Benson asleep at the wheel

[cla1945]

Kudos on being a Firefighter. Thanks for your service. I know of what you are talking about though I never had shots fired at me.

i hope you never do either. Stay safe.

[FlyOnTheWall]

i hope you never do either. Stay safe.

I think I'm past that these days. Retired 20 years ago.

[Honky Tonk]

Yes, you are right about that jt, and you take great pleasure in saying that don't you?

I wonder if during my years of running into fires to search for victims, I may have done some good for you or your family? Or maybe you were the one who ran past me with the flames licking your behind while your kids were still asleep. No, maybe you were the one shooting at me and my brothers when we were fighting a fire that left children without a home. Hummm, I wonder if you were the one practically licking my boots with gratitude when I gave your dog mouth to mouth...we'll never know the answers to those questions will we jt.

I never expected thank yous for doing the job I loved, the only thing I expected was for Detroit to live up to its end of the bargain it struck up with me and thousands of others who worked as firefighters, police officers, and DPW sanitation workers. Gloat all you want jt, it doesn't phase me in the least...I know what I did for Detroit...what have you done?

Thanx cla for your years of dedicated service. I hope the powers that be sign the agreement quickly so that you take the smallest hit possible.

[cla1945]

Thanx cla for your years of dedicated service. I hope the powers that be sign the agreement quickly so that you take the smallest hit possible.

Thanks Honky Tonk, that means a lot to me.

[jt1]

I wonder if during my years of running into fires to search for victims, I may have done some good for you or your family? Or maybe you were the one who ran past me with the flames licking your behind while your kids were still asleep. No, maybe you were the one shooting at me and my brothers when we were fighting a fire that left children without a home. Hummm, I wonder if you were the one practically licking my boots with gratitude when I gave your dog mouth to mouth...we'll never know the answers to those questions will we jt.

I never expected thank yous for doing the job I loved, the only thing I expected was for Detroit to live up to its end of the bargain it struck up with me and thousands of others who worked as firefighters, police officers, and DPW sanitation workers. Gloat all you want jt, it doesn't phase me in the least...I know what I did for Detroit...what have you done?

Let me be clear about a couple things:

1. As I have said many times in the past, I have a great deal of respect for firefighters, police officers and military. You claim you don't want credit for your service but you certainly enjoy bringing it up
2. I have little respect for your pissy, condescending attitude towards the city and residents of Detroit. Your, "Pay me my money and piss off" schtick is tired.
3. I work in the private sector [[since I knew pensions would not be sustainable) however I volunteer at a number of non-profits in the city with my time and dollars. Would you like a list?
4. As for "what is owed": Where do you think the money should come from? Should we eliminate all services in the city? Should we increase the mill rate to 100 and further chase people out of the city?
5. In a perfect world I would love to see pensions honored however I would also like to honor supplying basic city services to residents that pay taxes. It appears you believe the retirees should get everything promised and the citizens get nothing but higher taxes.

Clear enough for you?

[compn]

didnt someone on the forum have a hunch that another council person would be caught up in the police ? maybe the prediction was off 2-3 months.

[cla1945]

Let me be clear about a couple things:

1. As I have said many times in the past, I have a great deal of respect for firefighters, police officers and military. You claim you don't want credit for your service but you certainly enjoy bringing it up
2. I have little respect for your pissy, condescending attitude towards the city and residents of Detroit. Your, "Pay me my money and piss off" schtick is tired.
3. I work in the private sector [[since I knew pensions would not be sustainable) however I volunteer at a number of non-profits in the city with my time and dollars. Would you like a list?
4. As for "what is owed": Where do you think the money should come from? Should we eliminate all services in the city? Should we increase the mill rate to 100 and further chase people out of the city?
5. In a perfect world I would love to see pensions honored however I would also like to honor supplying basic city services to residents that pay taxes. It appears you believe the retirees should get everything promised and the citizens get nothing but higher taxes.

Clear enough for you?

As usual jt, you got it all wrong. No need to discuss this any further...you have your ideals and beliefs and I have mine. All is good and I wish you well in the private sector. You are very fortunate to have had that crystal ball to know that pensions would not be sustainable. Perhaps had you been 20 years old back in the day, hired into a City of Detroit job that promised a pension, and promised healthcare, you may have hired in there. Many of us "knew" that the private sector jobs were better paying, and we also knew that we wouldn't be paid as much but the job was steady and reliable and that we would be better off at retirement age. Well, much to your pleasure, that has changed significantly hasn't it. No one that I know of asked the City to provide these benefits or demanded them. We worked [[all of us) very hard, long hours, holidays, week ends, and some gave much more than I did to Detroit, some gave their lives, some gave their bodies....and we all expected to at least have our pension upon retirement.

But I digress. You take care now, ya hear.

[jt1]

As usual jt, you got it all wrong. No need to discuss this any further...you have your ideals and beliefs and I have mine. All is good and I wish you well in the private sector. You are very fortunate to have had that crystal ball to know that pensions would not be sustainable. Perhaps had you been 20 years old back in the day, hired into a City of Detroit job that promised a pension, and promised healthcare, you may have hired in there. Many of us "knew" that the private sector jobs were better paying, and we also knew that we wouldn't be paid as much but the job was steady and reliable and that we would be better off at retirement age. Well, much to your pleasure, that has changed significantly hasn't it. No one that I know of asked the City to provide these benefits or demanded them. We worked [[all of us) very hard, long hours, holidays, week ends, and some gave much more than I did to Detroit, some gave their lives, some gave their bodies....and we all expected to at least have our pension upon retirement.

But I digress. You take care now, ya hear.

Now we're getting somewhere. I wish that the pension and healthcare commitments could be honored however the options are [[1) share the pain or [[2) cut all services in the city and pay as much to retirees until the last person leaves the city then just end all benefits.

As for a crystal ball, anyone as far back as the 80s should have clearly seen that the pensions and healthcare commitments weren't sustainable. I hope the PoA makes enough difference where the city may reduce the cuts to retirees and get closer to honoring the commitments but, if we continue to reduce services there will be no businesses or residents left to pay taxes.

[Scottathew]

Which is not to say that two wrongs make a right, right?

But I find it very interesting that people are calling for a man's head when they [[a) don't know the facts of the case, [[b) the man hasn't had his day in court, [[c) and another, much more prominent politician has had frequent instances of driving in various states of intoxication and he's considered a county hero.

Sounds to me like his driving isn't the issue here ...

[[A) We know the preliminary facts, which are rather damning.

[[B) This is not a court of law. Our discussions don't involve someone going to jail. The burden of proof on this forum is not that of a criminal court that can sentence people to fines and jail

[[C) A valid point. It doesn't lessen the stupidity or accountability, but it does raise the issue of our representatives not having the moral character that they ought to have

[Honky Tonk]

Wasn't LB being chauffered the last time they were in a car wreck? Drunk or not, he wasn't behind the wheel.

[Scottathew]

Wasn't LB being chauffered the last time they were in a car wreck? Drunk or not, he wasn't behind the wheel.

He was NOT behind the wheel in the most recent incident. LBP was not wearing his seatbelt.

I hate it when government officials are chauffeured around like they're movie stars paying with their own money. Mark Steenbergh, former Warren mayor had a police chauffeur. Steenbergh was rumored to be a drunk.

[Honky Tonk]

He was NOT behind the wheel in the most recent incident. LBP was not wearing his seatbelt.

I hate it when government officials are chauffeured around like they're movie stars paying with their own money. Mark Steenbergh, former Warren mayor had a police chauffeur. Steenbergh was rumored to be a drunk.

I totally agree with that statement. Now that the Detroit City Coucil has lost their DPD chauffers, you're starting to see some strange outcomes.

[TKshreve]

Let me be clear about a couple things:

1. As I have said many times in the past, I have a great deal of respect for firefighters, police officers and military. You claim you don't want credit for your service but you certainly enjoy bringing it up

Funny, appears to me you brought it up with your smug, trite and altogether unsolicited comment about his personal finances relating to his career. That - was the first mention of it. Says a lot about your "respect" for firefighters and such too.

Yes, crystal clear jt.

[Lowell]

Then Orr should take action since he's in charge now. Someone, anyone, should address Cushingberry and Benson. But, unless the people demand action, I guess not much will be done...this is all accepted behavior from politicians throughout "metro Detroit".

As others have noted this is an issue for the courts. Orr has no more jurisdiction that Duggan does. I do wish there was an additional level of punishment for public officials. Their misbehavior is more than an individual offense. It damages the public institutions they 'serve', lowers respect for law, and smears others in office who are trying to do the right thing.

And you'll be missing part of your pension check in the not too distant future. Is that better?

Cheap shot jt1. The guy did his job, a dangerous one at that, and earned his pension.

[jt1]

Cheap shot jt1. The guy did his job, a dangerous one at that, and earned his pension.

Cheap shot? yes. Earned the pension? Yes. Now for the tricky thing nobody wants to address: Where does the money come from. The options are:

1. Increase taxes which results in even more lost business and population which eventually results in no money for pensions.
2. Cut current services even more so that even more than 40+ cents on every dollar goes to legacy costs. Same result as [[1).
3. Further reduce pay and strip all benefits of current employees. Good luck keeping any DPD and DFD if they take an even bigger hit. What they are paid and the benefit cuts is criminal but retirees don't seem to want to consider that.

People keep saying that promises should be met however nobody is showing up with the seeds for the magic money trees that will solve it all.

I'm all for hearing solutions. Just saying" A promise must be kept" isn't a solution.

[jt1]

Funny, appears to me you brought it up with your smug, trite and altogether unsolicited comment about his personal finances relating to his career. That - was the first mention of it. Says a lot about your "respect" for firefighters and such too.

Yes, crystal clear jt.

There is more history with CLA which is why my second point was that I do not respect him which is based upon his history here.

Your argument is equivalent to saying all DPD officers are heroes without considering the actions/words of the individuals. Certainly, the majority of DPD officers bust their butt in a dangerous, underpaid, under-appreciated job however some of them are just assholes that don't care. It is likely a small minority. My first point addressed the profession, my second point addressed the person.

So, in a simple summary: I respect police, firefighters and military professions however I don't proclaim that I respect the actions and words of everyone in those fields.

Crystal clear enough?

[jt1]

He was NOT behind the wheel in the most recent incident. LBP was not wearing his seatbelt.

I hate it when government officials are chauffeured around like they're movie stars paying with their own money. Mark Steenbergh, former Warren mayor had a police chauffeur. Steenbergh was rumored to be a drunk.

Steenbergh being a drunk was a fact, not a rumor.
You are correct, the most recent incident he was not driving however MSP have chauffered his drunk, pill poppin' behind home before and there was little condemnation of him and certainly no call to remove him from office.

[Honky Tonk]

Steenbergh being a drunk was a fact, not a rumor.
You are correct, the most recent incident he was not driving however MSP have chauffered his drunk, pill poppin' behind home before and there was little condemnation of him and certainly no call to remove him from office.

Quite honestly, I don't really give a rat's a$$ what Steenbergh or LB do. I don't live in Warren, or Oakland County. I am concerned about the calibur of the individual I'm paying in my home town, what they're doing with my money, and their behavior. I think Ficano should have been locked up, and I can't believe he has the stones to actually run again.

[Smirnoff]

Quite honestly, I don't really give a rat's a$$ what Steenbergh or LB do. I don't live in Warren, or Oakland County. I am concerned about the calibur of the individual I'm paying in my home town, what they're doing with my money, and their behavior. I think Ficano should have been locked up, and I can't believe he has the stones to actually run again.

He is still under investigation by the Feds......not over yet.

[jt1]

Quite honestly, I don't really give a rat's a$$ what Steenbergh or LB do. I don't live in Warren, or Oakland County. I am concerned about the calibur of the individual I'm paying in my home town, what they're doing with my money, and their behavior. I think Ficano should have been locked up, and I can't believe he has the stones to actually run again.

Good points. How Ficano remains a free man is amazing. The teflon county exec?

[cla1945]

There is more history with CLA which is why my second point was that I do not respect him which is based upon his history here.

Your argument is equivalent to saying all DPD officers are heroes without considering the actions/words of the individuals. Certainly, the majority of DPD officers bust their butt in a dangerous, underpaid, under-appreciated job however some of them are just assholes that don't care. It is likely a small minority. My first point addressed the profession, my second point addressed the person.

So, in a simple summary: I respect police, firefighters and military professions however I don't proclaim that I respect the actions and words of everyone in those fields.

Crystal clear enough?

jt...one of your biggest assertions is that I have personally disrespected the citizens of Detroit, and that I whine about just wanting my pension and the hell with Detroit taxpayers. I would appreciate it if you would please find a remark I made saying that on this forum and find anything where I have made disparaging remarks regarding the "I don't care about Detroiters, just give me my pension" attitude. If you do find it, please repost it; I will definitely apologize if I did because that is the farthest thing from truth that I've read on this forum from you. What I will say is that I have no respect for the politicians, cronies, family, friends, and the pay to play mentality that Detroit has had in the past that has certainly caused much of the problems we are facing today. Also, for your information, you should know that all new hires in the DPD will be receiving a pension when they retire. Detroit is still offering it, although the employees will be paying a larger contribution to it and the City will also contribute money. So, in the long run, taxes will probably go up for Detroiters at some time or another. However, one major problem with Detroit has been that they haven't been collecting taxes, haven't been going after people who are not paying for water, parking infractions, warrents, etc. Maybe if Detroit got on the stick and started doing what they were supposed to do, some of this catastrophe wouldn't have happened. Just sayin'.

Yes, we do have a history because with everything I have ever said you have come back with some sort of sarcastic remark with your know it all attitude. Also, wasn't it you who made some remark about House Speaker Jace Bolger that everyone on this forum found offensive? But, since you're right about everything, including all your whiny accusations about me, you're excused, right?? Anyway, just goes to show you that when you cast stones, it may come back to haunt you.

[Eber Brock Ward]

cla, to try and play mediator, I think this may be what jt1 is trying to say:

right now, the city of detroit is like a family that only has $1.00 to its name. and the city of detroit owes 50 cents each to retirees and bondholders, and it costs 75 cents to run the city and provide police, streetlights, etc.

even if we gave the bondholders zero dollars and cents, we'd still owe the retirees 50 cents and need 75 cents to run the city, meaning we have $1.25 that we owe, and only a buck on hand hand. if the retirees get paid their full 50 cent pension, then the citizens [[who have been getting screwed for generations) get screwed out of 25 cents. if we run the city to the full 75 cents, then the pensioners only get 25 of the 50 cents they're owed.

and that's even with taking the bondholders and others out!

but the point is, if i'm gathering it correctly from jt1, is that it's a simple math issue. EVERY SINGLE DOLLAR that goes to a bondholder or pensioner is another dollar that's not going to lights, police, etc. now those numbers above are simple, but every bondholder and pensioner needs to understand that every dollar they get in the plan of adjustment, they're taking away from someone else, whether it was promised in bond documents or pension documents.

[Eber Brock Ward]

so to follow up, as a resident, i certainly do feel disrespected by bondholders and pensioners and bond insurers that insist on being made whole.

they've been getting made whole every day since the bonds were issued and the pension plans put into place, but have city residents been kept whole when it comes to lights, police, fire, ems, and so on?

obviously, residents have been getting far less than 100% for a long time, while bondholders and pensioners got 100%. that's not fair, and that's why i feel disrespected by AFSCME, syncora, and all of them.

[cla1945]

Eber Brock Ward...I hear you. I and all of the retirees understand the situation as it is today. Let's face it, we're all getting screwed. Detroit government has screwed the taxpayers and the workers for years by their own lack of integrity, know how, and with a whole lot of corruption. The city gives tax breaks to those who live large on the backs of parishioners, doesn't collect taxes at all from some, won't go after those whose water bills are huge, and shows a lack of interest in ever helping the city until it got to this point. Had they been more diligent in that effort perhaps Detroit wouldn't be in the dire straits it's in today.

I understand the concept that there isn't this big cornucopia of cash sitting around to pay retirees and provide the services you need. I lived it when I worked there, lived there, prayed there, paid my taxes every year there and was educated there. We gave up many things while employed for Detroit. Money being the biggest....in place of more money, Detroit made certain contractural promises to all of us and now, after devoting my entire working career [[over 30 years), Detroit says f$@& you...we're going to take your healthcare when you're most vulnerable, we're going to cut your pension, [[I still have bills and I do pay them), and more or less thrown you to the wolves. It's not that we want Detroit to suffer because we want what we worked to get, but that's how it sounds to people like jt. All of us retirees could have gone into the private sector and made enough money to set aside a nest egg to keep us in laxatives and aspercreme until we died, but the city offered a promise to come work for them and they would make sure you retain your healthcare and we'll give you a small pension.

Don't feel disrespected by retirees Eber, we're not the ones who created this mess. Feel disrespected by all of those who have been in charge of Detroit for the last few years. Feel disrespected by the thieves who raped and pillaged Detroit until it fell apart. Feel disrespected by
people like Kwame, Miller, Ferguson, Godbee, building inspectors, pension fund trustees like Zajac, Detroit Human Services Department, Conyers, John Clark...need I go on because I could.

Your analogy is understandable, but your looking at the wrong people to blame, as are other Detroiters.

Incidentally, thank you for trying the mediation, much appreciated.