Testimony: McBride pounded on homeowner's door before being fatally shot

**Zacha341** · August-01-14, 06:04 AM

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26...g-fatally-shot

From article:

DETROIT [[AP) -- A former medical examiner sparred with a prosecutor Thursday over a wound on the hand of a woman who was fatally shot on a Detroit-area porch, telling jurors it seems to fit the defense's claim that Renisha McBride was pounding on the homeowner's doors before she was killed.

Dr. Werner Spitz, a forensic pathologist, said photos of McBride's body show a "small superficial laceration" on her left hand. It "could have come from pounding on something," Spitz said.

The testimony was intended to reinforce Theodore Wafer's explanation that McBride, 19, was pounding furiously on his doors before he shot her last Nov. 2. Wafer insists he acted in self-defense, but prosecutors say he could have kept the front door closed and called police.

**jackie5275** · August-01-14, 01:42 PM

Could it also be argued that she got it from the car accident from earlier in the night?

**aoife** · August-01-14, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

Could it also be argued that she got it from the car accident from earlier in the night?

Further down in the article they say that the blood was fresh, so it was not from the accident.

""... I'm told somebody at 4:30 in the morning pounded at [[Wafer's) door in various places -- on the window, on the door, on another door around the house," Spitz said. "And that same person now has a superficial laceration on the hand, a runoff of fresh blood, which means it probably just happened.""

Not that it matters. Even if a drunk stranger is pounding on your doors and windows you still should call the police, not blow them away.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · August-01-14, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by aoife

Further down in the article they say that the blood was fresh, so it was not from the accident.

""... I'm told somebody at 4:30 in the morning pounded at [[Wafer's) door in various places -- on the window, on the door, on another door around the house," Spitz said. "And that same person now has a superficial laceration on the hand, a runoff of fresh blood, which means it probably just happened.""

Not that it matters. Even if a drunk stranger is pounding on your doors and windows you still should call the police, not blow them away.

Exactly. Guilty as charged. If he gets off, it would be a travesty.

**Zacha341** · August-01-14, 06:01 PM

Yep. It's best to FIRST call 911 rather the police will be coming in 3 minutes or 3 hours. Give the 911 operator your name and address, then if the person 'breaks in' and lethal force is the only option, there's a documented pre-call on record. Further, Dearborn police response is fast. They would have been there within 10 minutes if not sooner.

Originally Posted by aoife

Not that it matters. Even if a drunk stranger is pounding on your doors and windows you still should call the police, not blow them away.

**Honky Tonk** · August-01-14, 04:53 PM

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but did she have a phone?

**EastsideAl** · August-01-14, 05:33 PM

None of these issues seem germane to the central question here: is a person banging on someone's door "immediately life threatening" enough to permit someone to shoot and kill that person?

**Honky Tonk** · August-01-14, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

None of these issues seem germane to the central question here: is a person banging on someone's door "immediately life threatening" enough to permit someone to shoot and kill that person?

I'm not getting enough information from the article or the emotional posts to make that determination. If you're talking about "banging on someone's door", like the JWs on a Saturday morning , then of course not. If you're talking about "banging on someone's door", @ 2:30 a.m., with maybe some glass breaking, like" one more minute, and I'm coming in", then maybe yes. And, yes, it is germane to the question, why didn't she call someone she knew for help?

**EastsideAl** · August-01-14, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

And, yes, it is germane to the question, why didn't she call someone she knew for help?

Yes, but again I'm not really seeing why that question is all that germane. It seems to me the question is not so much 'why didn't you call someone before you started knocking?' as it is 'why didn't you call someone before you started shooting?'

**7miledog** · August-03-14, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

None of these issues seem germane to the central question here: is a person banging on someone's door "immediately life threatening" enough to permit someone to shoot and kill that person?

Actually, the germane question is whether someone banging on your front door, back door, and windows at 4:30 am is enough to cause you to reasonably believe that you are in danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury. I could argue either way on this, especially if the screen was, in fact, pounded in [[thereby, vastly increasing the likelihood that someone is attempting to enter your home by force). I'm sorry, if it sounds like someone is breaking in my home at 4:30 in the morning, I am going to treat them as if they are breaking in my home. None of us were there. Let the jury decide. It is a travesty all the way around, no matter the outcome of this trial.

**EastsideAl** · August-03-14, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by 7miledog

Actually, the germane question is whether someone banging on your front door, back door, and windows at 4:30 am is enough to cause you to reasonably believe that you are in danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury. I could argue either way on this, especially if the screen was, in fact, pounded in [[thereby, vastly increasing the likelihood that someone is attempting to enter your home by force). I'm sorry, if it sounds like someone is breaking in my home at 4:30 in the morning, I am going to treat them as if they are breaking in my home. None of us were there. Let the jury decide. It is a travesty all the way around, no matter the outcome of this trial.

Or you could call the cops.

Or, once you opened the door armed and found an unarmed woman, you could let her explain herself or tell her to leave rather than blasting a shotgun at her.

OR YOU COULD CALL THE COPS.

It still seems to me that all of the talk of her [[ultimately unknowable now) possible state of mind or her actions that night still have almost no bearing on the plain fact that this guy acted as judge, jury, and executioner on an unarmed woman who was banging on his door a bit too hard for his comfort.

And all this talk of home invasions is way way out of line, since there was no evidence at all that she was involved in such a thing [[other than, I presume from what I see written here, her "scary" negroness).

**Honky Tonk** · August-03-14, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Or you could call the cops.

Or, once you opened the door armed and found an unarmed woman, you could let her explain herself or tell her to leave rather than blasting a shotgun at her.

OR YOU COULD CALL THE COPS.

It still seems to me that all of the talk of her [[ultimately unknowable now) possible state of mind or her actions that night still have almost no bearing on the plain fact that this guy acted as judge, jury, and executioner on an unarmed woman who was banging on his door a bit too hard for his comfort.

And all this talk of home invasions is way way out of line, since there was no evidence at all that she was involved in such a thing [[other than, I presume from what I see written here, her "scary" negroness).

Let's see, someone violently pounding on your door @ 4:30 a.m., in several spots around the house, it seem now, "I think I'll call the police, and make a pot of tea". Nor was she a girl scout who just happened to wander onto the guy's porch, in broad daylight, selling cookies.

**canuck** · August-03-14, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Let's see, someone violently pounding on your door @ 4:30 a.m., in several spots around the house, it seem now, "I think I'll call the police, and make a pot of tea". Nor was she a girl scout who just happened to wander onto the guy's porch, in broad daylight, selling cookies.

But isn't the best response the avoidance of conflict?

Isn't death by shotgun blast a little too final an outcome here. EastsideAl said it best when he characterized the guy as judge, jury and executioner. His marbles had better be in order for his court appearance because he has a lot to answer for. Call the police I say. Don't come out and blast someone with a shotgun because they are scaring you.

**Wesley Mouch** · August-03-14, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Or you could call the cops.

Or, once you opened the door armed and found an unarmed woman, you could let her explain herself or tell her to leave rather than blasting a shotgun at her.

OR YOU COULD CALL THE COPS.

It still seems to me that all of the talk of her [[ultimately unknowable now) possible state of mind or her actions that night still have almost no bearing on the plain fact that this guy acted as judge, jury, and executioner on an unarmed woman who was banging on his door a bit too hard for his comfort.

And all this talk of home invasions is way way out of line, since there was no evidence at all that she was involved in such a thing [[other than, I presume from what I see written here, her "scary" negroness).

Isn't it a little cold and callous to call the cops when someone is in distress.

Now, looking back, its easy to know what to do. You may be perfect, but I'm not. And neither of our two star-crossed fools that night were. Mistakes were made by all involved. Nobody did the right thing.

But at 4:30am when awakened, I don't think grabbing your gun first is unreasonable. Is it perfect, knowing what we do now? No. But its reasonable.

**iheartthed** · August-03-14, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by 7miledog

Actually, the germane question is whether someone banging on your front door, back door, and windows at 4:30 am is enough to cause you to reasonably believe that you are in danger of loss of life or grave bodily injury.

If that's the question then he's fucked.

**Downriviera** · August-01-14, 06:29 PM

The guy is sound asleep in the middle of the night. All the sudden he's awoken by pounding on front and side doors and windows. He's half asleep and disoriented. He has no land line and can't find his cell phone in the darkness. To him it sounds like multiple people are trying to get in and he fears for his life. If he's been watching the news here for the last few years he has seen all the home invasions where homeowners get killed. But the law says you have to wait till they are in your house. So he has to do some time but this poor guy is no murderer. Tough situation and glad I'm not on this jury.

**Zacha341** · August-01-14, 06:54 PM

Darkness can be an issue. I keep a small lamp on a timer in the main area and mobile or my land phone handy. For certain I would have NOT opened the door, pointing a shot gun which 'leads' [[even a short stock barrel as he dad) to have it snatched from me.

**Kevgoblue** · August-01-14, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

The guy is sound asleep in the middle of the night. All the sudden he's awoken by pounding on front and side doors and windows. He's half asleep and disoriented. He has no land line and can't find his cell phone in the darkness. To him it sounds like multiple people are trying to get in and he fears for his life. If he's been watching the news here for the last few years he has seen all the home invasions where homeowners get killed. But the law says you have to wait till they are in your house. So he has to do some time but this poor guy is no murderer. Tough situation and glad I'm not on this jury.

"this poor guy is no murder"

Really? I thought I remember something about an unarmed 19 year old girl laying dead on his front porch, with a gunshot wound to the face. Why would someone who was in fear for their life open the front door?
I find it amazing that there are so many people making excuses for this man. She was not multiple people. She was not a man. He did not live in Detroit. The Dearborn Heights police respond very quickly. Nothing to make a responsible gun owner feel the need to discharge his weapon.

**antongast** · August-01-14, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

The guy is sound asleep in the middle of the night. All the sudden he's awoken by pounding on front and side doors and windows. He's half asleep and disoriented. He has no land line and can't find his cell phone in the darkness. To him it sounds like multiple people are trying to get in and he fears for his life. If he's been watching the news here for the last few years he has seen all the home invasions where homeowners get killed. But the law says you have to wait till they are in your house. So he has to do some time but this poor guy is no murderer. Tough situation and glad I'm not on this jury.

This post reads to me like quite a convincing argument for prohibiting people from keeping guns in their houses. If being tired and disoriented is all it takes to turn a Responsible Gun Owner into a homicidal menace, then it doesn't really sound to me like there's any meaningful distinction between Responsible Gun Owners and the other kind of gun owners who are really fucking dangerous and scary. I'm just saying.

**brizee** · August-01-14, 10:44 PM

Another negro done gone and gun murdered themselves.

At least they keep getting put on trial for their own deaths.

**EastsideAl** · August-01-14, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

Another negro done gone and gun murdered themselves.

At least they keep getting put on trial for their own deaths.

The victim-blaming around this area is amazing. As well as the seemingly bottomless excuse making for the guy who shot and killed an unarmed woman.

**Downriviera** · August-02-14, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by antongast

This post reads to me like quite a convincing argument for prohibiting people from keeping guns in their houses. If being tired and disoriented is all it takes to turn a Responsible Gun Owner into a homicidal menace, then it doesn't really sound to me like there's any meaningful distinction between Responsible Gun Owners and the other kind of gun owners who are really fucking dangerous and scary. I'm just saying.

You're calling this guy a homicidal menace? What about all the homeowners that have killed intruders and home invaders lately. Are they homicidal menaces too? And you want to take guns away from homeowners? Way too many criminals with guns to do that. 40 years ago she would have banged on the house and someone would have come out and helped her. Sadly, we do not live in those times anymore.

**EastsideAl** · August-02-14, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

40 years ago she would have banged on the house and someone would have come out and helped her. Sadly, we do not live in those times anymore.

What Detroit did you live in 40 years ago? 40 years ago she would have been just another dead n----r who "shouldn't have been" where she was. The suburban police department would have reported that she was trying to break in and was shot in self-defense, and that would have been that. In that sense, at least, there has been some progress.

**Zacha341** · August-02-14, 10:00 PM

Hah! Good comment EA. For sure this could have been the world view and outcome in Dearborn circa 1974!!

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

What Detroit did you live in 40 years ago? 40 years ago she would have been just another dead n----r who "shouldn't have been" where she was. The suburban police department would have reported that she was trying to break in and was shot in self-defense, and that would have been that. In that sense, at least, there has been some progress.

**Downriviera** · August-01-14, 07:39 PM

Why would someone who was in fear for their life open the front door?

Makes no sense to me either. but when you're half asleep, disoriented and in fear you might tend to do things that don't make sense. This guy wasn't out looking for 19 year old girls to kill. He was home asleep. He did not know it was an unarmed 19 year old girl. He did not know it was only one person. Dearborn Heights is not Detroit but still plenty of crime there. Yes the DH Police respond quickly when you call them, but he couldn't find his cell phone in the dark so the police were not coming. No excuses just observations about the guys state of mind in this situation. Like I said, by law he did wrong and will do time. Sad incident all the way around.