Example of Rapid Bus Transit

[ghettopalmetto]

2. Number of stations: Once you leave, say, Braddock Road, there are only 10 stops to Crystal City. Twenty-two is counting both endpoints, and counting each intermediate station twice [[since there are separate shelters on each side of the busway). Ten stops in 3.3 miles is typical BRT, on the slightly-heavy side. Average would be eight.

Well, let's not jump the gun just yet. There aren't that many bus rapid transit routes in the United States. In fact, there are exactly *none* that match the operating speeds of a light rail line. The sample size is very, very small. So it's a stretch to use terms like "typical".

The existing subway line takes 7 minutes to go from Braddock Road Station to Crystal City. This bus route will eat a good 10 minutes just making the scheduled stops, and not including any travel time. So I'd go pretty easy with the term "rapid transit" at this point. WMATA's published schedule has the Metroway bus taking 19 minutes to travel between Braddock Road and Crystal City Stations--a whopping 10.4 miles per hour operating speed! So again, where's the "rapid transit" component?

By comparison, the DDOT 53 bus on Woodward Avenue has an operating speed of 14.3 miles per hour--nearly 40% faster than this "rapid transit" hoo-hah.

Detroiters deserve to know what their elected leaders and transportation professionals are selling them. So why do you hide this information, professorscott?

[Wesley Mouch]

Well, let's not jump the gun just yet. There aren't that many bus rapid transit routes in the United States. In fact, there are exactly *none* that match the operating speeds of a light rail line. The sample size is very, very small. So it's a stretch to use terms like "typical".

The existing subway line takes 7 minutes to go from Braddock Road Station to Crystal City. This bus route will eat a good 10 minutes just making the scheduled stops, and not including any travel time. So I'd go pretty easy with the term "rapid transit" at this point. WMATA's published schedule has the Metroway bus taking 19 minutes to travel between Braddock Road and Crystal City Stations--a whopping 10.4 miles per hour operating speed! So again, where's the "rapid transit" component?

By comparison, the DDOT 53 bus on Woodward Avenue has an operating speed of 14.3 miles per hour--nearly 40% faster than this "rapid transit" hoo-hah.

Detroiters deserve to know what their elected leaders and transportation professionals are selling them. So why do you hide this information, professorscott?

Is it possible the 53 beats the DC BRT because Woodward runs through a ghost town with very little traffic? Its also very helpful that Woodward is a pretty wide street north of GBlvd, and an absurdly wide street closer to downtown.

Its OK to hate BRT. But unrealistic to bend the facts to speed your dream of a wonderous world of subways under your feet.

I'll take something just a bit better now please. Leave perfection for the future.

[ghettopalmetto]

Is it possible the 53 beats the DC BRT because Woodward runs through a ghost town with very little traffic? Its also very helpful that Woodward is a pretty wide street north of GBlvd, and an absurdly wide street closer to downtown.

Sure. I'm presuming that's exactly the reason. But it's also unrealistic to expect the Woodward bus to suddenly double its operating speed just because passengers pay their fare prior to boarding. For what it's worth, the ballyhooed HealthLine in Cleveland has an operating speed somewhere between 12-13 miles per hour. That's WITH fare prepayment, and WITH dedicated right-of-way. Yes, you read that correctly: America's Sexiest Sexybus Route is SLOWER than the existing Woodward 53.

The difference here is that the WMATA bus route is a secondary transit route, that operates over a short haul with limited purpose. It's not expected to be the "high-end" component of a vast and expensive regional network like it would be in Detroit. You might as well say that the Disney World Monorail is an acceptable mode for a regional transit system in Detroit.

I'll take something just a bit better now please. Leave perfection for the future.

Maybe you misunderstand me. This is what I'm saying:

1. The types of improvements over which people here are salivating can be implemented now. Fare prepayment can be instituted. Buses can be placed in their own lanes. Traffic signal pre-emption can be implemented. There is absolutely NO REASON why the region needs to wait a couple more decades to make what are essentially very simple service improvements. There is even less reason to mislead the public and call it "rapid transit", when it is clearly not.

2. There is no "perfection for the future". There is no precedent for converting a BRT route to light rail. Yes, BRT proponents always cite this, to stave off the advocates who desire a *real* rapid transit system. But it just doesn't happen in practice. So once Detroit gets Sexybus, you're stuck with it. Forever. No matter how terrific or how shitty it is. And if the first BRT route in Detroit is, in fact, shitty [[as empirical evidence indicates it will be), Detroit won't have a snowball's chance in hell of seeing any future transit improvements.

[DetroitPlanner]

Sure. I'm presuming that's exactly the reason. But it's also unrealistic to expect the Woodward bus to suddenly double its operating speed just because passengers pay their fare prior to boarding. For what it's worth, the ballyhooed HealthLine in Cleveland has an operating speed somewhere between 12-13 miles per hour. That's WITH fare prepayment, and WITH dedicated right-of-way. Yes, you read that correctly: America's Sexiest Sexybus Route is SLOWER than the existing Woodward 53.

You really need to get to Cleveland and look at the line yourself. You are all wet. Not every station is pre-pay. It has no dedicated ROW it is on Euclid for petes sake. I also question your timing; how fast do you think buses go in busy areas? 40 mph? With lights at every block?

[ghettopalmetto]

You really need to get to Cleveland and look at the line yourself. You are all wet. Not every station is pre-pay. It has no dedicated ROW it is on Euclid for petes sake. I also question your timing; how fast do you think buses go in busy areas? 40 mph? With lights at every block?

I live in Cleveland, thanks, and I guarantee that I ride RTA [[and even drive on Euclid Avenue) a hell of a lot more often than you do. Appreciate the condescension, though.

Maybe you'd like to do some fact-checking before you profess wisdom? Hell--come visit. We'll ride the HealthLine from Public Square to University Circle, and I'll even buy you lunch in Little Italy.

And for the record, no, I *know* that buses don't travel at 40 miles per hour in busy areas. Which is why they can *never* be seriously considered as "rapid transit". If the speed limit is 35 mph, you'll never reach average operating speeds of 30 mph [[or even half of that). That's just math.

[DetroitPlanner]

Maybe you'd like to do some fact-checking before you profess wisdom? Hell--come visit. We'll ride the HealthLine from Public Square to University Circle, and I'll even buy you lunch in Little Italy.

I visited and stayed at the Residence Inn for several days to observe its operation [[yeah it was on my dime, what can I say I am nutty like that). Rode it, drove the route, observed all of the economic activity that is going on due to it. I drank the Kool Aid and it was good! You must have forgot to put sugar in yours, why is it so bitter to you?
http://urbanland.uli.org/economy-mar...-in-cleveland/

What you fail to understand is that this is as much of an economic development project as it is a transportation one. All of your metrics don't take into account what this is doing for the cost of operating Cleveland Clinic or making the area more attractive to business.

[Wesley Mouch]

Stepping back from GP's war on BRT...

I like hearing these stories and getting some perspective. BRT isn't a replacement for Light Rail, but it does appear to provide a level of service between B & LR.

More transit options can only help increase transit availability. GP seems worried that BRT will replace LR in planning. Some places that's true, but where you have the volume for LR -- and the funding -- LR makes the most sense.

I think the bigger debate needs to be on frequency. I've stood on NYC platforms for 45 minutes. Stood on St. Louis LR stations for 30 min. And San Diego for 40 min. No fun. Frequency is at least as important as speed. Because your real commute time is wait plus trip -- not just trip. A jet plane is fast, but if you have to wait 6 hours to catch it, and spend 2 hours in line at security, you'd be better off on bus to Chicago.

[ghettopalmetto]

I visited and stayed at the Residence Inn for several days to observe its operation [[yeah it was on my dime, what can I say I am nutty like that). Rode it, drove the route, observed all of the economic activity that is going on due to it. I drank the Kool Aid and it was good! You must have forgot to put sugar in yours, why is it so bitter to you?
http://urbanland.uli.org/economy-mar...-in-cleveland/

What you fail to understand is that this is as much of an economic development project as it is a transportation one. All of your metrics don't take into account what this is doing for the cost of operating Cleveland Clinic or making the area more attractive to business.

You must have stopped at E66th Street then, and noticed all the empty fields across the street from Gallucci's market. Because, you know, magic bus = development.

The Cleveland Clinic has been expanding for decades. Cleveland State University was expanding before the bus project obtained funding. The residential population on the downtown stretch of Euclid was expanding when the Euclid Corridor was still on the drawing board as a light rail line. So it's completely disingenuous and dishonest to claim that the HealthLine resulted in a single nickel of economic development.

[Patrick]

Well, let's not jump the gun just yet. There aren't that many bus rapid transit routes in the United States. In fact, there are exactly *none* that match the operating speeds of a light rail line. The sample size is very, very small. So it's a stretch to use terms like "typical".

The existing subway line takes 7 minutes to go from Braddock Road Station to Crystal City. This bus route will eat a good 10 minutes just making the scheduled stops, and not including any travel time. So I'd go pretty easy with the term "rapid transit" at this point. WMATA's published schedule has the Metroway bus taking 19 minutes to travel between Braddock Road and Crystal City Stations--a whopping 10.4 miles per hour operating speed! So again, where's the "rapid transit" component?

By comparison, the DDOT 53 bus on Woodward Avenue has an operating speed of 14.3 miles per hour--nearly 40% faster than this "rapid transit" hoo-hah.

Detroiters deserve to know what their elected leaders and transportation professionals are selling them. So why do you hide this information, professorscott?

Depends on the day. I ride it daily from Braddock to Rosslyn and lately, the timing has been all over the place. I think it has a lot to do with the addition of the Silver line and working out all its kinks. The longest stretch between any of the stops from Braddock to say, Foggy Bottom is between Braddock and DCA. I can't see a lot of people using bus down Jefferson Davis, accept maybe to use the shopping center at Potomoc Yards. Keep an eye out for developments on Columbia Pike wit that whole streetcar plan.