Detroit UAW 2 Tier Wage System

[Willi]

The thread remains focused on the 2 Tier sys. since this what the UAW is terrified of.
Taking it all down to the lowest wage.
Rebuilding, rebirth, evolution forward for Detroit
might let the UAW die entirely into RTW for MI

Fear mongering, hype, hysteria, is what large corporations do best in the USA.
Few would buy a car from a bankrupt corp
and that's okay, because others exist

Research, research, research vs. Media Hype
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigma...n-u-s-history/

GM used Bankruptcy Code Section 363,
which allows a company to sell assets
under a court-approved sale.
--General Motors filed for bankruptcy
in New York, with $82 billion in assets
and $173 billion in liabilities
---Taxpayers left holding the bag

USA needs to move forward, not backward

[Hermod]

what i don't understand is that [[from the bar graph) Toyota and Honda US plants are roughly equal to the Big 3 in labor costs per hour. If that be true, how come they beat the pants off the Big 3? Why isn't A Chrysler 200 even with the Camry or Accord in sales or desirability?

[Willi]

Well, no laws were broken.
Our goverment allowed the public screwing.
It's funny money, Billions here, Billions there
Before you know it ; a Trillion, no whooop, its okay
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Whose money was it.............................

,

[emu steve]

Well, no laws were broken.
Our goverment allowed the public screwing.
It's funny money, Billions here, Billions there
Before you know it ; a Trillion, no whooop, its okay
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Whose money was it.............................

,

Actually, Willi, I believe the final reckoning was that the U.S. government MADE money off of TARP, which I believe included funds for the auto bailout. Initially, TARP wasn't to include the auto bailout but there were unused funds and some of that was used for autos.

I believe the U.S. taxpayer was on the hook for a small loss on GM but made nice profits on the other bailouts including Freddie and Fannie [[Mae).

Net was a + for the U.S. Treasury.

For those into fiscal and monetary policy, the Great Recession of 2008 was handled completely differently than the Great Depression and a Great Depression II was avoided. I believe Ben Bernanke was a student of the Great Depression and learned what NOT to do.

Even the stimulus which was controversial to some, was 1/2 tax cuts and I can hardly find anyone who thinks tax cuts are bad especially when designed to put money into folks hands at difficult economic times. Didn't folks on Social Security, etc. get $250 checks. Others got more take home pay from adjusted withholding.

Later wasn't there a reduction of 2% payroll taxes [[normally Social Security payroll taxes) designed to give workers more money to spend.

[Willi]

How is 30 Billion dollars trivial to people ?

A mere 1 billion seconds equals 32 years...
Do people grasp the enormity of the UAW bailout

Every piece of the "success story"
of the auto bailout is twisted media hype.
The bailout was not absolutely necessary
and was pursued by means of dubious legality; the bankruptcies were highly irregular and inefficient; and the companies that have emerged from bankruptcy are still messy.

The USA cannot print money and create debt
anymore than the UAW can hope to raise wages.
Both are detrimental.... to this country

http://www.sigtarp.gov/Quarterly%20R...o_Congress.pdf

The U.S. Treasury’s bailout fund lost $11.2 billion on the rescue of General Motors Co. [[GM) with the government’s exit of the largest U.S. automaker.
The total includes $826 million that the Treasury wrote off in March for its remaining claim in old GM, the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program said in a report to Congress. In December, the government had put the loss at about $10.5 billion on its $49.5 billion investment.

[emu steve]

How is 30 Billion dollars trivial to people ?

A mere 1 billion seconds equals 32 years...
Do people grasp the enormity of the UAW bailout

Every piece of the "success story"
of the auto bailout is twisted media hype.
The bailout was not absolutely necessary
and was pursued by means of dubious legality; the bankruptcies were highly irregular and inefficient; and the companies that have emerged from bankruptcy are still messy.

The USA cannot print money and create debt
anymore than the UAW can hope to raise wages.
Both are detrimental.... to this country

http://www.sigtarp.gov/Quarterly%20R...o_Congress.pdf

The U.S. Treasury’s bailout fund lost $11.2 billion on the rescue of General Motors Co. [[GM) with the government’s exit of the largest U.S. automaker.
The total includes $826 million that the Treasury wrote off in March for its remaining claim in old GM, the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program said in a report to Congress. In December, the government had put the loss at about $10.5 billion on its $49.5 billion investment.

Okay, I was close, guessing around 10B.

I would appreciate if you would research the history of the Great Depression and report on the monetary and fiscal policies taken then and if it exacerbated the situation.

Please do the 'compare and contrast' that most of us learned in school and see if Great Depression II was averted because those who had the levers for monetary policy [[the Fed) and fiscal policy [[President/Congress) did the opposite of what was done when the Depression happened.

The biggest 'casualty' was the debt. The last Bush year [[9/30/2008) the deficit was almost 500B and this was before tax receipts tanked and spending increased significantly in the early parts of FY 2009 [[e.g., 10/1/2008 - ). The budget picture for FY 2009, which was almost 1/3 through when Obama took office was headed for toilet. It took years to get out of the ditch.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Maybe unions time has passed, I don't know, but the reason those workers are making $10.00 per hr, is because the companies they work for aren't union. Why do you think the Republicans in this state pushed so hard for RTW? Bust the unions, then the company can dictate low pay scales and can reprimand and fire employees for mundane indiscretions, and get away with it without protection, while management brings home the bacon. I know unions aren't perfect and maybe they protected some "knuckleheads" that didn't deserve it and should have lost their job. And unions have corruption and misdeeds within their ranks, but so do politics, business and everybody else. But at least for the hard working honorable employee, they had a process in place that made it so the company couldn't screw them over, without answering to them. Not anymore. So Wesley, you can believe any logic of assertion that you want.

[Hermod]

One group of UAW employees who were really screwed were the GM and Chrysler supplier employees. All of those smaller plants in southern Oakland and Macomb counties that sit empty today once were the places of employment for 10-100 UAW members each. The suppliers had been extending credit and shipping components to GM and Chrysler during their troubled years. The money they were owed was wiped out in the bankruptcy proceedings and many of them went to the wall.

[Willi]

Time for rebirth, renewal, new industry.
Putting all the eggs in the same basket
from 50 years ago is getting stupid.

The Detroit area has numerous well educated, innovative, creative people, and real estate property for new endeavors abounds.

I hope Metro Detroit becomes something more than a "" give-me-a-handout"" via taxpayer charity ; pitiful, sorrowful, whining mess.

It is 2015 in a few days.
Detroit has new opportunities, with new industries

[313WX]

I hope Metro Detroit becomes something more than a...pitiful, sorrowful, whining mess.

Well, good luck with that...

Wishing for the downfall of the region's only major industry [[unless you include the government and health care system it subsidizes) certainly won't get Metro Detroit anywhere else other than a "pitiful, sorrowful, whining mess."

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Time for rebirth, renewal, new industry.
Putting all the eggs in the same basket
from 50 years ago is getting stupid.

The Detroit area has numerous well educated, innovative, creative people, and real estate property for new endeavors abounds.

I hope Metro Detroit becomes something more than a "" give-me-a-handout"" via taxpayer charity ; pitiful, sorrowful, whining mess.

It is 2015 in a few days.
Detroit has new opportunities, with new industries

Wishful thinking if you think Detroit is going to totally abandon the auto industry, and switch over to a services type of economy. They might add a few of those industries, but autos are where their bread is buttered. Think of something else to whine about, because it's not happening. You don't like what's going on here, you're free to leave.

[Willi]

Facts are different than wishes.
The cold hard truth has to be dealt with.
The Detroit area must diversify or die.

[Willi]

It is foolish to think it will last forever.
Taxpayers can't continue to subsidize/bailout .

It won't happen overnight, but progress steamrolls
anything in its path, without sympathy

I am also so free to stay and state facts reported
in hundreds of well known publications,
read by many in the 50 states and worldwide

Detroit local media is certainly tainted,
biased, and far from neutral or objective