Rapid Bus Project for Pontiac --> Downtown Detroit Proposed

[Danny]

We have the M rail line. Why do we need another rapid transit line?

[bailey]

This is why you have a bus system feed into the commuter rail. You know better than I do that there is an existing rail station in Birmingham, and near Wayne State / New Center. The whole idea is that a commuter train only stops every several miles, speeding up service. It makes more sense to take a 30-45 minute train ride and transfer to a local bus for a couple blocks, than to take a 90-minute bus ride [[and still perhaps, have to transfer).

Isn't this needlessly complex? Why all the transfering and switching? It's one fucking corridor.
this whole thing should be the route that M1 is taking and being designed for... but yeah, slapping MORE buses together seems like a grand idea. lets make sure we spend 10 years of study on this proposal as well. also, lets see if we can get two or three more modes of service on Woodward between new center and Downtown because that stretch is totally underserved by transit.

[masterblaster]

Smart cards? I assume that is a plastic card that can be loaded [[reloaded) in various combinations; one day, one week, one month, their called Compass cards here. They can be loaded at home via my computer, any trolley stop, or any Albertson’s grocery store. A far, far, better deal; $73.00 a month [[adult) for unlimited travel on all urban bus routes and any and all trolley lines, the daily rate for unlimited travel is $5.00, monthly is the way to go, and the overwhelming majority of people have bus passes [[or smart cards). Boarding a bus there is a card reader – pretty sure this is not new technology. Trolley stations have card readers, and riders are supposed to “tap” their cards on these machines prior to boarding. Once boarded there are no machines to purchase a ticket or load money onto a card, and you run the risk of the trolley police boarding [[with hand held scanners) and inspecting tickets and passes.

The best deal in San Diego is the semester passes [[small sticker attached to ID) that are issued by all the colleges in the county; for $181.00 – which can be deducted from a student’s financial aid account – its valid for 4 ½ months of unlimited ridership on any and all buses and trolleys. These stickers don’t “read”, we are required to show our ID’s instead.

Attachment 23623

You guys have got it together there in San Diego. We are so backwards,outdated, and behind-the-time here in Detroit. That semester pass would be great for Wayne State, College for Creative Studies students, and U of D Mercy students

[allhype101]

Really, it's hard to consider why BRT is more of an appeal than, say, a more efficient SMART line along the corridor.

If the 445/450/465/475 routes were given a dedicated lane, if a pre-pay fare system was implemented, and funding was boosted to restore service into Detroit throughout the day, you'd probably deliver the same result as this proposal.

[ghettopalmetto]

Isn't this needlessly complex? Why all the transfering and switching? It's one fucking corridor.
this whole thing should be the route that M1 is taking and being designed for... but yeah, slapping MORE buses together seems like a grand idea. lets make sure we spend 10 years of study on this proposal as well. also, lets see if we can get two or three more modes of service on Woodward between new center and Downtown because that stretch is totally underserved by transit.

What's complex about transferring from a bus to a train, or vice-versa?

The simple "solution"--running a SexyBus up-and-down Woodward, accomplishes nothing more than the existing "local" bus service does. In fact, it's worse, because the stops are spaced too far apart, and one would have to transfer to a "local" bus anyway. Further, it cements the idea that Detroit will have "rapid transit", when this couldn't be further from the truth.

No region in the nation is insane enough to run a 30-mile long bus route [[save for limited-stop commuter buses), and there are very good reasons for that. But hey, if you're willing to ride 90 minutes each way to go between Detroit and Pontiac, go right on ahead.

If you want to speed up bus service along Woodward, just start an express route [[using existing buses) that only stops every mile. It'll perform exactly as SexyBus, but without wasting years of planning, proposal writing, hand-wringing, and hundreds of millions of dollars of road resurfacing/landscaping. You could start that route tomorrow, and be done with it.

[bailey]

What's complex about transferring from a bus to a train, or vice-versa?

I don't mean in general, I mean along this one route. Why should a trip from say the GM building up woodward to a destination in Bham take multiple transfers. PM, to M1 to New Center, then either Sexybus the rest of the way, or Rail to Bham and bus from transit center to Bham. Or PM or just hoof it over to Rosa Parks and take a Sexy Bus the whole way, stopping locally downtown and every mile thereafter. How is any of that better than a well run local and express bus system and how is any of that going to get anyone not using transit to use it?

If you want to speed up bus service along Woodward, just start an express route [[using existing buses) that only stops every mile. It'll perform exactly as SexyBus, but without wasting years of planning, proposal writing, hand-wringing, and hundreds of millions of dollars of road resurfacing/landscaping. You could start that route tomorrow, and be done with it.

exactly. Same could be said for M1 service.

[dtowncitylover]

Really, it's hard to consider why BRT is more of an appeal than, say, a more efficient SMART line along the corridor.

If the 445/450/465/475 routes were given a dedicated lane, if a pre-pay fare system was implemented, and funding was boosted to restore service into Detroit throughout the day, you'd probably deliver the same result as this proposal.

Well, we also need more modern buses, like the new green ones and the accordian buses SMART has received recently. We also need better signage and important stops, such at the mile roads and half-mile roads need better shelter/waiting space. I used to take the 450 north from 12 Mile. Standing in mud with nice shoes on is not fun.

I don't really want to defend this project, but BRT is better than our current system. Larger buses, concrete stops, and dedicated lanes make this alot better than what we have now. Even if you start an express route with the current fleet, you still aren't getting anywhere. There probably won't be increase in ridership or economic development, because you're still using the same old buses.

It sounds like this route, which will presumably phase out 450 [[or local service will become limited), will go into the city, which will make going from the RenCen to Bham require one connection from the PM to Rosa Parks TC. And please, people can hoof it over to RPTC, it's the city, you walk. Perhaps in the city, it will do just what SMART does, drop off only in the city southbound and pick up only in the city northbound.

[bailey]

It sounds like this route, which will presumably phase out 450 [[or local service will become limited), will go into the city, which will make going from the RenCen to Bham require one connection from the PM to Rosa Parks TC. And please, people can hoof it over to RPTC, it's the city, you walk. Perhaps in the city, it will do just what SMART does, drop off only in the city southbound and pick up only in the city northbound.

I'm being a bit facetious here, but if it's a city and people are supposed to walk everywhere within the PM's circle, then why have a PM in the first place? It seems weird to me to say, "ignore that elevated train with a stop grafted to the front of your building, just walk a mile over to the RPTC and use those buses".... and of course once on the bus, ignore the shiny new trolley that runs along side that bus for 3 miles.

Why invent and implement ANOTHER bus system out of whole cloth? Why is this BRT...which is just buses dressed up to look like rail... stuff even being discussed if the M1 is supposed to be the foundation of regional rail?

[ghettopalmetto]

Why invent and implement ANOTHER bus system out of whole cloth? Why is this BRT...which is just buses dressed up to look like rail... stuff even being discussed if the M1 is supposed to be the foundation of regional rail?

Honestly?

Because as pertains to transit, SEMCOG and the local powers-that-be don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. They're either utterly clueless--or hoping the public is clueless--about how transit works.

[dtowncitylover]

I'm being a bit facetious here, but if it's a city and people are supposed to walk everywhere within the PM's circle, then why have a PM in the first place? It seems weird to me to say, "ignore that elevated train with a stop grafted to the front of your building, just walk a mile over to the RPTC and use those buses".... and of course once on the bus, ignore the shiny new trolley that runs along side that bus for 3 miles.

Why invent and implement ANOTHER bus system out of whole cloth? Why is this BRT...which is just buses dressed up to look like rail... stuff even being discussed if the M1 is supposed to be the foundation of regional rail?

Hey, this is true, I'm not gonna argue with that. And ditto on what ghettopalmetto says. SEMCOG knows shit. I've always wanted to stand up in those transit meetings and berate them for what they do. They know nothing and SEMCOG's existance is tragic; it could be used for such good but instead is the United Nations of Metro Detroit. Great idea, bad outcomes.

[Hermod]

SE Michigan never developed a true commuter rail network. The surrounding communities only needed Detroit for an occasional trip to the "big city" which was adequately met by a couple of passenger trains a day. As Detroit grew, it was the center of the interurban boom [[1890-1915) and all of the prospective commuter lines had parallel interurban lines [[Gratiot to Port Huron, Woodward to Pontiac, Michigan to Ann Arbor, Grand River to Novi, and Fort St to Monroe). As a result, the rail lines never developed commuter service to be "grandfathered in" as did Chicago, New York, and Philadelphia. The only commuter line that ever really ran was the GTW line to Pontiac run by the GTW. Now the Dequindre cut has been abandoned to the bikers and Brush St Station [[which would serve a Woodward and a Gratiot line) is no more.

[Bham1982]

Rapid bus service on Woodward actually makes some sense [[at least compared to the Gilbertville Trolley). Royal Oak to Downtown Rapid Bus Service would work, and get strong ridership.

[ghettopalmetto]

Rapid bus service on Woodward actually makes some sense [[at least compared to the Gilbertville Trolley). Royal Oak to Downtown Rapid Bus Service would work, and get strong ridership.

Except the proposed idea;

1. Has not a damned thing "rapid" about it.

2. Costs a lot of money for...

3. ...providing service [[Detroit-to-Pontiac in 90 minutes) identical to what already exists.

Don't be fooled. Bus "rapid" transit is a scam by the road lobby to siphon transit dollars into road paving projects. No more, no less.

[trotwood]

This makes good sense to me.

If the 445/450/465/475 routes were given a dedicated lane, if a pre-pay fare system was implemented, and funding was boosted to restore service into Detroit throughout the day, you'd probably deliver the same result as this proposal.

[masterblaster]

Why invent and implement ANOTHER bus system out of whole cloth? Why is this BRT...which is just buses dressed up to look like rail... stuff even being discussed if the M1 is supposed to be the foundation of regional rail?

SEMCOG does not want a rail system. They want Rapid Bus lines up Woodward, Gratiot, and M-59[[which is absurd). No rail. This M-1 line is independent of any regional/state government initiative.

[That Great Guy]

This is why you have a bus system feed into the commuter rail. You know better than I do that there is an existing rail station in Birmingham, and near Wayne State / New Center. The whole idea is that a commuter train only stops every several miles, speeding up service. It makes more sense to take a 30-45 minute train ride and transfer to a local bus for a couple blocks, than to take a 90-minute bus ride [[and still perhaps, have to transfer).



Yes, these are sticking points. But it seems to me that Chicago has much more freight rail traffic than Detroit, yet manage to have a far more robust--let alone existent--commuter rail system.



I'm disappointed in you, professorscott. You always struck me as someone very knowledgeable as to the purposes of various transit modes.

I'm also disappointed in you, professorscott.

Next August a vote of NO will improve SMART bus service.

Mr. John Hertel refuses to publicly debate me because he is a freeway expansion lobbyist who supports federal and state cuts in public bus funding and service reductions. He wants more money from City Hall.

[Bham1982]

Except the proposed idea;

1. Has not a damned thing "rapid" about it.

2. Costs a lot of money for...

3. ...providing service [[Detroit-to-Pontiac in 90 minutes) identical to what already exists.

Don't be fooled. Bus "rapid" transit is a scam by the road lobby to siphon transit dollars into road paving projects. No more, no less.

I don't see how this is true. BRT systems typically involve dedicated bus lanes and even targeted signaling, and are typically many times cheaper than rail systems, which require huge infrastructure outlays. BRT can be fast and inexpensive, and is much more similar to light rail than to local bus service.

And what on earth is the "road lobby"? BRT wouldn't benefit any such lobby any more than light rail. Road improvements in Michigan are almost entirely covered by counties and localities, so if there's some new road being built in boondock township [[which is rare these days, BTW), the township and county are paying the bill.

[animatedmartian]

SEMCOG does not want a rail system. They want Rapid Bus lines up Woodward, Gratiot, and M-59[[which is absurd). No rail. This M-1 line is independent of any regional/state government initiative.

I'm pretty sure SEMCOG just wants some sort of rapid transit along high capacity corridors. That can mean anything from buses to subways. http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...it_Plan_04.pdf

BRT is what was proposed by Bing and related parties back in 2011 as a cheaper alternative to the light rail that was proposed to go to 8 Mile [[and soon finding out that Detroit was about to run out of money). M1 is the privately funded section of what would have been a publicly funded project.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't see how this is true. BRT systems typically involve dedicated bus lanes and even targeted signaling, and are typically many times cheaper than rail systems, which require huge infrastructure outlays.

Typically? Based on what? Cleveland's HealthLine, which has ZERO signal pre-emption? Or Los Angeles's MetroRapid, which doesn't have dedicated lanes for its entire route? Or maybe Boston's Silver Line, which is notorious for getting stuck in traffic, and makes people along its route pine for the [[now-demolished) Orange Line El. There are only a handful of bus routes in the United States recognized as bus "rapid" transit, and they all vary wildly in their operating characteristics. So I'm glad that you're smart enough to generalize and establish trends about wildly different systems. Never mind that the cheapo Sexybus system proposed for Detroit wouldn't be able to afford ANY of the things you mention, based on the proposed capital budgets.

And where do you get your cost numbers? Hell, I'd be surprised if you ever rode a school bus, let alone bus "rapid" transit.

BRT can be fast and inexpensive, and is much more similar to light rail than to local bus service.

Okay, you first. Come to Cleveland and tell me that the [[average) 12 mph Euclid Avenue Sexybus is just as fast as the Red Line rail. But maybe while you summon your courage to *gasp* take public transit, you can tell us why Ottawa is spending millions of dollars to replace their amazing bus rapid transit system with rail, or why Los Angeles is extending its subway network, or why even BRT Poster Child: Curitiba, Brazil, is building a subway.

And what on earth is the "road lobby"?

So the Michigan Road Builders Association doesn't exist?

BRT wouldn't benefit any such lobby any more than light rail. Road improvements in Michigan are almost entirely covered by counties and localities, so if there's some new road being built in boondock township [[which is rare these days, BTW), the township and county are paying the bill.

Right. And Michigan counties and localities are flat-broke. So why not get federal transit money to repave the major [[8-to-10-lane monstrosity) roads?

But I'm wasting my time. You've demonstrated time-and-again that you're a shill for the status-quo, not the least bit interested in facts, analysis, or empirical evidence.

[Hermod]

Right. And Michigan counties and localities are flat-broke. So why not get federal transit money to repave the major [[8-to-10-lane monstrosity) roads?

Federal transit money is not fungible. You can't spend fed money for public transit on highways. Money comes from the feds with definite strings attached.

[ghettopalmetto]

Federal transit money is not fungible. You can't spend fed money for public transit on highways. Money comes from the feds with definite strings attached.

You can sure as shit use Federal transit dollars to repave and landscape highways--IF you "install" a bus rapid transit project along that roadway.

Euclid Avenue is the finest stretch of pavement in all of Cuyahoga County. Not a single damned pothole for seven miles.

[Bham1982]

Typically? Based on what? Cleveland's HealthLine, which has ZERO signal pre-emption? Or Los Angeles's MetroRapid, which doesn't have dedicated lanes for its entire route? Or maybe Boston's Silver Line, which is notorious for getting stuck in traffic, and makes people along its route pine for the [[now-demolished) Orange Line El.

This is all wrong. All of these systems have dedicated lanes. I have never heard of a BRT system with no dedicated lanes, and don't know how it would be possible.

There are only a handful of bus routes in the United States recognized as bus "rapid" transit, and they all vary wildly in their operating characteristics.

True, and irrelevent. There are only a handful of rail systems in the U.S., and they too vary wildly in their operating characeristics. What's your point?

And where do you get your cost numbers? Hell, I'd be surprised if you ever rode a school bus, let alone bus "rapid" transit.

How about every BRT system in existence? How does painting a roadway and building a barrier and some fare machines cost more than a rail system?

That's what NYC did with its BRT lines all over the city, and the ridership destroys that of most rail systems. They've spent a couple of hundred of million citywide, and are getting hundreds of miles, which would be the cost of just planning additional rail lines, never mind building anything rail [[and in a very high cost city where they're spending $5 billion on a single subway station at the WTC, and tens of billions on the Second Avenue Subway and East Side Access projects).

[professorscott]

This is all wrong. All of these systems have dedicated lanes. I have never heard of a BRT system with no dedicated lanes, and don't know how it would be possible.

The confusion here, I think, Bham, is that projectors of bus lines tend to want to call them "BRT" when they actually aren't, because you can try to get Uncle Sugar to ante up for something if you claim that it's BRT.


To me, if you want to call something BRT and convince me that you aren't just blowing smoke, you have to have, at a minimum, these operating characteristics:

1. Transit-only lanes. Now, true, a BRT system can go non-BRT in mixed traffic beyond the end of the BRT portion, or can have spurs which are non-BRT. But, to me, only the portion in dedicated lanes is actually BRT.

2. Off-board fare payment [[in the BRT portion, as noted above). If the bus has to idle while people fumble with crumpled-up dollar bills, that's not BRT.

3. Some amount of signal tweakage, though this varies situationally. Queue-jump signals at a minimum, and preferable full-scale signal prioritization.

If you have those things on at least a portion of a route, that portion is BRT; otherwise you're just putting in, at most, an express bus.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is all wrong. All of these systems have dedicated lanes. I have never heard of a BRT system with no dedicated lanes, and don't know how it would be possible.

So maybe you can explain how Boston's Silver Line is perpetually stuck in traffic. Must be those dedicated lanes, huh?

It's called "Run the damned bus down an ordinary street". That's how it's possible.

There are only a handful of rail systems in the U.S., and they too vary wildly in their operating characeristics. What's your point?

There are dozens of light rail systems in the United States. They all have dedicated right-of-way, operate in multiple-car consists, utilized steel wheels on steel rails, are powered by electricity, have fare payment systems, stations-and-platforms, and many are also grade-separated [[at least in portions). That sounds pretty consistent to me.

Cleveland's ballyhooed HealthLine cost just as much per mile to construct as the Waterfront Line light rail. The HealthLine, though, is so RAPID with it's dedicated lanes, boarding platforms, fare prepayment, and brand new sexybuses, that its average operating speed is a whopping 12 miles per hour! It's a miracle people aren't building this kind of rapid transit everywhere!

How about every BRT system in existence? How does painting a roadway and building a barrier and some fare machines cost more than a rail system?

Well, that in itself doesn't make "rapid transit" now, does it? And since there really isn't such a thing as true bus "rapid" transit in this country, it's a bit difficult to use that metric for comparison, isn't it?

It seems like you forgot purchase of articulated low-floor buses, construction of stations, electronic transmitters and receivers for traffic signal pre-emption, and repaving of the roadway. But since the cost of those things is practically negligible, let's start buying white paint and get to work on our World Class Rapid Transit!

[ghettopalmetto]

The position Bham1982 is advocating is known as "BRT Creep". Once the decision [[which, in this case, is pre-ordained) is made to construct BRT, then all sorts of shortcuts can be taken in order to complete the project on-the-cheap. The project is sold as rapid transit, but the finished product looks like painted white lines on the road, and it is somehow assumed that because of new painted white lines, an ordinary bus will operate in the same manner [[and with the same cost metrics) as a train. I'm still not sure how paint = rapid transit. I guess we're just supposed to believe the road builders, er, experts at SEMCOG.

So yeah, SEMCOG can recommend a cheap-ass cop-out on transit, but they'll sure-as-shit recommend spending $1 billion to widen I-75, or another $1 billion to widen I-94.

People aren't as dumb as SEMCOG would like them to be.