Ilitchville vs. Gilbertville [[Freep)

[mwilbert]

Federal spending/employment is BOOMING.

No it isn't. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2.../CES9091000001

With regard to your suburb living comment: most of the people working in D.C. live in the burbs. Most people can't afford D.C. proper and or move out of D.C. proper in their mid to late 20s. Suburban living is still king.

People living in the suburbs because they can't afford the city doesn't really say "Suburban living is still king." to me.

[emu steve]

I think it is a lot easier to revitalize a city in the middle of a growing metropolitan area than it is to do it in the middle of a stagnant area.

Absolutely!!

The problem is bigger than Detroit.

[Honky Tonk]

Have you not seen the development that Illitch and Gilbert done to the Downtown Detroit. Rothschild were right about their financial philosophy. When folks in Detroit spill blood turning their neighborhoods to welfare ghetto villages, THEY came in to buy Detroit.

How's your neighbor-hood doing Danny, thriving? Are your tax dollars being spent on revitalizing YOUR neighbor_hood? Or is it SSDD?

[rex]

Its a good binary relationship. Illich brings the entertainment. Gilbert brings the jobs and livability

[kgpaints]

The article was a yawn, so I've trussed up the pic a bit:

[unclefrank]

DC has the largest growth industry in the US. Government.

[canuck]

In a sense, Gilbert's best assets are the many real estate specialists he has at his disposal, both in house and others. He has spurred interest in commercial real estate, moved some of his co. HQ's and ably managed to do this in multiple layers. Detroit is fortunate that this player was a major broker that understood the complexity of rebuilding not only the core's real estate but interest in propping it up in a lasting way. The backroom deals are perhaps unsavory, but remember that he could take his biz to a hundred markets, more or less "healthier" than da D and gotten extra benefits from city administrations since that is the way the billionaires get their way. You're fucked if you go along and same if you don't.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip.... You're fucked if you go along and same if you don't.

There's an underlying sense in a lot of how we approach business vs. residents that if you give money to residents -- then you take it away from neighborhood and citizens.

I don't believe that cities are static. They change. They shrink. They grow. If they grow economically, the residents will benefit.

If we look at government as a dispenser of a fixed pot of money, then you're right. But its not. And it shouldn't be. We've fallen into the trap of thinking that government's function is to create jobs. It is not. It should be to help business create jobs. Provide Elizabeth Warren's infrastructure to make companies succeed. She's wrong when she thinking companies should pay for infrastructure. No. Government pays for infrastructure for people and corporations to use to create wealth for us all. Not to dole it out. But to create it.

Like or dislike I or G. Like or dislike what they've done. And where they've sucked off the public tit. But there are tits all over begging to be sucked. They are just playing the game. And we must just play the game.

Opting out of the game is actually the biggest 'f--king' we can get. And that's what Detroit has chosen to do. Opt out of building a workable city. And tried to opt-in on living on the kindness of strangers -- like the State, Feds, grants, etc.

[emu steve]

Not the role of Ilitch and Gilbert, but now celebrities are getting on board...

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...oward-recovery

[Junjie]

Federal spending/employment is BOOMING. The Metro was built. D.C. is on the coast. D.C. is warm climate. GWU, Georgetown, American, Catholic, Howard within city limits. GDP is 2.5x Detroit's.

As explained above, federal employment is not booming and increased spending doesn't coincide with the turnaround in DC. Moreover, the collapse of DC in the 1950s/1960s coincided with an enormous increase in the size of the federal government. Clearly federal spending has helped the DC region in a major way since 9/11. But the growth of defense contractors in suburban VA office towers doesn't explain why the city of Washington itself was able to arrest its population decline and begin growing again while converting large swathes of burned out or impoverished neighborhoods into valuable, attractive real estate.

Yes, the Metro was built. That was intentional, not ordained by fate. Maybe instead of dully wondering why DC is so lucky and Detroit is so cursed and using the difference to avoid comparisons, the region should get off its ass and build some decent transit the way DC did.

DC is on the coast [[or at least sort of near other East Coast cities), Detroit is the busiest international crossing with our largest trade partner. Every city has its geographical advantages. I doubt this goes very far to explain why DC is growing and Detroit is not.

Sure, DC is warmer than Detroit but this is hardly a big factor. Summer in DC is hell. Winter's cold [[30-45) and wet and even gets snow a couple times. Maybe it's better than MI depending on your preference for heat vs. cold but SoCal it ain't.

Wayne State and Detroit Mercy together are as big as Georgetown and GWU combined. I don't think the additional presence of American U, Catholic, and Howard explains much about the major differences between Washington and Detroit. Put together, those three add another WSU sized student body. Yeah, that'd be helpful for some part of the city but it would hardly have made a dent in Detroit's collapse and isn't the cause of DC's rebound.

Find a city Detroit can actually compare to. Detroit isn't the next Brooklyn, or D.C. or Houston.

If you're the one suggesting that we can't compare the two cities, I think it's incumbent on you to find a better comparison. Chicago? Cleveland? DC and Detroit share a similar regional size [[5.7 million Detroit-Windsor area vs. 5.8 million DC area), similar history of racial issues and riots [[though I'd definitely take Coleman Young over Marion Barry), similar major declines in the 1950s/1960s/1970s, are both one-industry towns overly dependent on that industry's particular whims, are/were both "murder capitals" of the USA. That's about as good as you're gonna get for any two cities given how messy the real world is. And yet one spent the 1990s and 2000s falling ever farther into the hole while one was becoming a top-3 destination for young people to move to with ongoing population growth. I think this difference is worth our attention, and I suspect its causes are more complex than a jump in national defense spending.

As Wesley Mouch posted just above, Detroit needs to get in the game of building a workable city. That's what the current benefactors appear to be aiming for, and that's what DC has managed to do [[though not fully) over the past three decades. I'd argue that looking at what other declining cities have done right would be a good place to start in achieving that goal, whatever the differences between the communities.

[emu steve]

There are some REALLY good comments flowing on this D.C and Detroit and how one is thriving and the other is trying to reboot and reclaim what it once was.

ONE, of many, things which distinguishes the D.C. area and Detroit is how well the D.C.-area governments work together.

Saturday's opening of the Silver Line [[subway) is again another example of how government leaders from D.C., No. Va, Prince Georges County, Montgomery County, etc. work together for the good of all. It was a love fest among politicians from NoVa., D.C., and Maryland.

I worked in Ann Arbor for a while before coming to D.C. [[1979) Washtenaw County seemed very well run for the benefit of all.

I look at Wayne County and don't see a well run county. I see the animus between Oakland and Detroit [[we had that problem in the 80s between our No. Virginia congressman and Marion Berry in D.C. Fortunately for us, that ended.)

So based on my life's experiences:

I've seen cities and counties very, very well run [[e.g., Washtenaw County, Fairfax County, Va., Arlington County, Va; etc.).

I've seen cities, both Detroit and D.C., which had real problems in governance. D.C. has turned it around significantly. Detroit appears to be making progress.

The big thing is that D.C. and the D.C. area is light years ahead of Detroit and the Detroit area of solving its regional problems.

The opening of the Silver [[subway) Line Saturday means a worker in Prince Georges county [[Md.) can take the subway to the posh Tysons Corner area of Fairfax County. Our subway system has promoted a melting pot of ridership [[a subway train in D.C. might have a high paid government worker, a poor kid taking the train to school, tourists, etc.).

Also, in the federal government, folks of every race, national origin, age, sexual orientation, etc. worked side by side. The area prides itself on its diversity, not something the Detroit area can say with a straight face.

I really, really believe the D.C. just didn't get good fortune as if it landed from heaven, but the area has worked really, really hard to make things work and work for all...

[TennisAndMath]

As explained above, federal employment is not booming and increased spending doesn't coincide with the turnaround in DC. Moreover, the collapse of DC in the 1950s/1960s coincided with an enormous increase in the size of the federal government. Clearly federal spending has helped the DC region in a major way since 9/11. But the growth of defense contractors in suburban VA office towers doesn't explain why the city of Washington itself was able to arrest its population decline and begin growing again while converting large swathes of burned out or impoverished neighborhoods into valuable, attractive real estate.

Yes, the Metro was built. That was intentional, not ordained by fate. Maybe instead of dully wondering why DC is so lucky and Detroit is so cursed and using the difference to avoid comparisons, the region should get off its ass and build some decent transit the way DC did.

DC is on the coast [[or at least sort of near other East Coast cities), Detroit is the busiest international crossing with our largest trade partner. Every city has its geographical advantages. I doubt this goes very far to explain why DC is growing and Detroit is not.

Sure, DC is warmer than Detroit but this is hardly a big factor. Summer in DC is hell. Winter's cold [[30-45) and wet and even gets snow a couple times. Maybe it's better than MI depending on your preference for heat vs. cold but SoCal it ain't.

Wayne State and Detroit Mercy together are as big as Georgetown and GWU combined. I don't think the additional presence of American U, Catholic, and Howard explains much about the major differences between Washington and Detroit. Put together, those three add another WSU sized student body. Yeah, that'd be helpful for some part of the city but it would hardly have made a dent in Detroit's collapse and isn't the cause of DC's rebound.



If you're the one suggesting that we can't compare the two cities, I think it's incumbent on you to find a better comparison. Chicago? Cleveland? DC and Detroit share a similar regional size [[5.7 million Detroit-Windsor area vs. 5.8 million DC area), similar history of racial issues and riots [[though I'd definitely take Coleman Young over Marion Barry), similar major declines in the 1950s/1960s/1970s, are both one-industry towns overly dependent on that industry's particular whims, are/were both "murder capitals" of the USA. That's about as good as you're gonna get for any two cities given how messy the real world is. And yet one spent the 1990s and 2000s falling ever farther into the hole while one was becoming a top-3 destination for young people to move to with ongoing population growth. I think this difference is worth our attention, and I suspect its causes are more complex than a jump in national defense spending.

As Wesley Mouch posted just above, Detroit needs to get in the game of building a workable city. That's what the current benefactors appear to be aiming for, and that's what DC has managed to do [[though not fully) over the past three decades. I'd argue that looking at what other declining cities have done right would be a good place to start in achieving that goal, whatever the differences between the communities.

I can't even debate with you because your regional bias clouds any chance of a constructive dialogue. You really think Mercy and Wayne are comparable to Georgetown and GWU? You really think anyone graduating from college cares about a freaking border crossing? Then you completely dismiss the weather and coast. Lol. I'm sorry, it's obviously impossible to talk with you about this.

Detroit needs to find a land locked city that's doing well. Pittsburgh, I guess? Although everyone I know there says it's fairly miserable, despite the improvements. Saying Detroit can become D.C. is like introducing a DPS dropout to a medical doctor and telling them to go become a surgeon. You have to be more realistic.

[canuck]

I can't even debate with you because your regional bias clouds any chance of a constructive dialogue. You really think Mercy and Wayne are comparable to Georgetown and GWU? You really think anyone graduating from college cares about a freaking border crossing? Then you completely dismiss the weather and coast. Lol. I'm sorry, it's obviously impossible to talk with you about this.

Detroit needs to find a land locked city that's doing well. Pittsburgh, I guess? Although everyone I know there says it's fairly miserable, despite the improvements. Saying Detroit can become D.C. is like introducing a DPS dropout to a medical doctor and telling them to go become a surgeon. You have to be more realistic.

Think regional.

If you did a survey of all the engineering capacity in Detroit metro, and the wealth created by the auto and other industries, you could figure a way toward a prosperous metropolis.

What a strange place Washington was when all this crime and destruction was happening, in the capital of the richest country in hemispheres 1 and 2 [[North and South) or hemispheres 3 and 4 [[East and West) take your pick.

Detroit is still weird as hell to a lot of people. It doesnt have Big Govt that bloats the DC region, I like the groundhog figure of speech to describe the stalling. If the suburban belt felt the beginnings of a pinch, then maybe the quick connect to federal apparatus would bring in some much needed help. When does this happen though?

[swingline]

Yes, decline has been reversed in many DC neighborhoods over the past 20 years. [[Not so much in most of Anacostia and NE DC.) And Detroit could certainly learn a thing or two from what has worked for DC in these neighborhoods including aggressive adaptive reuse of obsolete commercial structures, "complete streets" planning, low parking minimums and community policing strategies. But on a more macro scale, it is impossible to examine the cities as apples to apples. World class mass transit in the form of the Metro exists in the entire DC region as a permanent fuel for economic development there. Detroit has nothing remotely comparable and that absence changes the equation. In many circumstances one can't just say that, well, DC does it this way so why can't Detroit do it too. The Metro creates access to hundreds of thousands of jobs and immeasurably improves urban density and property values. It is a wealth and jobs creator and without it, DC's turnaround, even with the constant flow of federal jobs and spending, would have been far more modest.

[emu steve]

Yes, decline has been reversed in many DC neighborhoods over the past 20 years. [[Not so much in most of Anacostia and NE DC.) And Detroit could certainly learn a thing or two from what has worked for DC in these neighborhoods including aggressive adaptive reuse of obsolete commercial structures, "complete streets" planning, low parking minimums and community policing strategies. But on a more macro scale, it is impossible to examine the cities as apples to apples. World class mass transit in the form of the Metro exists in the entire DC region as a permanent fuel for economic development there. Detroit has nothing remotely comparable and that absence changes the equation. In many circumstances one can't just say that, well, DC does it this way so why can't Detroit do it too. The Metro creates access to hundreds of thousands of jobs and immeasurably improves urban density and property values. It is a wealth and jobs creator and without it, DC's turnaround, even with the constant flow of federal jobs and spending, would have been far more modest.

Well stated!

On transportation, a person from the poorest part of the region has the same access to a world class transportation system as anyone else.

The system is really [[economically) class-less. Workers making the minimum wage and six figure salaries utilize the same system.

I doubt anyone has compiled the data, but I'd love to know the number of jobs which are physically located say within a half-mile radius of a subway stop; let's call them 'accessible' jobs. It does an excellent job of moving the worker to his job no matter where in the region it might be.

[canuck]

Yes, emu Steve, death apart; subways and trains are the great equalizer.

I really enjoy using the subway just to get a "human buzz". You get to experience the evolution of a city; its fashions,
the ethnic makeup and just the variety of folks who transit, rich and poor, fit and handicapped, etc... Apart from small businesses in the hub stations, there are also designated spots for musicians [[auditioned and approved) to play for money in rotation. So there are opportunities that breed connectivity in a lot of ways. I do think Detroit will benefit from new transit schemes in the future. When it does get a new scheme, it will be new and state of the art. That will give the city an advantage over other ones.
I am at a four minute walk from a Metro station in my city, and it is one of the five major indices of value and lifestyle that made us move to the city.

[ghettopalmetto]

World class mass transit in the form of the Metro exists in the entire DC region as a permanent fuel for economic development there. Detroit has nothing remotely comparable and that absence changes the equation. In many circumstances one can't just say that, well, DC does it this way so why can't Detroit do it too. The Metro creates access to hundreds of thousands of jobs and immeasurably improves urban density and property values. It is a wealth and jobs creator and without it, DC's turnaround, even with the constant flow of federal jobs and spending, would have been far more modest.

What's most impressive about the Metro is that it was constructed through agreement between the District, Maryland, Virginia, and Congress, as well as the participating local governments. Yet in Detroit, the single-state Michigan Legislature can't even create an RTA with teeth...and the road planners at SEMCOG have already decreed that Sexybus will solve all of Southeast Michigan's transit woes.

What's least impressive is the short-sighted planning and amount of funding dedicated to Metro. The Rosslyn Portal--as well as the Blue/Orange segment through DC--was already clogged before the Silver Line obtained construction funds. To my knowledge, there are no concrete plans to separate the Blue Line from the Orange, even though it has been proposed [[and immediately written off as "too expensive"). Part of that is because Metro changed its planning mechanism, delegating those functions to each of the three jurisdictions...a project with regional benefit, such as separation of the Blue and Orange Lines, would be incumbent entirely on the District to fund.

There also isn't much redundancy in the system [[i.e. multiple routing options, express tracks), nor are there plans for subway expansion in the District as it grows. To say nothing of the idiocy of running a frequent, expensive mode of urban transit in the median of a freeway to an airport over 30 miles away from town....

I will agree, though, that the better problem is that too many people want Metro service, vis-a-vis transit viewed as a nonessential commodity as it is in Detroit. And it has helped create more loci for development to take place, despite the best efforts of the suburban counties to full-tilt embrace 1950s-style planning.

[Junjie]

I can't even debate with you because your regional bias clouds any chance of a constructive dialogue. You really think Mercy and Wayne are comparable to Georgetown and GWU? You really think anyone graduating from college cares about a freaking border crossing? Then you completely dismiss the weather and coast. Lol. I'm sorry, it's obviously impossible to talk with you about this.

It seems you had a lot of trouble understanding my post.

I pointed out that WSU and Mercy together are about the same size as Georgetown and GWU. That's a measurable fact. Which is to say, they bring in about the same number of students, faculty, and staff to work and live in Detroit that Georgetown and GWU do for Washington. Are you disputing that?

No, I don't think people specifically care about border crossings. But since the border crossing generates something like a quarter million jobs and billions of dollars in business, it would seem to be at least as relevant as DC's position "on the coast". [[I'm not sure what you're referring to here, unless you just mean it's grouped with the "East Coast" cities. It's certainly not on the ocean.)

Detroit needs to find a land locked city that's doing well. Pittsburgh, I guess? Although everyone I know there says it's fairly miserable, despite the improvements. Saying Detroit can become D.C. is like introducing a DPS dropout to a medical doctor and telling them to go become a surgeon. You have to be more realistic.

Yeah, Pittsburgh might be a good fit. That's useful. I've only visited Pittsburgh whereas I've lived in Michigan and DC so I'd be interested to hear more about what Pittsburgh has "done right" that might apply to Detroit.

I'm not saying Detroit should become DC. I'm saying DC experienced a massive population collapse, horrible racial strife, and yet somehow ended up on the exact opposite end of the spectrum as Detroit. Maybe there are some things DC did that Detroit could emulate. Is that really such a bizarre notion? Obviously they aren't exactly the same. But I think emu steve [[regional cooperation) and swingline [[complete streets, community policing, metro) already made two excellent points about some regional differences that have nothing to do with the inherent qualities of DC or Detroit.

[Junjie]

What's least impressive is the short-sighted planning and amount of funding dedicated to Metro. The Rosslyn Portal--as well as the Blue/Orange segment through DC--was already clogged before the Silver Line obtained construction funds. To my knowledge, there are no concrete plans to separate the Blue Line from the Orange, even though it has been proposed [[and immediately written off as "too expensive").

Off topic for DetroitYes at this point but check out the WMATA planning blog:
http://planitmetro.com/2014/07/03/ne...ons-revisited/

http://planitmetro.com/2013/12/05/pr...orail-network/

The real work/fight to separate Orange and Blue is just getting started, not being written off. The saving grace of the crush at Rosslyn may be to make it so bad that everyone agrees something must be done.

[piczka]

Gilbert is in the mortgage business and knows the real estate game inside and out, with a lot of money to spend. Mortgages are cash cows with no overhead to speak of other than a few computers and employees. Ilitch is a pizza vendor and sport investor. He knows how to play his game as well. The latter is more interested in finding a new home for his teams than becoming a real estate baron. He has a lot of overhead in his casino and sport teams which I believe places some limits on his entrepreneurial ambitions.

[gameguy56]

Yeah, Pittsburgh might be a good fit. That's useful. I've only visited Pittsburgh whereas I've lived in Michigan and DC so I'd be interested to hear more about what Pittsburgh has "done right" that might apply to Detroit.
.

I am from Pittsburgh....I don't think it's really a straight up comparison. It'd be more like Detroit if all of the major employers and universities were outside the city limits. All of the old riverfront mill towns in the Pittsburgh area are in terrible shape. Especially the majority black Monongahela valley cities like Duquesne and McKeesport.


Imagine Detroit if U of M, Chrysler, and Ford, LTU, Madonna,Cranbrook,etc. were all within the City limits. If all those towers in southfield and troy were downtown instead.

Pittsburgh was just geographically lucky that it didn't have hundreds of square miles of beet fields to plow over and swamps to drain. Pittsburgh also has lots of natural gas. Which you can't really say for Detroit. What Pittsburgh has 'done right' is basically be lucky.


As far as inland cities doing well. I guess Houston/Dallas but does Texas really count? Chicago is just running on momentum right now and has serious issues as a city. I guess Indy, Cincy and Columbus are doing pretty good but they're much smaller.

[TennisAndMath]

It seems you had a lot of trouble understanding my post.

I pointed out that WSU and Mercy together are about the same size as Georgetown and GWU. That's a measurable fact. Which is to say, they bring in about the same number of students, faculty, and staff to work and live in Detroit that Georgetown and GWU do for Washington. 1.) Are you disputing that?

No, I don't think people specifically care about border crossings. 2.) But since the border crossing generates something like a quarter million jobs and billions of dollars in business, 3.) it would seem to be at least as relevant as DC's position "on the coast". [[I'm not sure what you're referring to here, unless you just mean it's grouped with the "East Coast" cities. It's certainly not on the ocean.)

1.) Yes, I'm disputing that two world class colleges, plus American, Catholic and Howard bring vastly more economic impact than Wayne and Mercy [[schools nobody outside of Metro Detroit have even heard of). It sounds like you've never been to D.C. before.

2.) Never in my life heard anyone say they have their job or are seeking out Michigan for work because of a border crossing. California has perfect weather ... but Michigan has a border crossing to Windsor! Perhaps it provides some economic boost to the region, but you're grossly exaggerating it. Whenever politicians bring it up I always felt it was a really desperate attempt to make the state look better. "We have cherries... and a border crossing... and we were the birthplace of Motown." A fruit, a bridge the average resident doesn't use, and a record label that fled Detroit 40 years ago.

3.) You don't realize what Seattle, LA, SF, SD, Miami, New York, Boston, D.C. have in common? The most talented people in the nation gravitate towards major cities on the coasts. I don't see the trend reversing.

[ghettopalmetto]

3.) You don't realize what Seattle, LA, SF, SD, Miami, New York, Boston, D.C. have in common? The most talented people in the nation gravitate towards major cities on the coasts. I don't see the trend reversing.

It seems like you've concluded that Detroit can never be a successful, thriving city, because it's not a major city on the coast. So if everything is beyond anyone's control--as you seem to believe--why do you even bother posting here? Is wallowing and feeling sorry for yourself going to improve anything?

Never mind that Detroit was once one of the richest cities in the world...despite not being on the coast. And I'd take serious issue with your claim that "the most talented" people are on the coasts. I can tell you there are a heck of a lot of loser hangers-on in all of the cities you noted. I'd rather Detroit have people with dreams, and the balls to implement them, than to be a collection of insecure trend-followers who just want to "be seen".

With that said, I think Dan Gilbert somewhat captures the spirit of a dreamer, and he has demonstrated that he has an idea of what will make Detroit a better city. To me, though, he does appear to be a bit "number crunchy" to be truly innovative. Ilitch, on the other hand, has made a career out of anti-pizza, and soaking the public for whatever he can get.

[TennisAndMath]

1.) It seems like you've concluded that Detroit can never be a successful, thriving city, because it's not a major city on the coast. So if everything is beyond anyone's control--as you seem to believe--why do you even bother posting here? Is wallowing and feeling sorry for yourself going to improve anything?

2.) Never mind that Detroit was once one of the richest cities in the world...despite not being on the coast.

3.) And I'd take serious issue with your claim that "the most talented" people are on the coasts.

1.) Didn't say that. Highly challenging in 2014 if only due to location. Add in the issues and solvency of the city/region and you have a very tough road ahead. The access to water might help.

2.) The auto boom happened pre-globalization + pre-air conditioning + pre-air travel + cusp of lumber industry slowdown + pre-union busting + a level of serendipitous. You will never see northern land locked midwest cities boom like that ever again.

3.) You can take issue with it all you want, it's a fact. Coastal and southern cities are kicking the crap out of cold weather landlocked cities. The anomalies are Chicago, Denver and Salt Lake City?

[iheartthed]

3.) You can take issue with it all you want, it's a fact. Coastal and southern cities are kicking the crap out of cold weather landlocked cities. The anomalies are Chicago, Denver and Salt Lake City?

Minneapolis is doing great. It's only the Rust Belt cities that are laggards. That's not geography, it's the culture of the region.