Basketball Courts on Cadillac Square?

**Lowell** · June-30-14, 07:59 AM

The south side of Cadillac Square has a new coat of blacktop and it appears that four quarter basketball courts are lined out. Anybody know what that is about?

As this stretch is frequently shut off for some event, it makes me wonder if might be made a permanent pedestrian mall. It doesn't seem that important for traffic movement so it a bit of an asphalt desert. The northside is not used that much either. Maybe make it all park?

More Downtown Pictures:

**southen** · June-30-14, 08:59 AM

eeeeek not a fan. i use that stretch of road all of the time. couldnt he have used the parking lot at the bottom of the screen there that he owns? still not sure how i feel about turning cadillac square into a pedestrian mall either. how bout we revisit the idea when monroe block is booming and some of the other lots in that area are redeveloped.

**animatedmartian** · June-30-14, 09:20 AM

It's apart of Dan Gilbert's "placemaking" which essentially makes it a park/market area. The eventual plan is to have it looking like this at some point in the future.

http://photos.mlive.com/mlivecom_pho...ess_leade.html

Originally, the street in front of the National Building was going to be a place for outdoor restaurant seating [[Papa Joe's), and the basketball courts would have gone on the parking lots on the other side of Cadillac Square, but since the Papa Joe's extension hasn't seemed to work out and there is a potential development coming for the parking lots on the other side [[Meridian Health tower), it seems the basketball courts were moved to where the outdoor seating would have been. But either way, that stretch of road is/will be permanently closed if things go to plan.

**bassab** · June-30-14, 09:50 AM

Received this notice from our building the other day:

"Please be advised that from Monday June 30th through Tuesday September 30th the westbound leg of Cadillac Square [[in front of Cadillac Tower) between Bates & Campus Martius will be converted to 2-way traffic and the eastbound leg [[in front of the First National Building) will be closed to allow for expanded event offerings.

No parking will be allowed along the inner curb lane so that 2-way traffic can be maintained.

This notification was issued by the City of Detroit Engineering Division on behalf of the 300 Conservancy that is working with the Downtown Detroit Partnership [[DDP)."

**Spartan** · June-30-14, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by bassab

Received this notice from our building the other day:

"Please be advised that from Monday June 30th through Tuesday September 30th the westbound leg of Cadillac Square [[in front of Cadillac Tower) between Bates & Campus Martius will be converted to 2-way traffic and the eastbound leg [[in front of the First National Building) will be closed to allow for expanded event offerings.

No parking will be allowed along the inner curb lane so that 2-way traffic can be maintained.

This notification was issued by the City of Detroit Engineering Division on behalf of the 300 Conservancy that is working with the Downtown Detroit Partnership [[DDP)."

They really should just close Cadillac Square from Campus Martius to Bates permanently. Maybe even all the way to Randolph. It's a great area for events and park activities, and the street is relatively superfluous.

**stinkytofu** · June-30-14, 10:46 AM

By the way - with Papa Joe's now out of the equation it seems like only a matter of time before another company will snatch up that spot. Such a great location with a lot of foot traffic [[especially in summer).

**Mackinaw** · June-30-14, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

They really should just close Cadillac Square from Campus Martius to Bates permanently. Maybe even all the way to Randolph. It's a great area for events and park activities, and the street is relatively superfluous.

Disagreed. Traffic flow is still important and an element of the urban atmosphere. I can count on one hand the amount of closed streets I have ever seen in all of Manhattan. The thought is good, but it's not a well-tailored solution in most circumstances. Narrowing streets and making complete streets is better.

Here, the problem is Cadillac Square's huge footprint. It was surely meant to evoke the wide avenues of Paris-- all good. But that doesn't mean it should all be used for cars.

The present solution, with two-way traffic on the north side of the square, is best. It balances traffic flow and the improved use of the wide space. It reminds me a lot of the pedestrians-only pockets of Broadway in NYC, though, honestly, more fun and creative. It also means less for the City to plow and salt in the winter, and more land in the hands of the downtown private-public partnership conservancy thingy. Perhaps the only practical thing I lament losing is the parking spaces along Cadillac Sq.

What I really look forward to is the development of all of the remaining surface lots along Cadillac and Monroe.

**Detroitnerd** · June-30-14, 11:32 AM

I don't think people would be as upset about this blocking-off if it were something other than basketball hoops. Perhaps a gimmicky Skee-Ball trailer offering hipster mustaches as prizes? A few tables selling Ed Hardy gear? A pop-up eatery selling $10 sandwiches with no decimal places? I'm just dreaming here ...

**Spartan** · June-30-14, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mackinaw

Disagreed. Traffic flow is still important and an element of the urban atmosphere. I can count on one hand the amount of closed streets I have ever seen in all of Manhattan. The thought is good, but it's not a well-tailored solution in most circumstances. Narrowing streets and making complete streets is better.

I agree that traffic flow is important, I just don't think that road is very useful. Monroe, Farmer, Congress all provide avenues for travel in the same areas. I think closing the one side is also a good solution, but I like the idea of having somewhere for pedestrians to be able to wander. Of course, putting up more things along the Square would make it more useful in that scenario. Right now there's not really anything there unless an event is going on.

**bailey** · June-30-14, 01:59 PM

So, when the Cottons get a plan through that constricts traffic flow through a tiny part of suburban street to make a more walkable pedestrian friendly area with semi permanent kiosks for farmers market and other things, that's modern day apartheid. But DG's long term plan is to shut down a large swath of the center of the CBD, put it under private security and control [[presumably without compensating the city) , and install a playground and semi permanent kiosks primarily for his employees and his building's tenants thereby increasing the value of his properties, the response is to do cartwheels?

**royce** · June-30-14, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

They really should just close Cadillac Square from Campus Martius to Bates permanently. Maybe even all the way to Randolph. It's a great area for events and park activities, and the street is relatively superfluous.

I strongly disagree. There are businesses and an apartment building on the street. Access to those entities should be maintained. Closing the south lane is fine as long as there is two-way traffic on the northern side of Cadillac Square Park. Eventhough it's not a busy street, the northern road way and the roadways east of the park need to remain open. Not only for the reasons that I mentioned earlier, but also because busy areas need drop off points for people to get to them easily and to see what's going on. If they can't see the activities from a distance, then they don't know what's going on. You want not only pedestrians and bicyclists to notice an area, but you want people in vehicles to notice them too. Have we not learned from the debacle known as the "Washington Boulevard pedestrian mall?

**DetroitPlanner** · July-01-14, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by royce

You want not only pedestrians and bicyclists to notice an area, but you want people in vehicles to notice them too. Have we not learned from the debacle known as the "Washington Boulevard pedestrian mall?

LOL Looking out my window I was thinking the same thing and wondering when the red tinkertoys and lightshow were going to be erected. Alex Pollock is in his glory!

**nain rouge** · July-01-14, 07:41 AM

LOL Looking out my window I was thinking the same thing and wondering when the red tinkertoys and lightshow were going to be erected. Alex Pollock is in his glory!

I know, what is it with urban planners and plazas? How many times do such places have to suck for them realize that plazas aren't the glorious model of urbanism they once assumed.

**stinkytofu** · June-30-14, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by bassab

Received this notice from our building the other day:

"Please be advised that from Monday June 30^th through Tuesday September 30^th the westbound leg of Cadillac Square [[in front of Cadillac Tower) between Bates & Campus Martius will be converted to 2-way traffic and the eastbound leg [[in front of the First National Building) will be closed to allow for expanded event offerings.

No parking will be allowed along the inner curb lane so that 2-way traffic can be maintained.

This notification was issued by the City of Detroit Engineering Division on behalf of the 300 Conservancy that is working with the Downtown Detroit Partnership [[DDP)."

I'm fully on board with this. What was formerly westbound Cadillac Square being converted to two-way instead of one-way seems to be an easy, logical fix. I don't think traffic will be horrible in that stretch and this is a great way to continue to encourage foot traffic/activities around the park. It's been fun watching that area evolve over the last few years. It's really a tremendous asset to the city.

**gumby** · June-30-14, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

I'm fully on board with this. What was formerly westbound Cadillac Square being converted to two-way instead of one-way seems to be an easy, logical fix. I don't think traffic will be horrible in that stretch and this is a great way to continue to encourage foot traffic/activities around the park. It's been fun watching that area evolve over the last few years. It's really a tremendous asset to the city.

How well did something like this work out for Washington Blvd. with the Monkey Bars. How quick we are to ignore past failures.

**animatedmartian** · June-30-14, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

How well did something like this work out for Washington Blvd. with the Monkey Bars. How quick we are to ignore past failures.

Washington Blvd has/had no focal point. There's nothing at which draws people in by itself. With the previous plaza setup, the trolley was pretty much the main draw but once that was gone it was just another brick plaza. I actually liked the monkey bar set up but the current grassy median is a much more classic setup.

With Cadillac Square and the adjacent Campus Martius generate a lot more foot traffic on their own mostly because more events are routinely held there and it is a central gathering place during business lunch times.

**313rd** · June-30-14, 03:06 PM

Eastbound traffic must remain open. If it means changing the northside of the park into two-way so be it. But long term this needs to be left open for vehicular traffic.

What is your best option if traveling down Michigan Avenue to continue East?

**animatedmartian** · June-30-14, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by 313rd

Eastbound traffic must remain open. If it means changing the northside of the park into two-way so be it. But long term this needs to be left open for vehicular traffic.

What is your best option if traveling down Michigan Avenue to continue East?

You can't. Michigan Avenue ends at Woodward. At which point you have to make a right and travel south.

**Dexlin** · June-30-14, 09:41 PM

I'd be fine with either keeping the north lanes open or closing the whole thing off. We're talking about a single block just off what has become the pedestrian heart of downtown. This is not a major thoroughfare, and we're not talking about the failed multi-block pedestrian malls; this are not the same thing. When the streetcar is brought through, this will make even more since. This whole area of downtown is slowly benefitting from this re-imagination of the district. You'd think by some of these responses that they were blocking off Lower Woodward.

**nain rouge** · July-01-14, 10:22 AM

Campus Martius is fine, but how many plazas do we need? Though I don't know of any studies on the subject, I'd have to believe that there is an ideal population density to plaza ratio, and that downtown Detroit has far exceeded it. Campus Martius, Cadillac Square, Capitol Park, Hart Plaza. When is enough enough?

And fine, they don't abuse concrete as much as they used to. But I think aesthetics are only marginally better.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-01-14, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Campus Martius is fine, but how many plazas do we need? Though I don't know of any studies on the subject, I'd have to believe that there is an ideal population density to plaza ratio, and that downtown Detroit has far exceeded it. Campus Martius, Cadillac Square, Capitol Park, Hart Plaza. When is enough enough?

And fine, they don't abuse concrete as much as they used to. But I think aesthetics are only marginally better.

Yeah what we need are more at grade parking lots instead! Great idea. I will tell the boss.

Aesthetics don't mean a thing unless you can generate some kind of activity there. Otherwise it might as well be a cornfield. At least that is useful.

You might want to consult the works of Roberta Gratz, William H Whyte, and a book called 'The Great Third Place" [[can't recall the author). They provide great insight in how humans interact with space. Even the originator of the mall, Victor Gruen, has written on this topic. He had to research this for Kalamazoo, Houston, and Rochester NY.

**bailey** · July-01-14, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Yeah what we need are more at grade parking lots instead! Great idea. I will tell the boss.

Maybe the problem with detroit is that is the only alternative? vacant lots/space can either be a park or a parking lot..

**stasu1213** · July-01-14, 10:30 PM

Cadillac Square would make a good pedestrian mall. The street doesn't run a long way but only a block or two. I had felt that the skating rink should had been in Cadillac Square years ago. I like Gilbert's idea of making it multipurpose. I am wondering how would Woodward look from Campus Martius to Adam. Will it have a semi open mall look saving the train that would run through that part. Would DDOT have it's stops replace on the part or will the stops be north of Adam? Washing Blvd pedestrian mall was a failure for it was way ahead of it's time. Businesses were closing on the blvd as well as Woodward after Hudson's closed. I see that Subway sandwich shop and the hosiery shop had relocated to the back of the First National Bldg. Does anyone has insight to what is going to go in those spots. I know that Papa Joes had opted out.