So...M1 Officially Having Money Issues Now...

[professorscott]

Taking the money from the Blight Rail, investing it to seriously brace up the bus system, to me, would really be a step in the right direction.

The problem with this is the assumption that the people who are willing to spend huge sums of money on the streetcar [[which they are) would be willing to spend the same amount of money to shore up bus service [[which they are not). It's not a bucket of public money that can be moved around and used for whatever you like. Even if it were mostly Federal money - which it mostly isn't - capital project funds can't be used for operations.

Whether it eventually goes beyond the initial few miles depends on quite a few different things coming together. Just for one: has Mr. Ford actually accepted the RTA position yet?

[mwilbert]

A reliable, safe bus system is still not mass transit.

A bus system is considered mass transit. What it is not is rapid transit. Unfortunately, the M-1 won't be rapid either. Which would be more of a problem if it were going more than 3 miles.

Taking the money from the Blight Rail, investing it to seriously brace up the bus system, to me, would really be a step in the right direction.

Except, of course that the money isn't fungible, so even if this were a good idea, which is arguable, it isn't a feasible idea.

Has Detroit paid off the People Remover yet?

Since the bonds had to have been issued before 1984, I'd say basically yes. Of course, given that the city has done all kinds of weird financing subsequently, I suppose you could claim that any particular piece of spending had been rolled over.

[wolverine]

Where did you get that number from? $200 million to overhaul one station? Which Station is this? Oglive? Does it include the tower too, and all of the track? The I-96 reconstruction is half that including 8 miles of pavement and about 40 bridges, all taken out, reshaped and put back in brand new.

My sources:
It's a red line EL station on the Northside. The scope of work is reconstruction of immediate approaches to the station, platforms, station entrances, elevators and escalators and new track support structure.
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20140...nts-compromise

[Steve203]

they will have spent several billion dollars in design, land acquisition, and legal fees for something that doesn't have a future;

That seems to be a trend in government contracts these days. So many programs never result in anything being deployed, just millions burned in "planning" and "consulting" An Air Force fighter used to go from drawing board to deployment in 5-6 years. The F-35, if it stays on schedule, will have been in "development" for 20 years.

As for the M1, never made sense to me. It still has to stop for traffic lights, just like a bus. It takes up more road right of way than a bus. It costs a lot more to build than a bus. Why not just use the money to replace and maintain the busses?

My personal preference is a monorail. Yes, I hear the snickering, but Seattle's monorail is still running 52 years after it was built, and, among other things, shuttles downtown workers from the fairgrounds, where there is parking available. A monorail doesn't have to stop for traffic lights, like a trolley, and it doesn't take up as much road surface. I rode the Seattle monorail in 94 and all I could think was "why doesn't every city have this?"

[Detroit Stylin]

"As for the M1, never made sense to me. It still has to stop for traffic lights, just like a bus. It takes up more road right of way than a bus. It costs a lot more to build than a bus. Why not just use the money to replace and maintain the busses?
"

Actually it had signal priority which means that it wouldn't "stop for lights just like a bus". But you like monorails so.....yeah......

[Steve203]

Actually it had signal priority which means that it wouldn't "stop for lights just like a bus".

I didn't know that. Thanks

But you like monorails so

Guilty as charged.

[erikd]

That is totally accurate. They have the money to build it, but obviously, they'd like more "free money" if they can get it. This really isn't news; most not-for-profits apply for all sorts of government money, and they put forward sob stories and press releases in an attempt to get it. I am 100% in favor of the project, and plan to use. But I don't care if they get this grant. It's coming anyways.

What "free money" are you talking about? It's not "free money." We give the federal government a significant portion of our income for the express purpose of funding public programs and infrastructure, specifically things like public transit.

[chicagoforlife]

Where did you get that number from? $200 million to overhaul one station? Which Station is this? Oglive? Does it include the tower too, and all of the track? The I-96 reconstruction is half that including 8 miles of pavement and about 40 bridges, all taken out, reshaped and put back in brand new.

Oglive isn't a CTA station it only serves METRA trains. I'm not sure which station he's talking about because they just came out with $203 million for the Wilson Red Line station and $240 million for the 95th Street station also on the Red Line. So I'm sure it's one of these two stations. The CTA also has the Red Line extension which is going to cost about $2 billion. Then there's the Blue Line project that's costing almost $500 million.

[chicagoforlife]

My sources:
It's a red line EL station on the Northside. The scope of work is reconstruction of immediate approaches to the station, platforms, station entrances, elevators and escalators and new track support structure.
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20140...nts-compromise

My last post I was wondering which station it was, it's Wilson, it's the first station after the S curve at Sheridan going north.

[That Great Guy]

Sell this for one dollar and let it pay for itself. The same for SMART and DDOT

Funding for these dinosaur public transit systems who don't understand the use of computers to increase user fees from passengers can be made very simple, if we as registered voters don't get a full account of OUR very limited transportation tax dollars.

Vote NO next August 5, 2014

Then we will see how the concept of NO Gas, NO Cash, then NO Ride works.

I will be stranded because I rely on SMART but then the real TRUth will come out about the MASSive cuts from our leaders. They need to go or come out of the closet and face the real issues that people need real jobs and real public transit and not more scare tactics, promises, hype, false propagandas, bus service reductions, freeway expansions without electronic tolls,

And more 8 buck an hour, NO benefits, 30 hour per week Wally Market and Mc Duck Jobs.

[Detroit500]

It is truly bizarre to me the sudden opposition people have developed to this project, in hopes that they could have a more fanciful project. In this era of public spending austerity, it is remarkable that such a project is being considered at all. Now we are in striking distance of making this a reality, and suddenly people wish to create SEMCOG pipe dreams that never were based in any sort of funding reality. Let this first, albeit small step begin, and let's see what develops from there.

As as far as the complaint that all it does is carry people from one high density part of town to another, why is that possibly a problem? How wonderful for someone who works and parks their car in one part of town to not have to drive down to the stadium. For years people complained the streetcars were torn up, now we are getting one or two back, and who knows, if it's successful, maybe down the road a few more.

[wolverine]

It is truly bizarre to me the sudden opposition people have developed to this project, in hopes that they could have a more fanciful project. In this era of public spending austerity, it is remarkable that such a project is being considered at all. Now we are in striking distance of making this a reality, and suddenly people wish to create SEMCOG pipe dreams that never were based in any sort of funding reality. Let this first, albeit small step begin, and let's see what develops from there.

As as far as the complaint that all it does is carry people from one high density part of town to another, why is that possibly a problem? How wonderful for someone who works and parks their car in one part of town to not have to drive down to the stadium. For years people complained the streetcars were torn up, now we are getting one or two back, and who knows, if it's successful, maybe down the road a few more.

To sum it up, I'd say there's three groups of people on the streetcar debate. One group out-right opposes any LRT...be it expense or the desire for improved buses. They see any transit upgrade as people mover 2.0. Group 2 is in favor of LRT, but not content with the design of curbside configuration which operate in traffic much like a bus. Group 3 is in favor of the plan as is. They believe it's a reasonable plan that will prove effective and will be the first real step in better transit downtown.

My opinion is toward group 2 I used to hear a phrase alot when I worked on projects in Detroit. "Baby steps." Sheesh I hated that phrase and was shocked it was even allowed to be said in a professional atmosphere. I quickly learned working in larger cities that you'd probably get fired or at the very least a frown if you ever said that because we were to always "make no little plans." I think dreaming of a Woodward subway is a lofty dream. But a people mover extension or at least center running LRT would have been the acceptable design.

Even if Detroit gets the money and builds the current proposed version....I'm skeptical it will see any additions or upgrades in the future. I think it will offer some convenience but fall well short increasing economic development of the area. Detroit's built environment isn't conducive to slower running streetcars. You need a speed advantage to move people quickly from one higher density area to another to gain riders. I'm concerned people will walk or bike instead. Bicyclists will at least beat the streetcar by two runs over its length and people will opt to drive if they are in a hurry.

I really hope I'm wrong. But for LRT systems, success has been difficult in some places.

[e.p.3]

This is a great chance for them to walk away before they get in too deep and it costs $80M to walk away. see: Cincinnati's over budget M-1 boondoggle: http://www.wcpo.com/news/political/l...to-complete-it

[That Great Guy]

http://m-1rail.com/statement-media-r...-rail-funding/

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I don't understand Laugh Out Loud LOL ??

We don't need Federal or State money anymore The vast majority has spoken and regional funding now rules. The August 5, 2014 SMART vote will prevail and win the hearts of most of us.

A small 5 mil property tax for 5 counties would easily generate over $300 Million per year to pay for people like me who rely on SMART. An average homeowner in Dearborn where I live would only pay about $385 to 424 per year more in taxes. That is just a cup of coffee per day. For many it is worth saving SMART and the City of Detroit and inner suburbs. It means getting people to jobs.

Also, there is strong support to change the state constitution to allow a Penny tax. That is just one cent on every dollar we spend on purchases except groceries. People who can afford to eat out can certainly share some change to pay for people like me who will be on a SMART bus at 6 am this morning. A bus that is full and runs on time and is safe. This too will generate over $300 Million per year to replace aging buses and pay for operating costs.

No matter how you vote this August, SMART will not lose funding in Dearborn or anywhere else. And YES I will post my real name on this forum saying so. Why? Because I can physically prove this to everyone. Just get Lowell to post saying, come out and say who are you?

[wolverine]

This is a great chance for them to walk away before they get in too deep and it costs $80M to walk away. see: Cincinnati's over budget M-1 boondoggle: http://www.wcpo.com/news/political/l...to-complete-it

You know...the system that the citizens of Cincinnati supported in two ballots?

Don't know if you knew this, but transit systems cost money. And when politics get in the way, they can be one of the leading causes of cost overruns because time is money.

[dtowncitylover]

Here's the article from today's Free Press about the project and its delays. Reading it all out, I get what the naysayers are saying but this is too an important project to give up on. I don't agree with everything the private sponsors did to get this through but I do commend them for knowing that transit is very important to have to re-grow our urban center.

http://www.freep.com/article/20140623/BUSINESS06/306230036/M-1-Rail-Woodward-Detroit

Considering this hasn't begun, I'm not going to call it a boondoggle, it's more of a headache. It shouldn't be this hard, but that's what happens when you have a dozen entities involved.

[FlyOnTheWall]

People who can afford to eat out can certainly share some change to pay for people like me

A real example of Detroit's problems!

Let's raise fares to make the ride self sustaining?

[allhype101]

Actually it had signal priority which means that it wouldn't "stop for lights just like a bus". But you like monorails so.....yeah......

From a "fact check" section in a M-1 Rail release last week:

2. The M-1 RAIL Streetcar is not going to have a dedicated traffic light because it will operate in mixed traffic.

[drjeff]

From a "fact check" section in a M-1 Rail release last week:

A dedicated light and signal priority are not the same thing.

[professorscott]

A dedicated light and signal priority are not the same thing.

Anyway "dedicated light" is a mistype. The M1 is not going to have a dedicated lane. It is certainly going to have its own traffic signals; read the engineering documents.

[Honky Tonk]

Anyway "dedicated light" is a mistype. The M1 is not going to have a dedicated lane. It is certainly going to have its own traffic signals; read the engineering documents.

Does it come with a cowcatcher? What's it going to do when there's total gridlock, like after a Tiger game? The Blight Rail, like all the other traffic around it, won't be able to move until the path is cleared. I've sat @ an intersection for 15 minutes because cars were blocking my path from the cross street.

[softailrider]

Does it come with a cowcatcher? What's it going to do when there's total gridlock, like after a Tiger game? The Blight Rail, like all the other traffic around it, won't be able to move until the path is cleared. I've sat @ an intersection for 15 minutes because cars were blocking my path from the cross street.

Not usually in Detroit. On game days or special event days or construction only. I haven't found a lot of traffic jams in the city otherwise.

[Dexlin]

What I've found kind of odd about recent reporting is that they are still reporting this as a story of whether or not its going to be built, instead of when it's going to be built. I don't know if folks have noticed, but unlike a lot of other transit projects that never made it off the boards, there has been major utility and catch basin relocation going on for months on the downtown/CBD portion of this route. I'm sure people who have been or live downtown within the past year have seen this heavy construction work in anticipation for the project. Hell, the project's facebook page profile pick is of some of the construction work from a few months ago.

[That Great Guy]

This is a great chance for them to walk away before they get in too deep and it costs $80M to walk away. see: Cincinnati's over budget M-1 boondoggle: http://www.wcpo.com/news/political/l...to-complete-it

This August is another great chance to walk away by voting NO

The 1 Mill will again leave SMART grossly underfunded by replacing federal and state money. This tax is now a popular charity and a feel good tax

Since 1 Mill feels good then maybe 3 Mil will even feel better?

For only a cup of coffee per day, you can pay for my SMART bus ride.

[Honky Tonk]

This August is another great chance to walk away by voting NO

The 1 Mill will again leave SMART grossly underfunded by replacing federal and state money. This tax is now a popular charity and a feel good tax

Since 1 Mill feels good then maybe 3 Mil will even feel better?

For only a cup of coffee per day, you can pay for my SMART bus ride.

Eh, I'd rather have the coffee.