M-1 to break ground this summer

[bailey]

Is that so? When was the last time you rode the trams in Warsaw?

Is Detroit getting an entire region-wide [[or even city-wide) network of such a system? No. Is Detroit getting the FIRST THREE MILES of such a system? Yes. Are they getting it gratis? Yes.

When you have zero political will, refuse to elect competent legislators, and refuse to tax yourselves for transit, then you really have no recourse when a couple frustrated billionaires TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES to give you the beginnings of competent transit.

The defenders of the status quo will stop at nothing to make excuses for their laziness, will they?

For the 700th time NO ONE IS DEFENDING THE STATUS QUO. NO ONE.

this is not the first leg of anything IT IS THE ONLY LEG. THERE ARE NO REAL PLANS TO TAKE THIS ANYWHERE ELSE. from this point on, its SexyBus[[tm)

It's not coming "gratis" it's coming with 50 million in road fixes to Woodward, 25 million in federal grants, and lifetime funding commitment for it after ten years. [[oh yea, and they don't even have the start up funds they claimed they had anyway....)

If this was just a Gilbertville trolley and he wanted to pay for its installation and operation for its life time... like the Disney world mono rail type thing it is... fine. But it's not.

When you have zero political will, refuse to elect competent legislators, and refuse to tax yourselves for transit, then you really have no recourse when a couple frustrated billionaires TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES to give you the beginnings of competent transit.

When you have zero politcal will, refuse to elect competent legislators, and refuse to tax yourselves for urban renewal and development projects, you really have no recourse when a couple of frustrated billionaires take it upon themselves to build megablock developments.

[Bham1982]

For the 700th time NO ONE IS DEFENDING THE STATUS QUO. NO ONE.

this is not the first leg of anything IT IS THE ONLY LEG. THERE ARE NO PLANS TO TAKE THIS ANYWHERE ELSE.

It's not coming "gratis" it's coming with 50 million in road fixes to Woodward, 25 million in federal grants, and lifetime funding commitment for it after ten years.

If this was just an Gilbertville trolley and he wanted to pay for its installation and operation for it's life time... like the Disney world mono rail type thing it is... fine. But it's not.

All true, and the biggest takeaway that the Gilbert/Illitch acoyltes don't get is that this is NOT a starter system for anything. This is a one-off system that is totally incompatible with modern light rail. If there ever were a regional light rail system they would have to "fix" the Illitchville trolley or just start over.

[ghettopalmetto]

All true, and the biggest takeaway that the Gilbert/Illitch acoyltes don't get is that this is NOT a starter system for anything. This is a one-off system that is totally incompatible with modern light rail.

PROVE IT.

You don't even know the difference between a "streetcar" and "light rail" [[see above). Now you're a railroad engineer.

Don't you have a country club you need to be at?

[believe14]

Bham, why do you even think this is good for bar hopping? Most people don't barhop during the winter, i.e., hockey season. Furthermore, the new hockey arena is guaranteed to have far better in house options than the Joe. I do bar hop a bit when I'm in town for a Tigers game, but all of the bar hopping occurs within walking distance of Comerica. I have no idea why I would ever want to go up Woodward before or after a game. Will people get the urge to have some post game kale at Whole Foods? This thing can't take middle aged families from Plymouth out to Slow's or to Motorcity or Greektown.

"Hey kids, what do you say after the game we ride the trolley up to Wayne State and see some philosophy students!"

Or better yet, "Hey honey, this game is going to cost the family $200. What do you say we ride the trolley to and from midtown to save $5 on parking?"

[Bham1982]

PROVE IT.

The Feds already "proved it". They refused to fund the project, and refused to endorse the project as-is, because it has nothing to do a modern transit system. It was developed by a crap pizza billionaire and a mortgage scam billionaire, not by any transit authority. It's simply being built with the idea that these land titans can enrich their holdings.

You don't even know the difference between a "streetcar" and "light rail" [[see above). Now you're a railroad engineer. ?

No, you're ignorant of the transit mode terms. Light rail is an umbrella term for all non-heavy rail, high capacity transit. Streetcar, trolley are just names for the same thing. Go to the APTA website, and you'll see they're all officially classified exactly the same.

[Bham1982]

Bham, why do you even think this is good for bar hopping? Most people don't barhop during the winter, i.e., hockey season. Furthermore, the new hockey arena is guaranteed to have far better in house options than the Joe. I do bar hop a bit when I'm in town for a Tigers game, but all of the bar hopping occurs within walking distance of the Comerica. I have no idea why I would ever want to go up Woodward before or after a Tigs game. Will I get the urge to have some post game kale at Whole Foods? This thing can't take middle aged families from Plymouth out to Slow's or to Motorcity or Greektown. "Hey kids, what do you say after the game we ride the trolley up to Wayne State and see some philosophy students!"

Or better yet, "Hey honey, this game is going to cost the family $200. What do you say we ride the trolley to and from midtown to save $5 on parking?"

I agree 100%. This will be a huge failure even as a train for drunks.

But I think the landowners truly believe [[or at least believed) that this "investment" would make their holdings much more valuable, as mode of transit between the properties. Sometimes when people are very rich and successful, they assume they have the "right answer" for everything, even if it has nothing to do with selling pizza or mortgages.

[believe14]

I pretty convinced they know it will fail but think it makes the city look "advanced" ...optically. Like maybe they can con some Chinese investors out of some dough with pictures of a trolley in front of their phony retail and new hockey arena? Ditto for naive Central and Western Michigan grads they recruit to cold call. Fake it till you make it.

[ghettopalmetto]

The Feds already "proved it". They refused to fund the project, and refused to endorse the project as-is, because it has nothing to do a modern transit system.

Is that what the official Record says? Or are you postulating again? The FTA refused to fund DTOGS--not the M-1 Rail project. The reason the FTA pulled funding from DTOGS was because there was no dedicated source of operating funding for the system. The M-1 Rail streetcar was always intended to be privately funded.

It was developed by a crap pizza billionaire and a mortgage scam billionaire, not by any transit authority. It's simply being built with the idea that these land titans can enrich their holdings.

Well, that's part of it. The other part is that you don't have a transit authority with any *ahem* authority. You reap what you sow. Talk to the dog-and-pony show people in Lansing, not the transit advocates on this forum.

I guess I missed the part, however, where new development and increased real estate values in Detroit are a bad thing. But I'm confused--the streetcar is going to be a colossal failure AND it's going to generate new development? Since you're the self-appointed real-estate expert on the forums, Bham, maybe you can reconcile these incompatible positions you have taken.

Maybe you'd just prefer that any new development be in the form of more plastic-coated schlock in Oakland County: The Center of the Universe? Is that it?

No, you're ignorant of the transit mode terms. Light rail is an umbrella term for all non-heavy rail, high capacity transit. Streetcar, trolley are just names for the same thing. Go to the APTA website, and you'll see they're all officially classified exactly the same.

Whatever you want to think, Sparky. You're not going to ride transit anyway, so what the hell do you care?

"No, Mr. City Resident, you can't have the beginnings of a respectable transit system, because some self-appointed genius in Birmingham said so."

[chicagoforlife]

I am well aware of the transit problems in Detroit, it's totally ridiculous that a city the size of Detroit has to have such problems. I don't understand why this so call light rail doesn't have a Transit Authority behind it like every other transit system in America does. I don't understand why there is only one leg of it being planned and nothing else, Detroit's a city of 139 square miles and their only concern is the 3-4 square miles of Downtown, Midtown and New Center. It would of done much better had the line gone up to Eight Mile and been planned as a real light rail system with a Transit Authority behind it instead of billionaires who think they know what they are doing just because they have money. I haven't seen anywhere else in America where a rail line is being planned by private investors instead of a Transit Authority. The Transit Authority could also take over the bus system, redesign bus routes so they compliment a rail system instead of having buses running on the same street as the light rail llines.

Looking at Detroit it's easy to design a light rail system, you would have lines going up Woodward to Eight Mile, Grand River to probably Evergreen or Telegraph, Gratiot to Eight Mile, Michigan to either the city limits or the airport, Jefferson to the city limits. Only problem is that it would cost too much money most likely, that's why you need to have different legs where you would expand and get to the planned end points of the line. In about 20-30 years Detroit could have a complete system most likely if started this year.

I just can't believe that this is being done by people who have no clue about mass transit and I also can't believe that this is the only leg planned forever, once they get that 3.3 miles or whatever done it's done and the other 135 square miles of Detroit are screwed without such services.

[ghettopalmetto]

I am well aware of the transit problems in Detroit, it's totally ridiculous that a city the size of Detroit has to have such problems. I don't understand why this so call light rail doesn't have a Transit Authority behind it like every other transit system in America does. I don't understand why there is only one leg of it being planned and nothing else, Detroit's a city of 139 square miles and their only concern is the 3-4 square miles of Downtown, Midtown and New Center. It would of done much better had the line gone up to Eight Mile and been planned as a real light rail system with a Transit Authority behind it instead of billionaires who think they know what they are doing just because they have money. I haven't seen anywhere else in America where a rail line is being planned by private investors instead of a Transit Authority. The Transit Authority could also take over the bus system, redesign bus routes so they compliment a rail system instead of having buses running on the same street as the light rail llines.

If you read this thread, you'll understand why that is. Southeast Michigan is chock full of people who pass the buck, make excuses, expect "Someone Else" to fix problems, and don't want to do anything about anything, yet somehow seem to know Every Damn Thing There Is To Know.

I'd like to think those kind of people are just a small, incredibly vocal, minority. But they've been sufficient to hold-up progress for decades. Want to start a shitstorm in Michigan? Threaten to divert the gravy train of subsidies from someone's suburban utopia.

[believe14]

Extend it to 8 Mile, make one down Gratiot? Lol. Are guys in Palmer Woods going to trade in their leased Cadillacs for a trolley pass to head to work? You guys are clueless. This is a private seeded, public draining pet project. Boondoggle through and through.

[ghettopalmetto]

Extend it to 8 Mile, make one down Gratiot? Lol. Are guys in Palmer Woods going to trade in their leased Cadillacs for a trolley pass to head to work? You guys are clueless. This is a private seeded, public draining pet project. Boondoggle through and through.

That's what they said about the Davison Freeway: It's too expensive! Who's going to maintain it? It's too short! It doesn't go anywhere! No one is going to use it! A boondoggle!

[dtowncitylover]

That's what they said about the Davison Freeway: It's too expensive! Who's going to maintain it? It's too short! It doesn't go anywhere! No one is going to use it! A boondoggle!

Meh, the Davison Freeway was a complete waste of money with no foresight involved. I'm sure there needed to be a quick way from east side to west side but building an 8 lane depressed freeway and tearing apart the urban fabric should not have been the way to do it. A parkway might've been a better choice.

Believe14, maybe those people would use it. You don't know that. But there's neighborhoods on the other side of Woodward and further west along 6 and 7 Mile chock full of people who would use the feeder buses that cross Woodward and take the tram downtown, what a transit system is meant to do. Full of connected bus, tram, and subway lines that feed into each other to provide the best and most fluid system.

[stasu1213]

That's what they said about the Davison Freeway: It's too expensive! Who's going to maintain it? It's too short! It doesn't go anywhere! No one is going to use it! A boondoggle!

The one that I don't like are the overhead wires. That's so ancient. Isn't there a better system that doesn't need overhead wires to run off.

[dtowncitylover]

The one that I don't like are the overhead wires. That's so ancient. Isn't there a better system that doesn't need overhead wires to run off.

Yes, but I believe the tracks are electrified and then you pray to God no one falls on the tracks.

[Honky Tonk]

That's what they said about the Davison Freeway: It's too expensive! Who's going to maintain it? It's too short! It doesn't go anywhere! No one is going to use it! A boondoggle!

That's what they said about the People Remover too, and look how that worked out. Now years later, @ almost half a billion dollars cost, [[there was a bit of overrun) the areas around it have flourished, by riding a variety of loops, you can go all the way to 8 mile and beyond, and it's practically paid for itself!

[Hermod]

The one that I don't like are the overhead wires. That's so ancient. Isn't there a better system that doesn't need overhead wires to run off.

There is third rail [[which requires a fenced right-of-way). There is slot rail [[which doesn't do well in winter areas).

There is also having the car carry its own engine-generator for the electric power. The downside is maintenance of the motor-generator. The upside is no trolley line maintenance [[which is a headache).

Attachment 23557

[professorscott]

The one that I don't like are the overhead wires. That's so ancient. Isn't there a better system that doesn't need overhead wires to run off.

There are several better systems, one of which M1 is seriously considering. In Europe they have a system where the in-ground third rail is only electrified when the train is over it, so there's no risk to pedestrians, but I'm not sure it would work with the amount of snow and ice in Detroit. A more likely system is one in which the streetcar runs on batteries which are recharged during dwell times at the stations and at the end of the route, and it is quite likely M1 will end up with such a system. They are likely only to use the traditional overhead wire/catenary setup if they can't get the battery system to their liking.

[ghettopalmetto]

There is third rail [[which requires a fenced right-of-way). There is slot rail [[which doesn't do well in winter areas).

There is also having the car carry its own engine-generator for the electric power. The downside is maintenance of the motor-generator. The upside is no trolley line maintenance [[which is a headache).

Attachment 23557

The photo is a Deutsche-Bahn Regio train, which is a regional [[commuter) rail. I don't know of any streetcar or light rail systems that are operated with third-rail power.

Washington, DC used to used slots for trolleys operating in the monumental core of the District, where overhead power lines had been banned by Congress. The trolley pole would be mounted on top of the car, and when leaving the monumental core, the operator would have to affix the trolley pole so that electric power could be obtained from the overhead lines [[and vice-versa).

[SDCC]

Battery powered trolleys? And place them on top of the trolleys? Or have them placed at intervals along the track? Are you aware of the electricity required to power a single trolley [[San Diego runs 3 trolleys in tandem). And the size, weight, and costs associated with these batteries?
San Diego played with the idea of stationary batteries along a portion of one line several years ago.

[professorscott]

The batteries are in the streetcar, not along the route. They recharge by overhead wires at each station and at the route terminus. I'm familiar with the technology and I realize the batteries are expensive, but overhead catenary is also expensive. Electric vehicle technology has made great strides in the past ten years.

[SDCC]

I hear you and you’re right, there have been great strides in battery development since San Diego played with the idea. Here in San Diego when a trolley reaches its last stop, the driver exits the trolley, walks to what was the last trolley car, enters it, designates it the lead trolley car, and starts the route all over again. There is no down time – or route terminus – oh maybe a few minutes, but the same trolleys run continuously all day – every 15 minutes. The Blue line – which runs from the Mexican border to downtown, runs every 7 minutes during morning and evening rush hours.
And to think about swapping out trolleys in the middle of the day to recharge, with the tight schedules the trolleys have here in San Diego, was, and still is, a theory.

[softailrider]

That's what they said about the Davison Freeway: It's too expensive! Who's going to maintain it? It's too short! It doesn't go anywhere! No one is going to use it! A boondoggle!

It gets me over to the Ham Palace near 6 Mile for lunch quite often. It ain't health food but it's good eatin at that place!

[Hermod]

Streetcars powered by clockwork [[stop at the powerhouse to rewind), naptha, ammonia, compressed air, steam dummies, trollers [[2 overhead wires), single wire pole and she cars, catenary and pantograph, outside third rail, and under-running third rail have all been tried at one time or another.

One third rail system is the Washington Metro which is a hybrid subway, elevated, and surface running system powered by third rail.

[Pickford-Bentler]

There are several better systems, one of which M1 is seriously considering. In Europe they have a system where the in-ground third rail is only electrified when the train is over it, so there's no risk to pedestrians, but I'm not sure it would work with the amount of snow and ice in Detroit. A more likely system is one in which the streetcar runs on batteries which are recharged during dwell times at the stations and at the end of the route, and it is quite likely M1 will end up with such a system. They are likely only to use the traditional overhead wire/catenary setup if they can't get the battery system to their liking.

I found an article about this type of tram.

http://www.railway-technology.com/ne...tation-4261971



Škoda Transportation is set to supply 12 catenary-free ForCity Classic trams to the Turkish city of Konya.
The company has already agreed to supply 60 ForCity Classic [[28T) trams to the city. As part of an extended contract, 72 trams in total will be delivered to Konya with a value of around CZK3.4bn [[$172.3m).
The trams with new battery-powered catenary-free drives will enable the vehicles to move independently of the traction wiring with a range of 3km.
Škoda will use high-performance batteries with nano-lithium-titanium technology, which can be recharged during tram operation under the tramcar in just a few minutes.
Škoda Transportation senior vice-president Zal Shahbaz said: "Moreover, by developing and manufacturing a catenary-free tram, we confirmed, one more time that we are able to meet the short customer delivery schedule, combining the latest 'nano-lithium-titanium' battery technology and competitive solutions."
The catenary-free trams will be delivered in 2015 and will be operated on a new line, which has a 1.8km long section without catenary wiring.
The first 60 ForCity Classic trams have been tested on the trial track on the Škoda premises in Plzen in the presence of a certified representative from the Railroad Research Institute [[VUZ).
Škoda Transportation Electric product manager Milan Šrámek said: "The tram managed to accelerate 30 times to 30km/h for a total of 8km without recharging. The 'catenary-free' solution of Škoda means that, in practice, the tram has a range of 3km without power from the pantograph at the speed of up to 30km/h."


Keep in mind that regenerative braking can also be used to recharge batteries as a tram slow to a stop.