand-new venue. Visitors won't believe it's new construction.

Looks like a 1990's arena, especially the exterior. Very 80's-90's timid postmodern style design.

Yeah... it's missing that shiny trash compacted... carport roof design touches....

[Honky Tonk]

Absurd logic. Name a case where some selfless benefactor positively impacted Detroit and Metro Times criticized it?

MT did a great job pointing out the absurd "journalism" from the Freep and DetNews, both of which have been reduced to propaganda cheering sections for sports billionaires, spouting faknews scenarios of an "empty" neighborhood and the "revitalization" via parking lot.

This region would probably be much better if it just got rid of professional sports. The teams basically all suck, and the fans are [[mostly) a bunch of mindless drones. They would sooner give their last dollar to rapacious billionaires than pay for safe streets, clean water, and good schools. They think pretty much all working class people [[except for themselves, of course) are "welfare queens", while deifying sleazy billionaires.

No joke, I actually agree with you.

[emu steve]

Thank you Metro Times for making some solid points.

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...-the-new-arena

So, if my media score keeping is correct [[i'm using my fingers to keep count):

Positive reviews: Freep, Crains.

Negative review[[s): Metro Times

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article..._medium=social

[313rd]

I'm not one to complain about not having to go to Auburn Hills for Pistons games, but there is almost no Pistons stuff in this place. My hope is that over time, they will incorporate the team more, as it was a last-minute change. But I better not hear a single Wings fan complaining about the Pistons playing in "their" arena.

When walking thru the Arena you will notice plenty of Pistons Items and Musical/Performer Banners. There is a slight advantage to the RedWings with statues being brought over from JLA.

Three Large Banner Locations in the Via [[Yzerman, Steve Wonder, Isiah/Chauncy/Joe D), so one hockey, one musical and one basketball.

Manhole Covers are split up fairly even.

[313rd]

South Via has equal Pistons/Wings Players along the Bowl. Outbuilding has Mick Jagger, Sawchuck, Bing, Garth Brooks, Delvechio?, not picture Chris Rock.

Not sure of why or what the importance of Jagger, Garth, Chris Rock?

[Zads07]

So, if my media score keeping is correct [[i'm using my fingers to keep count):

Positive reviews: Freep, Crains.

Negative review[[s): Metro Times

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article..._medium=social

Sorry EMU Steve, you're wrong. As a journalist this is what is being portrayed in the media.

Reviews on LCA with no hard hitting journalism and glorifying: Freep
Reviews with more in-depth stuff with the positives of LCA: Crain's
Reviews of the papers that are giving the glorifying reviews: Metro Times

Please understand how journalism works before commenting. Metro Times is absolutely correct here, they are calling out the top newspaper in the state for basically being PR for the LCA. Where's the hard-hitting, in-depth features on the money, the taxes, how quick the buildout was for the Pistons, the increase in ticket and concessions and why? That's what people need to know.

[401don]

South Via has equal Pistons/Wings Players along the Bowl. Outbuilding has Mick Jagger, Sawchuck, Bing, Garth Brooks, Delvechio?, not picture Chris Rock.

Not sure of why or what the importance of Jagger, Garth, Chris Rock?

Garth Brooks holds the Palace record with 5 consecutive sellouts [[This useless trivia fact in no way implies I have any interest in country music.)

[emu steve]

Sorry EMU Steve, you're wrong. As a journalist this is what is being portrayed in the media.

Reviews on LCA with no hard hitting journalism and glorifying: Freep
Reviews with more in-depth stuff with the positives of LCA: Crain's
Reviews of the papers that are giving the glorifying reviews: Metro Times

Please understand how journalism works before commenting. Metro Times is absolutely correct here, they are calling out the top newspaper in the state for basically being PR for the LCA. Where's the hard-hitting, in-depth features on the money, the taxes, how quick the buildout was for the Pistons, the increase in ticket and concessions and why? That's what people need to know.

I'm going to disagree with you and anyone with a knowledge of politics, public policy, etc. can relate.

This is a classic case like the Iraqi War where folks can study the situation, study the facts, and make their own opinions and there will be VERY strong opinions on EACH SIDE.

I've always implied that athletic facilities are value judgments with a lot of dimensions [[cost/benefits).

The one thing I think needs to be said, in order for Comerica, Ford Field, LCA to be built required a lot of enabling legislation by the city, county and state. No one slipped in 300M as a rider to some budget legislation.

In our form of governments, they made the judgement that the benefits out weigh the costs. Citizens/tax payers are free to agree or disagree, but elected leaders make decisions for the entire community [[city of Detroit in this case).

UNLESS, MT can show collusion, FCOI [[financial conflict of interest), or other illegalities there is 'no there there' just because someone disagrees with the outcome of a legislative process.

As far as your last few sentences, all of this has been discussed ad nausea and the folks in city hall still voted to proceed.

Anyone in elected government for Detroit, Wayne County, State of Michigan are very familiar with the issues you raise. Questions about athletic facilities, costs, subsidies, rent payments, community benefits, etc. etc. have been going on for many decades.

Lest I be wrong there have been many votes by the Detroit city council, the State of Michigan had to approve enabling legislation which the Gov signed.

None of this is done in the dark of night or how would I know about it? It has been all over the Freep, Detnews, and Crains.

[Zads07]

I'm going to disagree with you and anyone with a knowledge of politics, public policy, etc. can relate.

This is a classic case like the Iraqi War where folks can study the situation, study the facts, and make their own opinions and there will be VERY strong opinions on EACH SIDE.

I've always implied that athletic facilities are value judgments with a lot of dimensions [[cost/benefits).

The one thing I think needs to be said, in order for Comerica, Ford Field, LCA to be built required a lot of enabling legislation by the city, county and state. No one slipped in 300M as a rider to some budget legislation.

In our form of governments, they made the judgement that the benefits out weigh the costs. Citizens/tax payers are free to agree or disagree, but elected leaders make decisions for the entire community [[city of Detroit in this case).

UNLESS, MT can show collusion, FCOI [[financial conflict of interest), or other illegalities there is 'no there there' just because someone disagrees with the outcome of a legislative process.

As far as your last few sentences, all of this has been discussed ad nausea and the folks in city hall still voted to proceed.

Anyone in elected government for Detroit, Wayne County, State of Michigan are very familiar with the issues you raise. Questions about athletic facilities, costs, subsidies, rent payments, community benefits, etc. etc. have been going on for many decades.

Lest I be wrong there have been many votes by the Detroit city council, the State of Michigan had to approve enabling legislation which the Gov signed.

None of this is done in the dark of night or how would I know about it? It has been all over the Freep, Detnews, and Crains.

Can you show me the articles where the Freep has pressed Olympia for information on the LCA, more in-depth?

[EGrant]

When walking thru the Arena you will notice plenty of Pistons Items and Musical/Performer Banners. There is a slight advantage to the RedWings with statues being brought over from JLA.

Yeah I took the tour on Friday. The statues, Olympia letters, old boards from the Joe, winged wheel art, red and white signage, red seats, Kid Rock restaurant and bigger banners are all Wings-centric. I'm sure they'll add more Pistons stuff, but the Pistons are certainly guests at this point. Just happy I don't have to drive to Auburn Hills anymore.

[emu steve]

Is the first event tonight? If so, this discussion will really become historical [[actually it has been historical for some time).

Here is a very good article which I think is MUST reading about how D.C. and Nats Park went through some of the same issues as here. In D.C.'s case the time frame was compressed: Get a stadium approved and built in a few years or, I believe, risk losing the team.

This article discusses how the stadium was financed and how the revenue from the stadium is greater than the debt service, how the cash strapped city in 2009 actually used the 'surplus' income to deal with a short fall in the general fund, etc.

Here are a few paragraphs from a 2016 Washington Times article.

“We could easily pay it off after 20 years instead of 30 years, and maybe even faster than that,” said longtime D.C. council member Jack Evans, Ward 2 Democrat, the chairman of the council’s Committee on Finance and Revenue and the one who led the fight on the city council for funding for the ballpark that would help bring the Montreal Expos to Washington in 2004.
The cries of financial ruin and tax nightmares that ballpark opponents carried at the time into the debate against paying for the new ballpark ring hollow now, as the city’s coffers are overflowing with ballpark revenue. The city has $21 million a year more than needed to cover costs.
“The latest figures I am looking at from the CFO says, ‘I am pleased to certify that the latest cash collected from the ballpark fees are about $35 million annually — $21 million more than the amount needed,’” Evans said. “I’m guessing that the debt service on the outstanding debt is $14 million a year, and we collected $35 million — about $21 million more than what we need.”
The ballpark, which opened in 2008, was financed through three revenue streams that didn’t exist before it was built. One was a utility tax that fell on the federal government and some commercial businesses. There was no residential tax involved. The second was the ballpark fee — businesses paying different amounts based upon gross receipts. The third was the ballpark itself — the rent and the sales taxes collected on the ballpark. Those three streams were going to service the debt.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...on-jack-evans/

And more about what Nationals Park has meant development and tax wise from the D.C. councilman who is their financial expert:

"“The second part of the success story is the value of the land surrounding the ballpark,” Evans said. “Prior to construction, the land around the ballpark was kind of run-down. We didn’t collect a whole lot of taxes there. The land wasn’t worth much. Well, today, that has dramatically changed. You can see for yourself as you drive around there.“From my best estimate, we are collecting about $70 million additional revenue and property taxes every year, and there [are] sales taxes and income taxes as businesses locate and open up and residents move there,” Evans said. “You could be looking at an additional $100 million a year in additional tax revenue that wasn’t there before, and you cannot argue that it would have happened anyway. It happened because we built the ballpark.
“With every one of these major projects I’ve done .— the Verizon Center many years ago was a fight, a 7-6 vote on the council several times, and people argued that it was a terrible idea and would ruin downtown, but it was catalyst that produced the downtown we have today,” Evans said. “The Convention Center, all that fighting, and the convention center Marriott hotel — I’m told by Marriott [it] is one of their most profitable hotels in their system. It runs at the highest occupancy rate of any hotel around.
“Without these projects, I always say, and I don’t know if it is an accurate observation, but one nonetheless, we would be Detroit or Baltimore or Cleveland, places that never recovered from the demise that they hit,” Evans said. “The District of Columbia was largely bankrupt in 1995 with the control board and everything. Today, we are the most dynamic city in America. Finances are stronger than any city, county or state. These projects were catalysts that helped make that happen. Without them I am not sure we would have recovered.”

I dare say Councilman Jack Evans [[D.C.) knows more about municipal finance than anyone in D.C. or Detroit.

He is in a league of his own.