Wayne County thinking of continuing downtown jail. Gilbert writes another letter.

[brizee]

http://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/...suit-dismissal

http://www.freep.com/article/2014091...t-Quicken-jail

Eh...

I'm generally in favor of moving that shit out. Let downtown turn into something productive. And maybe that area of Mound might see some development.

On the other it would be almost twice as costly and the state is being no help.

My sister is a defense attorney. She is most definitely against moving the courts out of downtown.

[Bham1982]

The jail should be downtown, next to the courts. In what other city is the jail sitting off in the middle of nowhere?

Contrary to Glibert's claims, there are no negative effects from a jail. It just means the area is super well-patrolled, and has lots of decent jobs.

The issue isn't the jail location, it's the outrageous malfeasance by the Wayne County crooks.

[nain rouge]

Yeah, but putting the jail directly downtown is a bit much. Most healthier cities generally prefer to put the jail a bit outside of the CBD. Flint and Detroit are the only two cities I've been to where the jail is practically a central component of downtown. It's not a good look. Even Pontiac/Oakland County wasn't dumb enough to put the county jail directly in the CBD.

[Bham1982]

Flint and Detroit are the only two cities I've been to where the jail is practically a central component of downtown.

How about NYC, LA, Chicago? All these cities have jails right in the middle of downtown.

It's not a good look. Even Pontiac/Oakland County wasn't dumb enough to put the county jail directly in the CBD.

I would argue that Pontiac would have been MUCH better off if the various county functions, including jail, would be right downtown.

[animatedmartian]

How about NYC, LA, Chicago? All these cities have jails right in the middle of downtown.

But are they an ugly un-urban mass?

[Bham1982]

But are they an ugly un-urban mass?

Well that's a separate issue.

I never said that I supported the jail plans, just that there isn't something inherently bad about having a jail in a city center.

For all the claimed benefits about a potential new hockey arena, I bet you a county jail would do more for downtown on a day-to-day basis. You would have hundreds of employees there 24/7, and they would need restaurants and services. You would also have a constant stream of visitors. An arena will just be an empty tomb 95% of the time.

But no one in charge of things downtown knows a thing about building cities.

[JBMcB]

How about NYC, LA, Chicago? All these cities have jails right in the middle of downtown.

I don't know about LA or Chicago, but the Tombs is a relatively small facility, similar to the current Wayne County jailhouse, used for temporary detention before prisoners are transferred to Rikers, which is pretty far from downtown.

[Scottathew]

Contrary to Glibert's claims, there are no negative effects from a jail. It just means the area is super well-patrolled, and has lots of decent jobs.

The issue isn't the jail location, it's the outrageous malfeasance by the Wayne County crooks.

There is a negative effect, it breaks up the usable space downtown.

Gilbert has a large conflict off interest though, as he wants to connect Greektown with the rest of his empire. However, some folks would point out that if Gilbert succeeds in creating a contiguous CBD, that everyone wins, not just Gilbert.

[ABetterDetroit]

The jail should be downtown, next to the courts. In what other city is the jail sitting off in the middle of nowhere?

Contrary to Glibert's claims, there are no negative effects from a jail. It just means the area is super well-patrolled, and has lots of decent jobs.

The issue isn't the jail location, it's the outrageous malfeasance by the Wayne County crooks.

The guy who vehemently argues against professional sports venues downtown in post after post infinity, now says that large brand new jail complexes are a good idea within a 9 iron shot of them. Why not just say "I want everything in Detroit to fail forever" and be done with it and save himself a lot of time?

[Hypestyles]

What does Mr. Gilbert want to turn the jail site into? Maybe he can convince his prominent business friends to put up money to help steer the jail to one of the alternative sites. Even if the jail is finished, won't there still be overcrowding issues?

[Shai_Hulud]

What does Mr. Gilbert want to turn the jail site into? Maybe he can convince his prominent business friends to put up money to help steer the jail to one of the alternative sites. Even if the jail is finished, won't there still be overcrowding issues?

The plan was to turn the three existing jails and Frank Murphy into housing and build some sort of entertainment facility on the fail jail site.

[animatedmartian]

People don't exactly consider jails a gathering spot to hang out with friends [[unless those friends are in the wrong places).

[jackie5275]

People don't exactly consider jails a gathering spot to hang out with friends [[unless those friends are in the wrong places).

True, but there is a lot of gathering there by visitors to the jails & courts and folks on jury duty, attorneys to the courts, etc. It does generate a lot of activity in the area, even if it is a "forced" gathering.

[Honky Tonk]

True, but there is a lot of gathering there by visitors to the jails & courts and folks on jury duty, attorneys to the courts, etc. It does generate a lot of activity in the area, even if it is a "forced" gathering.

Maybe they could add a fancy, high-end coffee shop to the lobby of the jail with some kind of catch line? Something like "Our beans are locked up for 30-90 days, before they are ground, and their flavor released".

[animatedmartian]

True, but there is a lot of gathering there by visitors to the jails & courts and folks on jury duty, attorneys to the courts, etc. It does generate a lot of activity in the area, even if it is a "forced" gathering.

It sort of makes me think of how Wall Street is [[the literal street). You mostly just see guys in business suits scurrying across the street in and out of buildings. And really that could be any financial district in America, but the thing is, financial districts [[and often government districts) have no draw for anyone else to be there other than the people who work there. In that case, what would make a downtown different than a suburban office park?

But I do understand the point in your other post about the fail jail being in an area that was already established as an area for the criminal justice system and it makes sense to have the facilities centralized downtown. Though the way Wayne County has handled it is absolutely abysmal and I think a more competent organization would have done a completely better job on the whole process.

[Mackinaw]

I am completely against proceeding with the jail, and also think the state should assist the financing of expansion at Mound Rd. That said, I think a deal needs to be worked out to scale down Gilbert's plan a bit. I see no justification for removing Murphy Hall of Justice. Tear-down would be wasteful, and its continuing existence really shouldn't get in the way of better uses on the fail jail site, and a renovation of former Police HQ. Moreover, defendant transport from an outer jail to a downtown court should be no big deal. Hell, NYC transports people to and from an island on its fringes.

In short, stop the jail, but spare Frank Murphy. P.s., courts aren't the worst land use-- the large volume of employees, jurors, and attorneys constitutes a lot of foot traffic and restaurant demand during the day, and if they have night court, they even add a little something at night.

[nain rouge]

Bham, of all those cities you listed, I believe Manhattan is the only one where I'd truly say that the jail is in the thick of downtown. In LA, the jail is by the rail yards. In Chicago, it's in an industrial section of the city. In a city with as much empty space as Detroit, it doesn't make sense to build the jail that close to the commercial center. Somewhere on the near east side just seems better.

[Bham1982]

Bham, of all those cities you listed, I believe Manhattan is the only one where I'd truly say that the jail is in the thick of downtown. In LA, the jail is by the rail yards. In Chicago, it's in an industrial section of the city. In a city with as much empty space as Detroit, it doesn't make sense to build the jail that close to the commercial center. Somewhere on the near east side just seems better.

Not true. Chicago has a jail complex right in the very heart of the Loop. LA has a jail complex right downtown. Brooklyn has a jail right downtown. So does Philly. So does Boston.

I am confused why people think a jail is a negative use, and then think a sports stadium is a positive use. It's a completely misguided understanding of how city centers work.

[Spartan]

Not true. Chicago has a jail complex right in the very heart of the Loop. LA has a jail complex right downtown. Brooklyn has a jail right downtown. So does Philly. So does Boston.

I am confused why people think a jail is a negative use, and then think a sports stadium is a positive use. It's a completely misguided understanding of how city centers work.

I don't mind the jail being downtown, but I do kind of wish it wasn't fronting Gratiot. I think it would also be a very bad thing if the removal of 375 were to happen. A jail should not be the first thing people see as they come into the city [[especially one with crime issues). For now, while it's not the best location, it's not the worst either. Definitely not a fan of the hundreds of millions over budget thing though.

[Bham1982]

Moreover, defendant transport from an outer jail to a downtown court should be no big deal. Hell, NYC transports people to and from an island on its fringes.

No, they don't. NYC has jails connected to its criminal courthouses.If you're arrested in Manhattan, you are jailed in the same complex where you are arraigned and tried.

You're referring to Rikers Island, which is for longer stays in the justice system.

[401don]

I would love for someone to explain what all of these new entertainment venues in the arena district and jail site will be. We already have theaters, 3 stadiums, 3 casinos, an opera house, etc. Exactly how many more restaurant/bars pushing the same menu of burger, wings and pulled pork are needed, most of which are empty on non-game nights. There is still far too few residents to support additional restaurants, etc. in the next few years.

[Lowell]

I would love for someone to explain what all of these new entertainment venues in the arena district and jail site will be. We already have theaters, 3 stadiums, 3 casinos, an opera house, etc. Exactly how many more restaurant/bars pushing the same menu of burger, wings and pulled pork are needed, most of which are empty on non-game nights. There is still far too few residents to support additional restaurants, etc. in the next few years.

That question was being asked 15 years ago when downtown was emerging from the tumbleweed ages of the post-Hudson's-closing ghost town.

Downtown is a metro, indeed international metro, destination. So the 'too few residents' is not that important of a factor [and though those numbers are growing]. 4-5 million visitors a year come for the professional sporting events alone. More venues will attract more visitors. Why? Because the will all be actively marketing themselves. It's a symbiotic effect.

Whether or not a bubble will grow and pop remains to be seen but for now it is up and up. Even if there is a retreat, the corner has been turned.

[jt1]

Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.

[bailey]

Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.

THIS. They are a hole into which tax money is thrown...or in the case of the fail jail, outright stolen. Get it on the tax rolls.

[Steve203]

Another issue not being addressed is taxes: The county/court complex pay a total of $0 in taxes. Moving these to an area with exceptionally low value and putting something else in will add to the city's tax base.

If Gilbert got his hands on that land, probably the first thing he would do is demand a tax abatement for "jobs created", which may or may not replace the jobs moved out to Mound, so no net gain for the city.