Detroit Still Tearing Down Usable Historic Buildings for Parking Lots/ W. Vernor

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 12:48 PM

Quite early this morning I witnessed a crew dismantling a building on the north side of West Vernor Hwy. just across the street from Holy Redeemer. The block was intact until that moment. The building was brick and restorable.

I understand that the owner of Nice Price, a discounter in an old S. S. Kresge building next door, wanted to create a parking lot. The Southwest Detroit Business Association opposed the idea - but, nevertheless, the building is now gone.

Fifty years of perfectly adequate street parking should have demonstrated that a very narrow parking lot is not necessary.

Now there is a gaping hole in an historic streetscape dating to about 1900, like a missing tooth. The discount store could be gone tomorrow. The hole will not ever be filled [[in my experience.)

What are they thinking???

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

What are they thinking???

They're obviously thinking they want their retail to be profitable.

The fact is that the Vernor strip is dying, and really the only successful retail is that with on-site parking. The customers are coming in cars, so if you don't provide parking, you aren't goint to get the customers.

If you look at the "intact" blocks along the Vernor strip, they have the highest vacancies, and the most marginal retail. In contrast, if you look at the suburban strip-mall blocks, they have few vacancies. It might be bad planning, but it's good business.

The bigger problem is that the Mexican population is moving south and west and into the suburbs. The real Mexicantown now is Springwells, not Vernor. If you're a Mexican merchant along Vernor, you will need to draw customers from places like Lincoln Park and Taylor [[where Mexicans are now buying homes).

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 12:54 PM

???

Some numbers, plz, to justify this opinion that belies what the eyes of this nearby home-owner see daily?

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

???

Some numbers, plz, to justify this opinion that belies what the eyes of this nearby home-owner see daily?

What specific numbers are you looking for? You don't believe Mexicans are leaving the area, or you believe customers aren't coming by car, or you believe that the "old-time" retail doesn't have marginal businesses these days?

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:04 PM

Then, please demonstrate that "customers to Vernor are coming by car - but make sure to include a comparison to the numbers of customers arriving by car say about 15 or ten or even 5 years ago.

I guess that the number of automobile-arriving customers grew after the bike lane was introduced to meet the needs of the younger crown who eschew cars?

**motz** · July-01-14, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Then, please demonstrate that "customers to Vernor are coming by car - but make sure to include a comparison to the numbers of customers arriving by car say about 15 or ten or even 5 years ago.

I guess that the number of automobile-arriving customers grew after the bike lane was introduced to meet the needs of the younger crown who eschew cars?

He'll say "WELL LOOK AT BIRMINGHAM" without providing actual numbers.

The reason they dismantled the building is the ever-perpetual myth that a parking lot is required in order to have a business. It's been going around for decades around here, and we really need to tell businesses that the reason why their traffic is low is because they are a mediocre business, not because they don't have any empty concrete lot with spray paint next door.

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by motz

The reason they dismantled the building is the ever-perpetual myth that a parking lot is required in order to have a business. It's been going around for decades around here, and we really need to tell businesses that the reason why their traffic is low is because they are a mediocre business, not because they don't have any empty concrete lot with spray paint next door.

Pretty ridiculous claim, in that there is no intact business area anywhere in Metro Detroit that lacks easy and convenient parking.

If parking were not a prerequisite for retail vitaility, then why is there no such example anywhere in the tri-county area?

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:01 PM

Let's start with "Mexicans leaving the area."

For sure, as people get a little more money, many relocate to the suburbs. But it sure looks to me like their home are being filled by - more Hispanics!

Could you demonstrate that the Hispanic population of SW Detroit is falling and not being replaced?

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Let's start with "Mexicans leaving the area."

For sure, as people get a little more money, many relocate to the suburbs. But it sure looks to me like their home are being filled by - more Hispanics!

Could you demonstrate that the Hispanic population of SW Detroit is falling and not being replaced?

Absolutely. The U.S. Census has this data, and the NY Times has a handy map to look at racial changes over time, by race.

Take a look at the SW Detroit Census tracts closest to "original Mexicantown" [[Bagley area), and then along Vernor. You'll see Hispanic population decline in all these tracts.

Then take a look at the fringe neighborhoods Detroit, right near the city line [[Springwells). You'll see Hispanic population growth in all these tracts.

Finally take a look at Hispanic growth in the downriver suburbs. You'll see an explosion of Hispanic population.

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

**Danny** · July-02-14, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Absolutely. The U.S. Census has this data, and the NY Times has a handy map to look at racial changes over time, by race.

Take a look at the SW Detroit Census tracts closest to "original Mexicantown" [[Bagley area), and then along Vernor. You'll see Hispanic population decline in all these tracts.

Then take a look at the fringe neighborhoods Detroit, right near the city line [[Springwells). You'll see Hispanic population growth in all these tracts.

Finally take a look at Hispanic growth in the downriver suburbs. You'll see an explosion of Hispanic population.

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

Yes, In a matter of fact new Hispanic owned shops are popping up like mushrooms along Fort St. from Outer Drive to Goodard St. La Sultana Panaderia Y Neveria is very popular Mexican Owned Ice Cream shop on Fort St near Southfield Rd. They get tons of customers every afternoon. They will suck Dairy Queen out of its location spot in couple years.

Lincoln Park has seen a gain of Hispanics in the last two years up to 15 percent. Melvindale has 18 percent and Ecorse has 15 percent. The demolition of Oakwood Heights and the next generation of Hispanics want better housing and living conditions. Moving to Downriver areas or further northward to Detroit West and Northwest side to set to their shops will their next solution. The Hispanic community will grow, but not in an alarming rate.

**nain rouge** · July-01-14, 01:04 PM

Bham1982, he wants numbers that confirm that the businesses in the strip malls along Vernor perform than the other businesses.

The real problem, probably, is that the neighborhoods near Vernor are way less populated today vs. when those strips were built [[http://media.mlive.com/news/detroit_...b19899e459.jpg ). It only makes sense that the retail strip would also lose density.

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Bham1982, he wants numbers that confirm that the businesses in the strip malls along Vernor perform than the other businesses.

Obviously I don't hold the accounting ledgers for the businesses along Vernor. But I do know that having on-site parking is an enormous advantage for businesses in Detroit, for a variety of fairly obvious reasons, but primarily safety and convenience.

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:33 PM

Bham pontificated:

"Real Mexicantown is Springwells, not Vernor."

BUT is this photo [[and the Parade) taken on Springwells or West Vernor:

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Bham pontificated:

"Real Mexicantown is Springwells, not Vernor."

BUT is this photo [[and the Parade) taken on Springwells or West Vernor:

Geez, you got me there. Obviously a random internet photo is more definitive than the decennial Census...

**1953** · July-01-14, 02:01 PM

Grosse Pointe is all retail in its urban commercial strip...

**1953** · July-01-14, 01:34 PM

Why is Detroit the exception, Bham 1982?

**SWMAP** · July-01-14, 01:46 PM

says Bham: "If parking were not a prerequisite for retail vitaility, then why is there no such example anywhere in the tri-county area?" Mis-stating the issue, of course.

Are you blind? Grosse Pointe does not put holes in the streetscape on Mack for parking lots. You have to pay to park behind the street in a parking structure.

Does Downtown Rochester deliberately create gaps in that historic streetscape for parking?

What about Ann Arbor? Does AA allow building owners to buy up perfectly good buildings next door in Kerrytown to demolish for parking?

How about Royal Oak?

**Bham1982** · July-01-14, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Are you blind? Grosse Pointe does not put holes in the streetscape on Mack for parking lots. You have to pay to park behind the street in a parking structure.

Does Downtown Rochester deliberately create gaps in that historic streetscape for parking?

What about Ann Arbor? Does AA allow building owners to buy up perfectly good buildings next door in Kerrytown to demolish for parking?

How about Royal Oak?

None of these areas have extensive retail, Ann Arbor isn't even the tri-county area, and all these areas have abundant free or cheap parking. So really silly or irrelevent examples.

**Hermod** · July-01-14, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Does Downtown Rochester deliberately create gaps in that historic streetscape for parking?

At one time in Rochester, there was a local department store called Mitzelfields. In the 1960s, Bill Mitzelfield noted that a lack of off-street parking was a drag on his business. He looked across the alley behind his business and bought up all of the old houses on the street behind his store, tore them down, and built a parking lot. Other businesses followed suit. If you go to Rochester, you will find massive amounts of parking just east of Main Street.

**animatedmartian** · July-01-14, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

says Bham: "If parking were not a prerequisite for retail vitaility, then why is there no such example anywhere in the tri-county area?" Mis-stating the issue, of course.

Are you blind? Grosse Pointe does not put holes in the streetscape on Mack for parking lots. You have to pay to park behind the street in a parking structure.

Does Downtown Rochester deliberately create gaps in that historic streetscape for parking?

What about Ann Arbor? Does AA allow building owners to buy up perfectly good buildings next door in Kerrytown to demolish for parking?

How about Royal Oak?

Actually yes to all of these. The parking lots in Royal Oak, Grosse Pointe, and Rochester used to be occupied with buildings. Especially the parking lots behind the main street streetwall. It's also the same reason why in Downtown Detroit as well as Downtown Ann Arbor, buildings are demolished for huge parking garages.

Parking is a prerequisite for development, period. Not just retail. And whether it takes the form of a lot or garage just depends on whether the area is expecting growth.

People use cars and cars take up space. If people aren't using cars, then there's no need for parking. Population decline just makes it a little bit easier if the buildings are unoccupied, but actually, population growth means a higher demand for parking and eventually you have to put it somewhere. There's no where in Metro Detroit where whole buildings and blocks haven't been demolished for parking.

Here's a perfect example of Dearborn demolishing whole blocks for their strips of retail. Those blocks of retail would not be able to survive if there was not any parking.

Attachment 23860

Attachment 23859

**Junjie** · July-01-14, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

...

Here's a perfect example of Dearborn demolishing whole blocks for their strips of retail. Those blocks of retail would not be able to survive if there was not any parking.

Can you be more specific about your claim that parking is necessary for development? Otherwise, how did the retail strip in picture A come into existence prior to the parking being constructed in picture B?

**animatedmartian** · July-02-14, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Junjie

Can you be more specific about your claim that parking is necessary for development? Otherwise, how did the retail strip in picture A come into existence prior to the parking being constructed in picture B?

Mass transit. There used a time when less of the population used cars to get around. Not as much need for parking because not as many cars were on the road. People could still access the business by walking from the nearest streetcar station which usually was at the intersection of the main streets even when the streets were full to capacity of parked cars.

Modern day Detroit is completely different where +90% of the metro population travels by car, meaning more people are going to arrive some place by car.

Have you ever seen how many people show up to a Tiger's game by car? Imagine if there were no parking lots or parking garages around it and how many streets would be filled with parked cars along the side and how far people would have to park and then walk to the stadium. Then multiply that for every store and business that has any number of people arriving by car throughout the day or any apartments where 100s of people live in a single building and each person has a car. Where do you expect all those cars to go?!

**Junjie** · July-02-14, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Mass transit. There used a time when less of the population used cars to get around. Not as much need for parking because not as many cars were on the road. People could still access the business by walking from the nearest streetcar station which usually was at the intersection of the main streets even when the streets were full to capacity of parked cars.

Modern day Detroit is completely different where +90% of the metro population travels by car, meaning more people are going to arrive some place by car.

Have you ever seen how many people show up to a Tiger's game by car? Imagine if there were no parking lots or parking garages around it and how many streets would be filled with parked cars along the side and how far people would have to park and then walk to the stadium. Then multiply that for every store and business that has any number of people arriving by car throughout the day or any apartments where 100s of people live in a single building and each person has a car. Where do you expect all those cars to go?!

Right, if the assumption is that everyone needs to drive their own car, then we need to tear down lots of the places they were originally supposed to shop/live/work in order to build parking for the remaining buildings. This is obviously the case in present-day Detroit but wasn't always. We're on the same page, I just wasn't sure how far you were taking the parking point.

This link seems relevant. Alternative to the above dilemma - cars take up lots of space, but successful and busy places require lots of people - exist.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/23318/as-arlington-booms-traffic-drops/

**Bham1982** · July-02-14, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Junjie

Can you be more specific about your claim that parking is necessary for development? Otherwise, how did the retail strip in picture A come into existence prior to the parking being constructed in picture B?

Beacuse that retail strip was built more than 100 years ago, prior to the explosion of automobile ownership. Obviously no one built for cars when there were no cars.

**nain rouge** · July-02-14, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by wolverine

Cities DO nitpick. Properties go through comprehensive reviews everyday. Cities modify zoning ordinances to meet changing needs while maintaining character, safe and clean environments. If Detroit is going to accept this type of development....well that's tragic.

Yes, but how you expect a city with Detroit's population loss to aggressively maintain its urban form is beyond me. From just 2000 to 2010, most neighborhoods along Vernor experienced over a 10% population drop. Only the stretch near Grand Boulevard and traditional Mexicantown gained people, strangely enough.

As the population and density of the area continues to drop, it's only natural for the commercial density to drop, too. Less density in the immediate area also means that - yes - the customer bases of remaining businesses will tend to be farther flung, necessitating more parking. Believe it or not, the spots on Vernor in front of the popular establishments tend to fill up.

Parking for Duly's and Colombo's gets packed some nights, for example. And though you or I know we can just drive around the corner or drive down a block or two, you can bet that there are customers "complaining". That's America for you.

Like I said, the only way for Detroit to save "its" urban form is for all of us to move in, post haste. People shape the city, really, not the government.