Ilitch announces Huge plans for Red Wings Arena Project - Renderings Released

[TennisAndMath]

Spot on @ghettopalmetto. I'm also having trouble with everyone claiming there is all of this incredible demand for downtown apartments. Last I checked, each and every apartment development is taxpayer subsidized in some regard and there isn't there still that $1,000[[?) rental credit college grads get for signing or re-signing a Detroit lease? The only facts I see cited about demand are how two or three of the higher-end buildings allegedly have "wait lists." If that's even true, there are all sorts of crappy apartments in Ann Arbor and even Rochester with "wait lists." That's a pretty common thing in my experience of apartment renting.

[EL Jimbo]

The Palace is an incredibly convenient venue for us. We gave up my Pistons season tickets [[we had since it opened) because they're terrible, the crowd became annoying and it was a waste of time. We still attend all of the major concerts.

Your "nobody is scared" is more of the same BS coded language, which suggests anyone "afraid" of Detroit is an old racist. [[And in 2003, anyone against the war in Iraq was anti-American, right?) People should always be on high alert in Detroit. If they're not, it just highlights the suburban arrogance that everything is always OK because they're wealthy, savvy and super-smart. Nobody would dare touch them! I saw this arrogance both summers I spent abroad in college and on various trips oversees. Affluent and naive young Americans think some sort of bubble or shield protects them wherever they go. Sketchy district in Paris, ghettos of Thailand... most violent major US city? No problem, we're likable Americans!

If you don't think anyone is scared of Detroit, I'm wondering why no Detroit gas stations report an uptick in revenue when games are going on. Wonder why those brave "30-somethings and younger" aren't stopping for snacks or fuel.

BS coded language? You are the one putting words into my mouth. I wasn't claiming anyone was a racist at all. All I was saying is that for years there was NOTHING to do downtown, it was dangerous, and most people had no business being there after 5 PM mon-fri. Downtown spent years like that that and to many older folks, that is how it still is down there in their mind.

Gen Y folks such as myself, were only kids when downtown was like that. For example, I was only 11 years old in 1992 when my dad said we were no longer going to Tiger Stadium for the night game because they happened to announce the verdicts for Budzyn and Nevers in the Malice Green case. By the time we became adults, downtown was slowly starting to turn itself around and we never had that fear of downtown like the previous generations did.

Also, I think you are trying to shift the bar here because your argument got blown up. Comparing downtown to sketchy neighborhoods in Paris and ghettos in Thailand is simply grasping at straws. Sure, it is very important to be mindful of your surroundings and to exercise caution in terms of where you go, but that is a LOT different than some of the suburban folks of a certain age who like to brag about having never set foot within the city limits of Detroit in the past 30 years.

Lastly, the only people the Palace is convenient for live in Oakland County...and it isn't even all of Oakland County. I tried to go to a midweek playoff game at the Palace in 2002 or 2003. We left from South Lyon for an 8 PM tip off at 5:30. Due to the traffic, we didn't get to our seats until halfway through the first quarter.

The Palace blows and the only way it remains successful as a concert venue is because it's facilities are vastly superior to that of the Joe or Cobo [[when it was still an arena). When this new arena opens up in 2017, the Palace is really going to be hurting.

[EL Jimbo]

What short memories people have. After Ilitch acquired the Tigers, he started making noise about moving the team to the suburbs because city and state leaders didn't rubberstamp his idea for massive subsidies for a new stadium. Whether Ilitch was serious about his plans to move the team or was doing it to extort more taxpayer dollars, it's clear that his loyalties to the city don't run any deeper than his love for the almighty dollar.

I'm not saying the man is a saint. I'm not even saying he's a good person. He certainly isn't doing this out of the kindness of his heart. He sees this as an opportunity to make money.

My question is so what? Detroit doesn't NEED charity. What it needs is people who recognize they can invest in the city and they can make money doing it. That's how capitalism works and ultimately, Detroit will never come back unless people with money see it as a safe profitable place to invest.

Yes, there is a lot of taxpayer money tied up in this project, but Olympia is also putting up a sizable chunk of money too.

[ghettopalmetto]

Beyond the Welfare Queen approach to this project, and all Stockholm Syndrome Hero Worship of Mike Ilitch, I see some architectural problems with this project. Now, I'm not against the idea of a mixed-use area. I'm not even against construction of an arena. But I think the renderings show a very dull, uninspired approach. And if the City of Detroit and State of Michigan are going to spend hundreds of millions on a PUBLIC building, I think the architect could do better. Problems I see:

1. The design itself is blah. There's nothing about any of it that says "Detroit". This is why they had to draw a giant Winged Wheel on top of the arena, lest someone think this project was in Winnipeg or Houston or Atlanta. The bright LED lighting, I think, is intended to distract people from noticing how dull the building is. Also, the lines of the adjacent buildings look sloppy, leaving the arena poorly-defined. To my eyes, it looks like the entire block was slapped together and is on the verge of falling. I've seen Bedouin encampments with more definition.

2. The entrances aren't incredibly well-defined either. It's confusing. The main entrances appear to front I-75. No problem so far. But when the wall of trees seems to want to segregate the road from the building, I'm not sure that's the way you want your building to face. The building would work better with multiple entries on Woodward.

3. The surrounding buildings are cookie-cutter nouveau-suburban at its best. Identical glass and brick whee. Looks like a shopping center. Maybe the final product could use more than two cladding materials, considering this project has been 20 years in the making. Given how much character was destroyed in scorched-earth preparation, it'd be cool to restore some character to this swath of downtown.

4. Speaking of shopping center, I think the arcades could have a "RenCen" effect, taking people off the street.

5. Enormous amounts of parking, all at the periphery, segregating the arena from the surrounding blocks. Again, shopping center approach. Looks exactly like Columbus. Applaud the construction of the garages, but the one at the rear completely ignores and disrespects adjacent buildings that could [[God willing) be renovated into productive space. Sloppy sloppy.

I know these are just renderings, but there is definitely room for improvement.

[EL Jimbo]

"Exorbitant", "Unreasonable" = anyone other than the City of Detroit, who sells Ilitch valuable downtown real estate for $1, if not outright gifting it to him.

You don't need 40 blocks to build a hockey arena. You don't need 40 blocks to build a baseball stadium. A quick look at Google Maps makes this pretty freaking obvious.

Even if the entirety of the renderings reaches fruition, Ilitch will have still destroyed more property than he built. And at incredible taxpayer expense for both.



No, they don't. If Mike Ilitch has proven anything, it's his incredible stamina and perseverance in sitting on vacant property.



Is there a Demand Meter in Downtown Detroit that I just can't see? How does a government-subsidized project indicate the presence of demand? This arena project isn't driven by demand [[unless you count Ilitch's demand for Free Ca$h). The new arena is driven by an expiring lease at Joe Louis, and Olympia's desire to vacuum more taxpayer funds into their pockets.



When the Wooden Rabbit doesn't work, you build a Wooden Badger. Glad to see Detroit is in the competent hands of Monty Python.



You know what else gets people downtown? Apartments. Offices. Basically anything other than empty lots.



Pure speculation on your part.



The chutzpah to bleed the City dry??? How ballsy!

GP, you are just being irrational.

Yes, there is no denying that Olympia has been given every sweetheart deal imaginable from the City and it definitely throws into question the ethics of the situation. However, that being said, it is well documented that there are private property owners that held up both the development of CoPa and the development of this new arena because they were asking sums well beyond the actual value of their property for Olympia to purchase them.

Moving on, you are right, you don't need 40 blocks to build an arena or a stadium. However, the vision of this development goes far beyond an arena or a stadium. If you can't acknowledge that than you are being intentionally obtuse.

The Ilitch's have a bad record when it comes to historic preservation. That is for certain. However, let's not pretend they destroyed everything in their path either. How much of the property they purchased was already demolished when they got it? How much was beyond repair? It isn't like the Ilitch's were operating in a vacuum here. A whole bunch of stuff has been torn down and left vacant in Detroit over the last 50 years.

As far as demand goes, the "demand meter" is the fact that rental rates are approaching the supposed magic number of $2/sq. ft needed to sustain market rate rental investment and demand is still way above 90% throughout the Downtown/Midtown areas.

As far as what's driving the desire for a new stadium is the fact that the Joe is now the oldest arena in the NHL, it was a dump when it was built, and it has not held up well over the years as sports fans desired more and better amenities when they attend a sporting event. The expiring lease only makes this the ideal time to build a replacement.

While I appreciate the Monty Python reference, I don't think it fits. Let me ask you this, GP. Since you are so adamantly against the stadiums, lets go back in time and pretend they were never built. What would that part of downtown look like today? What would be there? Would it be better than what is there today?

And you are right, apartments and offices also get people downtown. but only if people want to move their businesses and their residences down there. And what has been the catalyst for convincing people like Dan Gilbert to invest their money and sometimes move their household downtown? The changing perception that Downtown is a safe, fun place to invest. That changing perception started the day Comerica Park opened and people started going downtown again.

[EL Jimbo]

Beyond the Welfare Queen approach to this project, and all Stockholm Syndrome Hero Worship of Mike Ilitch, I see some architectural problems with this project. Now, I'm not against the idea of a mixed-use area. I'm not even against construction of an arena. But I think the renderings show a very dull, uninspired approach. And if the City of Detroit and State of Michigan are going to spend hundreds of millions on a PUBLIC building, I think the architect could do better. Problems I see:

1. The design itself is blah. There's nothing about any of it that says "Detroit". This is why they had to draw a giant Winged Wheel on top of the arena, lest someone think this project was in Winnipeg or Houston or Atlanta. The bright LED lighting, I think, is intended to distract people from noticing how dull the building is. Also, the lines of the adjacent buildings look sloppy, leaving the arena poorly-defined. To my eyes, it looks like the entire block was slapped together and is on the verge of falling. I've seen Bedouin encampments with more definition.

2. The entrances aren't incredibly well-defined either. It's confusing. The main entrances appear to front I-75. No problem so far. But when the wall of trees seems to want to segregate the road from the building, I'm not sure that's the way you want your building to face. The building would work better with multiple entries on Woodward.

3. The surrounding buildings are cookie-cutter nouveau-suburban at its best. Identical glass and brick whee. Looks like a shopping center. Maybe the final product could use more than two cladding materials, considering this project has been 20 years in the making. Given how much character was destroyed in scorched-earth preparation, it'd be cool to restore some character to this swath of downtown.

4. Speaking of shopping center, I think the arcades could have a "RenCen" effect, taking people off the street.

5. Enormous amounts of parking, all at the periphery, segregating the arena from the surrounding blocks. Again, shopping center approach. Looks exactly like Columbus. Applaud the construction of the garages, but the one at the rear completely ignores and disrespects adjacent buildings that could [[God willing) be renovated into productive space. Sloppy sloppy.

I know these are just renderings, but there is definitely room for improvement.

I will agree that the architecture is pretty bland for the most part. Hopefully they will do something more creative with the outbuildings.

However, I think you misconstrued the rendering in terms of the entrances. It looks like the main entrance will be at the intersection of Woodward and Henry, not the I-75 service drive.

As far as the parking is concerned, there isn't much you can do with parking structures, but you have to put the cars somewhere. having them run along Clifford and Cass gets them better access to I-75 and is the most "out of the way" spot in the area immediately around the arena to put them. Plus, they will be kiddy corner from the Masonic Temple so perhaps the surface lot and vacant lot that sit just south of Temple from the Masonic Temple can be developed into something given the ample parking that will have been made available.

[ghettopalmetto]

GP, you are just being irrational.

Yes, there is no denying that Olympia has been given every sweetheart deal imaginable from the City and it definitely throws into question the ethics of the situation. However, that being said, it is well documented that there are private property owners that held up both the development of CoPa and the development of this new arena because they were asking sums well beyond the actual value of their property for Olympia to purchase them.

I think what you mean is, "Some property owners were asking for more money than Mr. Ilitch was willing to spend." To say that these owners "held up Comerica Park and the arena" implies that there was not sufficient land to construct either project. The vast Ilitch-owned wastelands west of the Fox and north of the Fisher Freeway tell me this is not the case.

Moving on, you are right, you don't need 40 blocks to build an arena or a stadium. However, the vision of this development goes far beyond an arena or a stadium. If you can't acknowledge that than you are being intentionally obtuse.

Vision? This is no vision. It's a mall.

As far as demand goes, the "demand meter" is the fact that rental rates are approaching the supposed magic number of $2/sq. ft needed to sustain market rate rental investment and demand is still way above 90% throughout the Downtown/Midtown areas.

Excuse me: What the fuck does apartment occupancy have to do with building a subsidized hockey arena?

As far as what's driving the desire for a new stadium is the fact that the Joe is now the oldest arena in the NHL, it was a dump when it was built, and it has not held up well over the years as sports fans desired more and better amenities when they attend a sporting event. The expiring lease only makes this the ideal time to build a replacement.

So let Olympia build it themselves. Mike Ilitch can cut a personal check--he has more money than the City of Detroit does.

And what has been the catalyst for convincing people like Dan Gilbert to invest their money and sometimes move their household downtown? The changing perception that Downtown is a safe, fun place to invest. That changing perception started the day Comerica Park opened and people started going downtown again.

This is one of the most naive comments on city building anyone could make. People were going downtown long before you discovered Comerica Park. If downtown wasn't safe, people would never have gone to Comerica Park in the first place--just like they would not have gone to Michigan and Trumbull. Comerica Park didn't make anything "safer", and neither will the arena.

What's your solution for rebuilding other areas of downtown, like Michigan Avenue or Gratiot--build another $400 million stadium to show how safe it is?

[EL Jimbo]

I think what you mean is, "Some property owners were asking for more money than Mr. Ilitch was willing to spend." To say that these owners "held up Comerica Park and the arena" implies that there was not sufficient land to construct either project. The vast Ilitch-owned wastelands west of the Fox and north of the Fisher Freeway tell me this is not the case.



Vision? This is no vision. It's a mall.




Excuse me: What the fuck does apartment occupancy have to do with building a subsidized hockey arena?



So let Olympia build it themselves. Mike Ilitch can cut a personal check--he has more money than the City of Detroit does.




This is one of the most naive comments on city building anyone could make. People were going downtown long before you discovered Comerica Park. If downtown wasn't safe, people would never have gone to Comerica Park in the first place--just like they would not have gone to Michigan and Trumbull. Comerica Park didn't make anything "safer", and neither will the arena.

What's your solution for rebuilding other areas of downtown, like Michigan Avenue or Gratiot--build another $400 million stadium to show how safe it is?

I see you've intentionally ignored my questions as well as tried to change the argument. You asked about a "demand meter". I gave you the answer and now suddenly it doesn't matter anymore? There's really no point in continuing this discussion. You don't like it and there is no amount of logic or differing perspective that can sway you on this.

[ghettopalmetto]

I see you've intentionally ignored my questions as well as tried to change the argument. You asked about a "demand meter". I gave you the answer and now suddenly it doesn't matter anymore? There's really no point in continuing this discussion. You don't like it and there is no amount of logic or differing perspective that can sway you on this.

You're talking about occupancy rates of apartments, as demonstrating that there is "demand" for a subsidized hockey arena. One does not lead to the other.

High occupancy rates for apartments means that there is high demand for apartments at current price points. That's it. No more, no less. It has nothing to do with hockey or Billionaire Welfare Queens.

[TennisAndMath]

With all due respect, can someone post something that independently verifies there are apartment buildings in Detroit that are 100% occupied? Which buildings exactly? Do these buildings accept subsidized housing vouchers?

[emu steve]

Spot on @ghettopalmetto. I'm also having trouble with everyone claiming there is all of this incredible demand for downtown apartments. Last I checked, each and every apartment development is taxpayer subsidized in some regard and there isn't there still that $1,000[[?) rental credit college grads get for signing or re-signing a Detroit lease? The only facts I see cited about demand are how two or three of the higher-end buildings allegedly have "wait lists." If that's even true, there are all sorts of crappy apartments in Ann Arbor and even Rochester with "wait lists." That's a pretty common thing in my experience of apartment renting.

Let me respectively submit this Freep article which rebuts all of the issues raised here with quotes from those in the rental real estate business: [[emphasis is mine)

http://www.freep.com/article/2014072...SS06/307200105

James Van Dyke, a vice president at the Roxbury Group, a developer active in Midtown and downtown, said he believes Detroit’s market can absorb a significant volume of new apartments. New apartment buildings may actually create demand for even more apartment buildings, he said, as the addition of residents and amenities would add vibrancy to the area.
“We’re at a point where we need to start adding hundreds of units a year to keep up with demand,” he said.
The newest significant development to open in Midtown, 3909 Woodward, opened in late March and by early June had leased all of its 61 apartments. Typical prices range from $990 to $1,250 a month for one-bedroom units, up to $1,830 for the largest two-bedroom unit.
April Dawson, leasing associate for the Woodward building, said she receives 10 to 15 calls or e-mails a day inquiring whether there are apartments left. The best she can do is add names to the waiting list. “I hate disappointing people,” she said.

*********

If I were the Ilitches I'd try to get the parking garage by Comerica built ASAP and start working on those 300 units in front of Comerica.

Not trying to create demand but meet demand which now exists.

[TennisAndMath]

Emu steve, people with a vested interest to pump their holdings are not a legitimate source. I also don't consider cheerleading papers like Freep, D News or Crain's to be legitimate in this regard, unless they cite independent data.

[TennisAndMath]

The newest significant development to open in Midtown, 3909 Woodward, opened in late March and by early June had leased all of its 61 apartments. Typical prices range from $990 to $1,250 a month for one-bedroom units, up to $1,830 for the largest two-bedroom unit.
April Dawson, leasing associate for the Woodward building, said she receives 10 to 15 calls or e-mails a day inquiring whether there are apartments left. The best she can do is add names to the waiting list. “I hate disappointing people,” she said.

61 apartments, so we're talking about 100 or so people. How many other newer apartment buildings are full?

[emu steve]

Emu steve, people with a vested interest to pump their holdings are not a legitimate source. I also don't consider cheerleading papers like Freep, D News or Crain's to be legitimate in this regard, unless they cite independent data.

I'd say the Freep, Detnews, and Crains are pretty good sources.

Freep and Detnews are essentially 'newspapers of record' for Detroit and Crains Detroit is the preeminent business newspaper for the Detroit area.

P.S., [[and this is an honest question) if I don't go to Freep, Detnews or Crains for guidance in this matter, what media should I go?

I really don't know of any other local [[Detroit/S.E. MI) media sources.

[TennisAndMath]

I'd say the Freep, Detnews, and Crains are pretty good sources.

Freep and Detnews are essentially 'newspapers of record' for Detroit and Crains Detroit is the preeminent business newspaper for the Detroit area.

P.S., [[and this is an honest question) if I don't go to Freep, Detnews or Crains for guidance in this matter, what media should I go?

I really don't know of any other local [[Detroit/S.E. MI) media sources.

Come on, everyone knows they are bought and paid for by the Big 3 and the local developers. If they cite independent data, sure. If they just quote some local shill [[which is what they do 99% of the time), no I don't buy anything they have to say.

I find the Detroit outlets to be more or less unreadable.

[mwilbert]

Come on, everyone knows they are bought and paid for by the Big 3 and the local developers. If they cite independent data, sure. If they just quote some local shill [[which is what they do 99% of the time), no I don't buy anything they have to say.

I find the Detroit outlets to be more or less unreadable.

You don't have to read them, or believe them, but that leaves you theorizing without any data. I'm not saying that makes you wrong, but it doesn't exactly give you any credibility either. Do you have some data from a source you think reliable that there isn't residential demand in downtown/midtown? I'm curious, because, as far as I can tell, there is. The depth of that demand will only be determined as more units become available at different price levels, but the idea that it doesn't exist at all just seems unsupported, while the idea that it does appears supported by all these buildings with people in them.

[southen]

Come on, everyone knows they are bought and paid for by the Big 3 and the local developers. If they cite independent data, sure. If they just quote some local shill [[which is what they do 99% of the time), no I don't buy anything they have to say.

I find the Detroit outlets to be more or less unreadable.

since you are skeptical of anything anyone here cites, why not look at the fact that new construction is being proposed for housing. if people are willing to build new then there is some pent up demand. OR you can actually be rational and pay attention to what is being reported.

[Zads07]

Come on, everyone knows they are bought and paid for by the Big 3 and the local developers. If they cite independent data, sure. If they just quote some local shill [[which is what they do 99% of the time), no I don't buy anything they have to say.

I find the Detroit outlets to be more or less unreadable.

So sad that you actually believe that. You have no idea how journalism works do you? Stick to your day job my friend and stop speculating.

[TennisAndMath]

So sad that you actually believe that. You have no idea how journalism works do you?

Nope. The numbers suggest the guys running the Detroit mainstays don't either!

I know rubbish when I see it, my friend.

[Zads07]

Nope. The numbers suggests the guys running the Detroit mainstays don't either!

I know rubbish when I see it, my friend.

You must look in the mirror quite often then.

[mwilbert]

You must look in the mirror quite often then.

Is this going to be a productive direction?

[bailey]

You're talking about occupancy rates of apartments, as demonstrating that there is "demand" for a subsidized hockey arena. One does not lead to the other.

No. that is not what anyone is saying. the "demand" is for all the alleged development around the stadium.
Olympia is claiming they'll build some of this contemporaneously with the stadium. as well as on the parking lots behind the church on woodward because there wasn't the demand before...and now there is. I dont trust anything about that claim...but it is what it is.

[EL Jimbo]

You're talking about occupancy rates of apartments, as demonstrating that there is "demand" for a subsidized hockey arena. One does not lead to the other.

High occupancy rates for apartments means that there is high demand for apartments at current price points. That's it. No more, no less. It has nothing to do with hockey or Billionaire Welfare Queens.

Again...intentionally obtuse. You want to create this imaginary universe where this development is ONLY about a hockey arena when it is a massive development that has been masterplanned for as many as 2,000 apartments, retail, office, and other portions outside of the arena.

THAT is where the apartment demand and occupancy rates come in. But go ahead, have fun in your alternate reality where that isn't being discussed apparently.

[Honky Tonk]

No. that is not what anyone is saying. the "demand" is for all the alleged development around the stadium.
Olympia is claiming they'll build some of this contemporaneously with the stadium. as well as on the parking lots behind the church on woodward because there wasn't the demand before...and now there is. I dont trust anything about that claim...but it is what it is.

Ilitch has to make that claim because, as it was pointed out, he stands to gain a cool $60 mil from the DEGC for "developing" that area.

[TennisAndMath]

Again...intentionally obtuse. You want to create this imaginary universe where this development is ONLY about a hockey arena when it is a massive development that has been masterplanned for as many as 2,000 apartments, retail, office, and other portions outside of the arena.

THAT is where the apartment demand and occupancy rates come in. But go ahead, have fun in your alternate reality where that isn't being discussed apparently.

Please detail this demand. One user posted that a 61 unit apartment is full. That's 100 people.