So...M1 Officially Having Money Issues Now...

**stinkytofu** · June-18-14, 07:25 AM

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ew-fed-funding

**stinkytofu** · June-18-14, 07:26 AM

I thought this deserved a new thread. I swear - if this thing ever gets built - its story from conception to birth could make like a 400 page epic novel.

**Dexlin** · June-18-14, 07:30 AM

Cullens wants to have it both ways. At the very worst, they are going to have to dip into their future operational funds, which become less of an obligation for them the quicker the RTA takes this over. They are planning on ten years of operations the article says when the RTA will almost certainly have operational control over the thing before then.

I hope they get the grant, but this sounds more like an engineered crisis than an actual crisis, and Matt pretty much admits as much in the article.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-18-14, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

Cullens wants to have it both ways. At the very worst, they are going to have to dip into their future operational funds, which become less of an obligation for them the quicker the RTA takes this over. They are planning on ten years of operations the article says when the RTA will almost certainly have operational control over the thing before then.

I hope they get the grant, but this sounds more like an engineered crisis than an actual crisis, and Matt pretty much admits as much in the article.

That is totally accurate. They have the money to build it, but obviously, they'd like more "free money" if they can get it. This really isn't news; most not-for-profits apply for all sorts of government money, and they put forward sob stories and press releases in an attempt to get it. I am 100% in favor of the project, and plan to use. But I don't care if they get this grant. It's coming anyways.

Regarding the story of M1 Rail being novel-worthy, I must say it is not one of the lengthier, costly, or scandalous construction projects in history. A boring book.

**corktownyuppie** · June-18-14, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

That is totally accurate. They have the money to build it, but obviously, they'd like more "free money" if they can get it. This really isn't news; most not-for-profits apply for all sorts of government money, and they put forward sob stories and press releases in an attempt to get it. I am 100% in favor of the project, and plan to use. But I don't care if they get this grant. It's coming anyways.

Regarding the story of M1 Rail being novel-worthy, I must say it is not one of the lengthier, costly, or scandalous construction projects in history. A boring book.

Yeah, the Big Dig in Boston at $14.6 Billion, billons over original budget, makes M1 Rail look like a routine shopping trip to Target.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-18-14, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Yeah, the Big Dig in Boston at $14.6 Billion, billons over original budget, makes M1 Rail look like a routine shopping trip to Target.

Wait till the book gets written on California's High Speed Rail project! There is neither the money nor the potential for the money, but that is not an impediment to Governor Brown! It's going to be a crazy book called "The Emperor Has No Railroad".

**SDCC** · June-18-14, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Wait till the book gets written on California's High Speed Rail project! There is neither the money nor the potential for the money, but that is not an impediment to Governor Brown! It's going to be a crazy book called "The Emperor Has No Railroad".

One of the governor's opponents [[Kashkari) refers to the high speed train as "Jerry's Crazy Train"...which he states will be the first thing he cuts...There was money approved for the project, but I believe the new guess-ta-mates have ballooned by billions.

**bailey** · June-18-14, 11:43 AM

But even without federal funds, officials of the so-called M-1 project says it

would survive — but concede it might have to be scaled back.

Gosh... we've heard that song before now haven't we?

Scaled back to what? Congress to GCP?

**ABetterDetroit** · June-18-14, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Yeah, the Big Dig in Boston at $14.6 Billion, billons over original budget, makes M1 Rail look like a routine shopping trip to Target.

Big dig was 10B + fed funded. Compared to that it makes M-1 look like the Feds threw a few coins from the ashtray out the window as the light termed green.

**wolverine** · June-19-14, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Yeah, the Big Dig in Boston at $14.6 Billion, billons over original budget, makes M1 Rail look like a routine shopping trip to Target.

$200 million was the overhaul cost of one single CTA station, so yeah...I'm annoyed a relatively affordable transit line of new construction is being held up over $12 million.

**DetroitPlanner** · June-19-14, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by wolverine

$200 million was the overhaul cost of one single CTA station, so yeah...I'm annoyed a relatively affordable transit line of new construction is being held up over $12 million.

Where did you get that number from? $200 million to overhaul one station? Which Station is this? Oglive? Does it include the tower too, and all of the track? The I-96 reconstruction is half that including 8 miles of pavement and about 40 bridges, all taken out, reshaped and put back in brand new.

**professorscott** · June-18-14, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

That is totally accurate. They have the money to build it, but obviously, they'd like more "free money" if they can get it. This really isn't news; most not-for-profits apply for all sorts of government money, and they put forward sob stories and press releases in an attempt to get it. I am 100% in favor of the project, and plan to use. But I don't care if they get this grant. It's coming anyways.

Regarding the story of M1 Rail being novel-worthy, I must say it is not one of the lengthier, costly, or scandalous construction projects in history. A boring book.

Agreed. There have been "money issues" since 2007; that will never go away, it is a part of this business. I hope they get it just because the more non-local money that goes into this, the less local money it will need.

To me the interesting challenges of this project are the technical ones: how do we get under the railroad tracks, will an off-wire system actually work in a cold climate, how much can we mitigate the slowing effects of traffic, and so on.

**erikd** · June-21-14, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

That is totally accurate. They have the money to build it, but obviously, they'd like more "free money" if they can get it. This really isn't news; most not-for-profits apply for all sorts of government money, and they put forward sob stories and press releases in an attempt to get it. I am 100% in favor of the project, and plan to use. But I don't care if they get this grant. It's coming anyways.

What "free money" are you talking about? It's not "free money." We give the federal government a significant portion of our income for the express purpose of funding public programs and infrastructure, specifically things like public transit.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-24-14, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by erikd

What "free money" are you talking about? It's not "free money." We give the federal government a significant portion of our income for the express purpose of funding public programs and infrastructure, specifically things like public transit.

I meant a few things by the term "free money." I never meant to imply there is any such thing- of course there isn't- only that those wanting to spend said money would not be the ones to have to produce it in any way. The federal budget is roughly a third borrowed money. Other people will have to pay that back one day, the current spenders are not themselves on the hook.
M1Rail officials, if given [[more) federal money, will not need to have done anything differently, paid any more taxes, or improved the project in any way. That makes it "free money" as far as they are concerned.

I also reject entirely the notion that any group/city/state or whatever is "just getting back what they paid in". All federal spending should be spent for national, or at least interstate, needs. We have state and local governments to raise and spend money for state and local projects. Detroit transit is a local project. Just because the feds wrongly [[and unsustainably) fund other local transit projects doesn't make it right. Also, just because the feds spend the money doesn't mean they have the money! The feds don't have any extra money for transit projects. Unlike all the other governments, they can borrow and spend as they wish, regardless of ability to pay it off. And they can print money.

Detroit and Michigan have enough money here, public and private sector, to complete any reasonable transportation project. If the public decides not to raise and spend that money, that isn't a reason to qualify for national money, regrettable as it might be. If local voters reject local transit, it does not morph into a national issue, and thus an appropriate receiver of federal money.

**dmike76** · June-18-14, 07:47 AM

Ugh.....I don't see how Gilbert and the others can let this fail now. There has been too much money and time put into this. I think it's probably that they'll kick in more money if they have to, but who knows? This is Detroit, after all.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-18-14, 11:26 AM

As a general principle, I don't agree with funding local things with federal money. Besides dubious constitutional authority for such spending, it just seems to detach responsible behavior from spending money. Every local government, NGO, and politician justifies it with the explanation that we're just getting back what we sent there. But honestly, because the feds can print money and endlessly borrow [[both of which we do), it is more correct to say that we're just getting back what currently unborn people will send there. There is enough money here to build and operate M1 Rail. But why pay for something yourself when you can stick someone else with the bill?

**Detroitnerd** · June-18-14, 11:46 AM

Good. Scrap the plan and do real, center-running rapid transit with decently spaced stops.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-18-14, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Good. Scrap the plan and do real, center-running rapid transit with decently spaced stops.

Where would that money come from? And fewer stops will mean less use, I would guess. It's not designed to be rapid transit [[express buses on the freeways would be much faster than street rail).

**Detroitnerd** · June-18-14, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Where would that money come from? And fewer stops will mean less use, I would guess. It's not designed to be rapid transit [[express buses on the freeways would be much faster than street rail).

Easy: Get rid of the corrupt DDA that usurps city taxes, scrap plans for Ilitch's "You Paid For It" arena, take away Danny Boy's $60 million in tax abatements and I think that's more than enough money to build what those poor, benighted rich folks can't.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-18-14, 01:56 PM

Take Gilbert, Ilitch and downtown developers out of the equation and there would be no need for a train to ever go downtown.

**bailey** · June-18-14, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Take Gilbert, Ilitch and downtown developers out of the equation and there would be no need for a train to ever go downtown.

..or the M-1 itself. in spite of all that's wrong with it, they're the only group pushing rail in any form.

**Danny** · June-18-14, 02:18 PM

So this is how mass transit dies, with a thunderous applause. What a way to fleece our dollars to something we don't want.

**Honky Tonk** · June-18-14, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

Take Gilbert, Ilitch and downtown developers out of the equation and there would be no need for a train to ever go downtown.

There is no train "going Downtown". It's a 3.3 mile, back and forth delivery service, feeding Ilitchtown and Gilbertville. It's going to do nothing for the rest of Detroiters, it's not the start of Detroit's mass transit system, it's not going to be "mass" or "rapid" transit by any stretch of the imagination.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-18-14, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

There is no train "going Downtown". It's a 3.3 mile, back and forth delivery service, feeding Ilitchtown and Gilbertville. It's going to do nothing for the rest of Detroiters, it's not the start of Detroit's mass transit system, it's not going to be "mass" or "rapid" transit by any stretch of the imagination.

Do you honestly think that the Fox, Comerica Park or the new arena would really lack for visitors if the rail line wasn't built? The first two pack 'em in already. I suspect the arena would do just fine, too. Dan Gilbert seems to be doing rather well for himself, too, without light rail. Did it ever dawn on you Honky Tonk that perhaps they want to share their visitors/employees with the rest of downtown? Yoda was right. Hate does, in fact, lead to the dark side.

**Honky Tonk** · June-18-14, 03:00 PM

You're so right. That area is packed. There are other needs this City has that require my money and everyone's attention besides the comedy team of Mike & Dan. You're right, both are doing well for themselves. I totally support a viable transportation system not this. Their visitors and employees can use the original People Remover. A 2 block walk will clear their heads after a hard day @ the office.