M-1 to break ground this summer

[Honky Tonk]

I always wondered had the people mover would had been built ground level would it had been cheaper to build having more money to extend it to the New Center area. Here's another thing to think about; If there are events going on at Campus Martius this summer especially the jazz festival that will tell you that there will be no street construction for lightrail that would interrupt these events. Think about it.

Think about this. It's a major game day. All avenues Downtown/Midtown are total grid-lock, including intersections. How is the Magic Choo-Choo supposed to get through the intersection, if I can't move forward or backwards to get out of it's way? That was the issue the People Remover was supposed to address.

[iheartthed]

Think about this. It's a major game day. All avenues Downtown/Midtown are total grid-lock, including intersections. How is the Magic Choo-Choo supposed to get through the intersection, if I can't move forward or backwards to get out of it's way? That was the issue the People Remover was supposed to address.

You should read up on the history of the People Mover. Here's a good read to help you out: http://metrotimes.com/covers/how-det...nsit-1.1648373

[Bham1982]

Think about this. It's a major game day. All avenues Downtown/Midtown are total grid-lock, including intersections. How is the Magic Choo-Choo supposed to get through the intersection, if I can't move forward or backwards to get out of it's way? That was the issue the People Remover was supposed to address.

In terms of functionality DPM is probably better than the trolley, because at least it's a grade-separated alignment that doesn't compete with any existing transit, and doesn't restrict auto traffic. It's complementary to existing

[Mackinaw]

How does a straight line through the densest, most developed and development-ready part of the city compare to an elevated loop around a portion of the CBD that can be walked??? DPM is just a fancy version of fortress rat-tunnels that were all the rage in the 1970s, when people were petrified of city streets and simultaneously had visions of downtowns that looked like the Jetson's world. DPM was a magic carpet from your office to the convention center or parking spot.

M1 is a corridor system for daily use. It connects, in either direction, places where people live to places where people work or go to school. It connects places where out of towners stay to places where they want to see [[DIA/museum district, e.g.). It connects places where people live, work, or stay to places were major events happen [[3 stadia and at least a half dozen theatres, to start), providing easy access. And it connects the regional train station, which may and should eventually welcome people arriving from DTW via rail, to the entirety of the city's core. For those whose are accustomed only to driving in from OC, for those who know few if any people who live in downtown or midtown, for those whose circles are so elite that they don't know any WSU students, for those that never arrive via train from Ann Arbor, KZoo or CHI, for those who prefer the 55 cab ride from DTW rather than proposed alternative, for those who only know about Beaumont and have no knowledge of the size and scope of the DMC and its employee base, for those who have no clue where junior level employees of GM, Quicken, Compuware, or other downtown tenants live, for those who aren't embarrassed that every visitor to the City needs to rent a car even for a trip to the center city, and for those who don't believe that the city could attract people who CHOOSE to live in its central areas BECAUSE of the availability of a new lifestyle and new OPTION formerly available only in other great American cities, M1 is easily written off as the new DPM. For those with any knowledge of the circumstances and any appreciation of where this city is headed, M1 is worlds different from DPM, and moves us drastically forward.

Rapid and reliable, comprehensive REGIONAL transit is ALSO needed, and this is not that. If you want that, champion and vote for RTA funding. Work against I-94 expansion. I know I will.

M1, however, only helps and does not hurt.

[ghettopalmetto]

Think about this. It's a major game day. All avenues Downtown/Midtown are total grid-lock, including intersections. How is the Magic Choo-Choo supposed to get through the intersection, if I can't move forward or backwards to get out of it's way? That was the issue the People Remover was supposed to address.

Because Lord knows, this is the first time a streetcar has been built anywhere in the world. No one has ever solved the problem of streetcars being stuck in traffic. I once tried taking the Baltimore light rail after an Orioles game, and cars were just parked across the tracks left-and-right. All the other personal automobiles, however, were able to take off like harrier jets in order to get to the freeway on-ramp.

Invest $140 million of private money in Detroit, and excuses come out of the woodwork. It's a miracle that more people aren't lined up to do business in the region.

[Mackinaw]

ghettopalmetto: word.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'd kind of like Bham, our Resident Transit Expert, to explain how Portland's street-running downtown streetcar is grade-separated with widely-spaced stations. Maybe he's confusing it with the Max Light Rail. But that couldn't be possible, because Bham is never wrong. About anything. But especially transit. Which he rides all the time.

[Bham1982]

How does a straight line through the densest, most developed and development-ready part of the city compare to an elevated loop around a portion of the CBD that can be walked???

In terms of urbanity, and functionality, DPM I don't see how DPM is at least as good or better. DPM runs through the densest, most transit-friendly portion of the city, and does it without harming existing transit or mobility. Also, unlike the trolley, it complements future plans for regional transit.

[believe14]

This time it's different! Promise!

Insanity: doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results.

[Bham1982]

I'd kind of like Bham, our Resident Transit Expert, to explain how Portland's street-running downtown streetcar is grade-separated with widely-spaced stations. Maybe he's confusing it with the Max Light Rail. But that couldn't be possible, because Bham is never wrong. About anything. But especially transit. Which he rides all the time.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

If you go back to what I wrote, I wrote that most Portland light rail is grade separated, high speed and widely spaced stations [[this is now the third time I wrote this). All of this is true.

The fact that a tiny portion of Portland light rail runs on street level does not somehow constitute blanket endorsement of Detroit's toonerville trolley. Because Portland's rail is 5% street-running does not mean that a 100% street-running system automatically makes sense in another city.

[bailey]

Light rail capacity is not similar to a bus. Please stop. A single modern light rail car will carry roughly 90 - 100 passengers. Most at-grade modern systems have minimum 2 cars per train, so at a minimum we're talking 180 - 200 passengers per train, minimum. An articulated bus has a maximum capacity of roughly 90-100, so it takes two articulated buses to match the minimum of one train. However, this is a moot point because Detroit hasn't used articulated buses in quite a while. So Detroit buses have a capacity of around 60 passengers. Which means you need at least 3 Detroit buses to match a street car train. So a single train will add the equivalent of 3 buses for each trip between New Center and downtown. How exactly does that not improve transit for people in midtown and downtown? Doesn't more mean good?

Thinking outside the 3 miles of a part of Woodward here...as we're all begin told we're supposed to be doing... Going with your numbers [[which I didn't look up, but sound reasonable enough) What happens when those 180-200 passengers get off at Grand Blvd and need to continue on up to 8 mile and beyond for their job on buses that only hold 1/3 of that? are there going to be three buses standing by to receive them?

[ghettopalmetto]

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

If you go back to what I wrote, I wrote that most Portland light rail is grade separated, high speed and widely spaced stations [[this is now the third time I wrote this). All of this is true.

The fact that a tiny portion of Portland light rail runs on street level does not somehow constitute blanket endorsement of Detroit's toonerville trolley. Because Portland's rail is 5% street-running does not mean that a 100% street-running system makes sense in another city.

No, you said most of Portland's STREETCAR is grade-separated, high-speed, with widely-spaced stations. This is NOT true. The Streetcar is a completely separate system from the MAX. I even shared a link. You [[obviously) ignored it.

If you can't tell the difference between "streetcar" and "light rail", I hardly think you get to claim any kind of authority on the subject of transit.

[Bham1982]

No, you said most of Portland's STREETCAR is grade-separated, high-speed, with widely-spaced stations. This is NOT true. The Streetcar is a completely separate system from the MAX. I even shared a link. You [[obviously) ignored it.

No, you're just making up stuff.

Here is exactly what I wrote [[now for the 4th time)-

Portland has rapid transit light rail, not a streetcar. It's overwhelmingly grade-separated, high speed, with widely spaced stations. It's basically the complete opposite of the Detroit streetcar.

If you can't tell the difference between "streetcar" and "light rail", I hardly think you get to claim any kind of authority on the subject of transit.

Again, you're clueless. In the U.S. all three terms connote light rail, and are typically used interchangably. APTA classifies all low capacity light rail services in the exact same manner, no matter what the official name.

[ghettopalmetto]

No, you're just making up stuff.

Here is exactly what I wrote [[now for the 4th time)-

Portland has rapid transit light rail, not a streetcar. It's overwhelmingly grade-separated, high speed, with widely spaced stations. It's basically the complete opposite of the Detroit streetcar.

Again, you're clueless. In the U.S. all three terms connote light rail, and are typically used interchangably. APTA classifies all low capacity light rail services in the exact same manner, no matter what the official name.

Portland has light rail. AND Portland has a streetcar. So does Seattle. And Toronto. That streetcar was what I mentioned originally. YOU, sir, changed the subject to "light rail". The terms are *not* interchangeable, as the two modes differ in scope, range, speed, vehicle type, and operating characteristics. Next, you'll tell us that the Long Island Railroad is "light rail" too.

Detroit is getting a streetcar. Privately funded. Not light rail. Never was getting light rail. Don't like it? Go sit in traffic on the freeway. Nobody is twisting your arm to ride it.

But please, do continue to educate the rest of us. I mean, since you ride transit all the time, you know how this stuff works, right?

Just a suggestion: you might want to get out of Oakland County once in a while. It's a pretty fantastic world out there.

[DetroitPlanner]

Portland has light rail. AND Portland has a streetcar. So does Seattle. And Toronto. That streetcar was what I mentioned originally. YOU, sir, changed the subject to "light rail". The terms are *not* interchangeable, as the two modes differ in scope, range, speed, vehicle type, and operating characteristics. Next, you'll tell us that the Long Island Railroad is "light rail" too.

Detroit is getting a streetcar. Privately funded. Not light rail. Never was getting light rail. Don't like it? Go sit in traffic on the freeway. Nobody is twisting your arm to ride it.

But please, do continue to educate the rest of us. I mean, since you ride transit all the time, you know how this stuff works, right?

They may not be interchangable but a Streetcar is a form of light rail. All light rail means are tracks that are too small to carry heavy rail [[Amtrak/Freight).

[bailey]

M1 is a corridor system for daily use. It connects, in either direction, places where people live to places where people work or go to school. It connects places where out of towners stay to places where they want to see [[DIA/museum district, e.g.). It connects places where people live, work, or stay to places were major events happen [[3 stadia and at least a half dozen theatres, to start), providing easy access.

which, of course is ALREADY connected by buses along the busiest and most trafficked bus lines in the system. but of course, buses are for the poors.

Rapid and reliable, comprehensive REGIONAL transit is ALSO needed, and this is not that.

Agreed. which is why it should be aborted.

[bailey]

Detroit is getting a streetcar. Privately funded. Not light rail. Never was getting light rail.

... which taxpayers will have to pick up the tab for running in 10 years. [[not to mention the 40 million-ish in road funds upfront to reconstruct woodward)

[ghettopalmetto]

... which taxpayers will have to pick up the tab for running in 10 years. [[not to mention the 40 million-ish in road funds upfront to reconstruct woodward)

Which is a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 billion+ for an unneeded expansion of I-94 and the associated maintenance costs.

[Honky Tonk]

Because Lord knows, this is the first time a streetcar has been built anywhere in the world. No one has ever solved the problem of streetcars being stuck in traffic. I once tried taking the Baltimore light rail after an Orioles game, and cars were just parked across the tracks left-and-right. All the other personal automobiles, however, were able to take off like harrier jets in order to get to the freeway on-ramp.

Invest $140 million of private money in Detroit, and excuses come out of the woodwork. It's a miracle that more people aren't lined up to do business in the region.

Thanx for making my point for me. The M-1 Blight Rail was being touted as being able turn red lights green and being faster then buses, and being able to carry thousands of passengers @ once. In reality, this is turning out to be just B/S propaganda. It won't really be capable of doing any of that. Exactly what people predicted was going to happen, is happening. It looks like there isn't going to be a larger mass transit system. It isn't going to be part of a larger spoked wheel system to take commuters to other areas of Metro Detroit. In fact, the RTA, as I posted earlier, has been disbanded. All the Blight Rail will end up being is the choo-choo in Gilbertville and Ilitchville, just like the train in Greenfield Village. Drawing these kinds of investors, on the backs of taxpayers, isn't my idea of making the City "better". As far as your "Harrier Jet" comment, @ least those were privately purchased, and not funded by the taxpaying public.

[bailey]

Which is a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 billion+ for an unneeded expansion of I-94 and the associated maintenance costs.

being against the former doesn't equate to supporting the later.

but, in the end we're getting both... so, yippee!

[iheartthed]

Thinking outside the 3 miles of a part of Woodward here...as we're all begin told we're supposed to be doing... Going with your numbers [[which I didn't look up, but sound reasonable enough) What happens when those 180-200 passengers get off at Grand Blvd and need to continue on up to 8 mile and beyond for their job on buses that only hold 1/3 of that? are there going to be three buses standing by to receive them?

People who need to go to points beyond will probably not use the light rail at all. This shouldn't happen in lieu of the bus route and we shouldn't think of it that way either. This is meant for people who will need to travel along those 3 miles, which is not an insignificant distance. For comparison, Manhattan at its widest point is less than 2.5 miles, and most of it is less than 2 miles wide. The city of Paris is less than 6 miles across at its widest point. So this can be a useful transit option even if it does not extend beyond the Grand Blvd.

[ghettopalmetto]

People who need to go to points beyond will probably not use the light rail at all. This shouldn't happen in lieu of the bus route and we shouldn't think of it that way either. This is meant for people who will need to travel along those 3 miles, which is not an insignificant distance. For comparison, Manhattan at its widest point is less than 2.5 miles, and most of it is less than 2 miles wide. The city of Paris is less than 6 miles across at its widest point. So this can be a useful transit option even if it does not extend beyond the Grand Blvd.

But what if I want to go from my home on 50,000 Mile Road to IKEA in Canton? Then the M-1 Rail does me no good. Therefore, nobody should be allowed to build it. Better yet, Dan Gilbert needs to spend his money on widening the roads in my area, so I can save 30 seconds on my 1000-mile commute each day.

[dtowncitylover]

This was truly a painful thread to read.

I'm not going to stand here and say that this M-1 Rail is the best thing for the city. If I had $500 million I would build the original DTOGS plan [[which Channel 7 still uses when they talk about this). However I think it's, on one hand, commendable that the business community has taken initiative to partially fund this because at least they know transit is key for creating a vibrant, urban core. On the other hand, they were completely ignorant in bringing this about doing everything on their own.

I have, like alot of people, reserved faith in this. I think the powers that be are doing this in good faith and I don't buy into any theory that they are still the henchman for the auto companies and this will ultimately be cancelled. If it's cancelled it will be because of internal money issues not some GM payoff.

I understand why some people are calling this a boondoggle. But it's because they've never seen a transit project come so close to completion. The foreign is scary and therefore must be squashed and ridiculed. M-1 is very different that the People Mover. Besides the fact they are two completely different technologies, M-1 connects three different and distinct places and has the possibility of expansion. DPM simply goes around and around and around...which has the better potential for growth and good in the community?

[bailey]

But what if I want to go from my home on 50,000 Mile Road to IKEA in Canton? Then the M-1 Rail does me no good. Therefore, nobody should be allowed to build it. Better yet, Dan Gilbert needs to spend his money on widening the roads in my area, so I can save 30 seconds on my 1000-mile commute each day.

So, basically, you've got to resort to absurd straw-man arguments as a defense for this?

[bailey]

People who need to go to points beyond will probably not use the light rail at all. This shouldn't happen in lieu of the bus route and we shouldn't think of it that way either. This is meant for people who will need to travel along those 3 miles, which is not an insignificant distance. For comparison, Manhattan at its widest point is less than 2.5 miles, and most of it is less than 2 miles wide. The city of Paris is less than 6 miles across at its widest point. So this can be a useful transit option even if it does not extend beyond the Grand Blvd.

I didn't realize Woodward along those three miles was totally devoid of any form of transit now. Whew, glad M1 is going to fill that glaring void and not be in anyway redundant.