M-1 to break ground this summer

[dtowncitylover]

The 53 Woodward and the M-1 Rail will do completely different things while complementing each other at the same time. The bus goes to 8 Mile. M-1 Rail does not. 53 makes more frequent stops, while M-1 Rail will most likely carry more people.

It's like saying Manhattan doesn't need buses because they already have the subway. No, they need buses and they need the subway. Buses and streetcars [[or light rail or subway) aren't mutually exclusive.

[Hermod]

Thanx for making my point for me. The M-1 Blight Rail was being touted as being able turn red lights green and being faster then buses, and being able to carry thousands of passengers @ once. In reality, this is turning out to be just B/S propaganda. It won't really be capable of doing any of that. Exactly what people predicted was going to happen, is happening. It looks like there isn't going to be a larger mass transit system. It isn't going to be part of a larger spoked wheel system to take commuters to other areas of Metro Detroit. In fact, the RTA, as I posted earlier, has been disbanded. All the Blight Rail will end up being is the choo-choo in Gilbertville and Ilitchville, just like the train in Greenfield Village. Drawing these kinds of investors, on the backs of taxpayers, isn't my idea of making the City "better". As far as your "Harrier Jet" comment, @ least those were privately purchased, and not funded by the taxpaying public.

Ghetto Palmetto inviting you aboard his light rail.

Attachment 23529

[bailey]

The 53 Woodward and the M-1 Rail will do completely different things while complementing each other at the same time. The bus goes to 8 Mile. M-1 Rail does not.

...and apparently never will.

53 makes more frequent stops, while M-1 Rail will most likely carry more people.

There are 9 stops on the 53 from State Fair to Jefferson... M1 has 12 over half the distance.

It's like saying Manhattan doesn't need buses because they already have the subway.

No, its like saying Manhattan needs a Street car to run in traffic along side the bus, making slightly different stops along half the bus's route.

No, they need buses and they need the subway. Buses and streetcars [[or light rail or subway) aren't mutually exclusive.

They are when they run along the same route, with no real differentiation other than capacity of the car.

All of M1 "benefit" over the tiny stretch of woodward could be reproduced by the addition of larger and more buses, better management, and bus-only transit lanes.

[ghettopalmetto]

All of M1 "benefit" over the tiny stretch of woodward could be reproduced by the addition of larger and more buses, better management, and bus-only transit lanes.

Irony is lost on people above a certain age.

[dtowncitylover]

...and apparently never will.
There are 9 stops on the 53 from State Fair to Jefferson... M1 has 12 over half the distance.

No, its like saying Manhattan needs a Street car to run in traffic along side the bus, making slightly different stops along half the bus's route.
They are when they run along the same route, with no real differentiation other than capacity of the car.

All of M1 "benefit" over the tiny stretch of woodward could be reproduced by the addition of larger and more buses, better management, and bus-only transit lanes.

There are not 9 stops. Don't look at the schedule and think just because they have 9 control stops that means there are 9 stops. Between those major points are the minor stops [[usually just a sign) people can wait at to catch the bus.

The great difference between a bus and a streetcar is that the streetcar can actually be catalyst for growth and transit oriented development much more than a bus but less than a full light rail or subway.

When the DSR went to buses only they were successful at first and then everyone realized cars were better and our bus system went to shit. Detroit is way too big to have a bus-only transit system. We can have the best, sleekest buses, with on-time schedule of 100%, and I believe you would still see very little growth. Why? Because at the end of the day, they're still buses. Streetcars, light rail, and subways have always been and always will be the preferred use of transit for larger cities. I'm not saying we shouldn't upgrade DDOT, we should, but just like Detroit economy, we need to diversify our transit options.

[animatedmartian]

When the DSR went to buses only they were successful at first and then everyone realized cars were better and our bus system went to shit. Detroit is way too big to have a bus-only transit system. We can have the best, sleekest buses, with on-time schedule of 100%, and I believe you would still see very little growth. Why? Because at the end of the day, they're still buses. Streetcars, light rail, and subways have always been and always will be the preferred use of transit for larger cities. I'm not saying we shouldn't upgrade DDOT, we should, but just like Detroit economy, we need to diversify our transit options.

+1
Most well said post I've seen this thread.

[Mackinaw]

Believe14, what are you referring to? The other street rail lines we've been build these last few decades...oh wait...

M1 is the first step toward re-making what DSR already provided when we thrived, and there is nothing insane about that...unless you are cheering for Detroit to lose.

[SDCC]

In San Diego the word Trolley has the same meaning as Light Rail. The Trolleys are Light Rail vehicles. San Diego trolleys [[taken from the MTS website) have a capacity of 150 – 200 people per trolley – 3 trolleys run in tandem here in SD, so those numbers can be tripled.
However, realistically [[from someone that rides the trolleys daily) 200 people per trolley is “crush load” capacity – think Tokyo rush hour – which means approximately 50 people would nearly be crushed death. 150 people – absolute maximum per trolley – would be a more realistic number, which could be multiplied by 3 [[3 trolleys running together).
http://www.sdmts.com/MTS/FS_SDTI_000.pdf.pdf

However, the M-1 Rail is referred to as a modern streetcar, a light Rail Vehicle, and a Trolley.
“M-1 RAIL is a non-profit organization formed in 2007 to lead the design, construction, and future operation of a 3.3-mile circulating streetcar along Woodward Avenue between Larned Street and West Grand Boulevard in Detroit, Michigan”.
Another opinion…these “modern streetcars” sound like hybrids, or crossovers, between a trolley and a traditional streetcar – at least what I would traditionally call a streetcar. They certainly sound trolley-ish or Light Rail-ish
http://m-1rail.com/about-m-1-rail/

Buses – San Diego has over 700 buses – of that number approximately 500 run on compressed natural gas, a dozen are gasoline/electric hybrids, and the remainder are gasoline or diesel-powered. Out of all the buses that run in San Diego, less than 40 are the 60-foot articulated variety; they are few and far between.
http://www.sdmts.com/MTS/documents/BusOp_FactSheet.pdf

And to the buses that "Detroit already has running along Woodward"
…”transit service in the study area suffer from three principal deficiencies: overcrowding, slow travel speeds [[compared to travel by auto), and poor on-time performance. Transit demand exceeds supply, despite round-the-clock local bus service on Woodward Avenue [[DDOT Route 53) and eight-minute service headways during peak hours. Route 53 is crowded and, on average, exceeds capacity by one-third during weekday peak times. During morning peak travel times, scheduled bus travel time on Route 53 along Woodward Avenue is about 33 minutes, compared to about 15 minutes by auto. Travel speeds will likely decrease and transit travel time will increase without transportation improvements in the study area to account for future traffic growth. Finally, recent statistics from April 2009 show on DDOT Route 53, the principal bus service along Woodward Avenue, that nearly one-quarter of buses were early, late, or no-shows due to operational issues, peak-hour traffic congestion, or extended dwell times at stops due to overcrowding…”

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...3_395253_7.pdf

[professorscott]

Some of the Woodward bus information is a bit out of date in the quoted document, unfortunately.

Transit demand exceeds supply, despite round-the-clock local bus service on Woodward Avenue [[DDOT Route 53) and eight-minute service headways during peak hours. Route 53 is crowded and, on average, exceeds capacity by one-third during weekday peak times. During morning peak travel times, scheduled bus travel time on Route 53 along Woodward Avenue is about 33 minutes, compared to about 15 minutes by auto.

Bus service on Woodward is no longer "round-the-clock", as most of the readers of this will already know, and the 8 minute headways are only on the schedule for a few hours a day. That many of the trips don't run at all only adds to the difficulty.

[CrashDummy]

I rode the MAX in Portland last summer. It was at-grade, not high-speed, at curbside running as it took us the two miles from the train station to our hotel. It served us exactly the same purpose that the M1 will, and did quite a good job doing it. Of course, now I wish had been more educated by Professor Bham at the time so I could be more pissed at what a waste of time and money it was.

[Cliffy]

Is this train going to have security

[chicagoforlife]

A lot of bus routes in Chicago start and end at CTA L stations. And I believe there are more than 9 stops on the Woodward route 53, those stops you see on bus schedules are just control points along the route, there are many bus stops in between where you can wait for a bus or be dropped off. Here there are about 140 bus routes with over 12,000 stops, about 86 stops a route on average.

I would of liked to see the light rail line go all the way up Woodward to Eight Mile. When I was in Houston four years ago their light rail wasn't very big, they were just starting out. I was in Houston last month and the light rail system is much bigger than it was four years ago. It seems strange though that private investors are supporting the cost of this instead of a Transit Authority like the CTA which runs both the L and bus system.

With just the three miles going up Grand Blvd. I see it as an extension of downtown, especially after the Red Wings open their new arena.

I wonder if route 53 could take a detour after the light rail opens and use Cass instead of Woodward south of Grand Blvd. If my memory serves me I believe route 53 follows Woodward all the way to Michigan and turns to the right to go towards the transfer center. With the light rail there would be no need for route 53 to use Woodward and Cass seems like it would be a good route since the buses need to turn off of Cass onto Grand River to enter the transfer center anyways.

[believe14]

I rode the MAX in Portland last summer. It was at-grade, not high-speed, at curbside running as it took us the two miles from the train station to our hotel. It served us exactly the same purpose that the M1 will, and did quite a good job doing it. Of course, now I wish had been more educated by Professor Bham at the time so I could be more pissed at what a waste of time and money it was.

What metric are you using to compare Portland to Detroit? I can't think of two cities with less in common. Portland is the most yuppy hipster city in the nation, neck and neck with San Fran and Brooklyn. Detroit is the antithesis of a yuppy mecca. And if you think a 3 mile train will cultivate this yuppy mecca, please cite a source.

[believe14]

M1 is the first step toward re-making what DSR already provided when we thrived, and there is nothing insane about that...unless you are cheering for Detroit to lose.

Ad hominem attacks are pathetic. Nobody on this forum wants Detroit to fall deeper into the abyss. We merely recognize M-1 as the boondoggle that it is, which will embarrass the region when it fails, and likely leave the taxpayers on the hook to run or tear down this turkey. Furthermore, there are vastly greater uses of $140M. Detroit is not Portland. Detroit is not Cincinnati. The freaking infrastructure has been neglected for 50 years and is crumbling from top to bottom and we want to build a $140M trolly? The absurdity boggles my mind.

[bailey]

Irony is lost on people above a certain age.

exasperation and sarcasm is lost on many as well.

[Honky Tonk]

Irony is lost on people above a certain age.

..........

[SDCC]

Is this train going to have security

Here we do...when Enforcement gets on the trolley, watch how many people exit stage left. Enforcement is armed and dangerous...
Tickets and passes please...
Trolley Police

[dtowncitylover]

Is this train going to have security

Are you afraid someone is going to sit next to you? I find the whole "security issue" to be a non-issue. This is going down Woodward, in one of the most heavily travelled parts of the city, it's not going down Dexter. DDOT also got transit police going so I wouldn't doubt that there might be something.

Believe14, you have to remember that most of this is private investment. If they are choosing to spend their money this way, don't scold them for trying to reinvigorate an urban center. While I wouldn't be the first to compare Portland and Detroit, I don't see why what the streetcar/light rail system there wouldn't work in Detroit. In fact, given our urban, dense past, it could work better.

Cincinatti and Detroit though are very much alike, especially when the anti-transit people come out of the woodworks. Both are industrial, rust belt, flyover cities that are trying to create a new future for themselves.

[believe14]

1) Are you afraid someone is going to sit next to you? I find the whole "security issue" to be a non-issue.

2) DDOT also got transit police going so I wouldn't doubt that there might be something.

3) Believe14, you have to remember that most of this is private investment. If they are choosing to spend their money this way, don't scold them for trying to reinvigorate an urban center.

4) While I wouldn't be the first to compare Portland and Detroit, I don't see why what the streetcar/light rail system there wouldn't work in Detroit. In fact, given our urban, dense past, it could work better.

5) Cincinatti and Detroit though are very much alike, especially when the anti-transit people come out of the woodworks. Both are industrial, rust belt, flyover cities that are trying to create a new future for themselves.

1) Ah... the over confident, if not numb to the chaos, statistic ignoring dreamer. Most violent major city, period.

2) So is the city safe or not? I mean if it's so safe why do they need cops on public transport? Anyways, we pay $50k a year for each cop to ride these. Got it.

3) False. Tax dollars being use for up fronts and to run the thing, which will be exponentially more than building the stupid thing.

4) No data... just a belief. I find beliefs work really well when I'm pitching business proposals.

5) Detroit violence, sagging economy, illiteracy and corruption is on another planet compared to any other major city in the nation.

[dtowncitylover]

1) Ah... the over confident, if not numb to the chaos, statistic ignoring dreamer. Most violent major city, period.

2) So is the city safe or not? I mean if it's so safe why do they need cops on public transport? Anyways, we pay $50k a year for each cop to ride these. Got it.

3) False. Tax dollars being use for up fronts and to run the thing, which will be exponentially more than building the stupid thing.

4) No data... just a belief. I find beliefs work really well when I'm pitching business proposals.

5) Detroit violence, sagging economy, illiteracy and corruption is on another planet compared to any other major city in the nation.

Transit police forces are found on most transit systems. That doesn't mean it's not safe, that means the system is smart.

True, but this is a transit project so of course it's going to be publically funded, but when you have private investors like Dan Gilbert and JP Morgan Chase [[which combined are giving alot more than the public money being offered), I would say you have a level of uniqueness in this project.

The fact that we had the most extensive streetcar system in the US makes it possible that we can have transit again.

Detroit's corruption is pale compared to the larger cities. Our violence, frankly, has nothing to do with this. I am confident that I will feel safe, especially when it's being run through the safest parts of the city. Violent crimes, for the most part, happen in the neighborhoods. And our economy is sagging because when we try to invest in something that become a catalyst for growth, we get people like you complaining. I get it, you will never ride this, but stop trying to stop other people from riding it. This is going to do good the city. It's proven in other cities. It was once proven here until we were bought out by the Big 3 and the social experiment of a car-oriented city was tried and failed.

[dtowncitylover]

Also I fail to see how our illiteracy rate suddenly disqualifies us from having a good transit system. Are they suddenly 2nd class citizens who aren't allowed decent transit options?

[Honky Tonk]

Also I fail to see how our illiteracy rate suddenly disqualifies us from having a good transit system. Are they suddenly 2nd class citizens who aren't allowed decent transit options?

I fail to see how the M-1 Blight Rail qualifies as a good transit system.

[dtowncitylover]

I fail to see how the M-1 Blight Rail qualifies as a good transit system.

Why they hell are you calling it Blight Rail? What does blight have anything to do with it? This isn't running down Hamilton...anyway, I didn't say it was a good transit system I said, why are some illiterate people [[a small percentage of the overall 4 million+ region) suddenly disqualify us from having a good system? This can be a good system, if we let it become a good system. Instead we're all sitting around ridiculing this without anything constructive. We NEED a transit system [[amongst other things). If we want to be an atrrative, vibrant city, we need this. Or we can continue to be stagnant and provincial.

[ghettopalmetto]

Why they hell are you calling it Blight Rail? What does blight have anything to do with it? This isn't running down Hamilton...anyway, I didn't say it was a good transit system I said, why are some illiterate people [[a small percentage of the overall 4 million+ region) suddenly disqualify us from having a good system? This can be a good system, if we let it become a good system. Instead we're all sitting around ridiculing this without anything constructive. We NEED a transit system [[amongst other things). If we want to be an atrrative, vibrant city, we need this. Or we can continue to be stagnant and provincial.

Because it's a lot easier for some people to sit on their dupas, make excuses, and feel sorry for Detroit than to support anything that smacks of hard work or progress.

[bailey]

Why they hell are you calling it Blight Rail? What does blight have anything to do with it? This isn't running down Hamilton...anyway, I didn't say it was a good transit system I said, why are some illiterate people [[a small percentage of the overall 4 million+ region) suddenly disqualify us from having a good system? This can be a good system, if we let it become a good system. Instead we're all sitting around ridiculing this without anything constructive. We NEED a transit system [[amongst other things). If we want to be an atrrative, vibrant city, we need this. Or we can continue to be stagnant and provincial.

not one person here is disagreeing with the idea that we need a good transit system. The single point being raised is with M1 not only are we not getting it, we're not getting any closer to getting it. We're getting a trolley that will barely serve even a "small percentage of the overall 4+ million region".